Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[MountainKing]

Shhhhhhhh! Let the man finish his batrep!

[Winterwind]

Shhhhhhhh! Let the man finish his batrep!

While I'm certainly eager to hear that battle report - Cheesegear's battle reports are always quite entertaining (and inspirational - the battle reports I write in the WHFB thread are, I'm freely admitting that, greatly influenced by Cheesegear's style) - I'd still rather know if this is indeed how one deals with Webway Portals.

Matter of fact, there was a lot more in that post that I would have been interested in hearing more about, too - whether my proposed strategy of dealing with Ymgarls would be viable, whether flamers are really generally bad and there is some decidedly better option or whether, in the metagame I described, they would actually be useful, whether my reasoning regarding "suicide Sternguard" is sound - and having a large post just completely ignored is not exactly encouraging when it comes to me wondering if I'm a contributing poster in this thread, or just, to use Cheesegear's phrase, "talking out of my arse".

[crazedloon]

Just thought I should clear up a few things.

A webway portal is a small template and it is you table edge for units in it. The only way to negate it is to sit a full unit on the portal. Models move infrom the template edge and act normally which tens to involve raiders and wychs in your face

As for the kroot conga line, the solution is tank shock or skimers. The first moves the kroot out of the way and the second igmores them

[Gruffard]

I thought they came out immediately, or do they come out as per random results from reserves?

[Klose_the_Sith]

As for the kroot conga line, the solution is tank shock or skimers. The first moves the kroot out of the way and the second igmores them

Can you tank shock on from reserves?

[MountainKing]

Can you tank shock on from reserves?

I'm pretty sure you can't... deploying from Reserves isn't really a move, is it?

[SmartAlec]

What list is this that can start entirely in reserve and yet somehow come out of it laughing?

Mechanised Eldar. A selection of Howling Banshees, Guardians and Fire Dragons all mounted in Wave Serpents and Falcons with Fire Prism support, usually led by an Autarch. They can dance about until they have enough of their force ready, the wargear and the annoyance for their tanks to escape most attempts to take them down, and the speed to pull out a co-ordinated strike from nowhere.

Tau can pull something similar, though their co-ordinated strikes are from a much longer range. Dark Eldar have trouble with it because their tanks are too darn fragile to hang around waiting for others.

[crazedloon]

as per the rules coming in from reserve is a normal move measured from the table edge (so you don't even need room to place the model where it moves from thus the reason you can tank shock on) I found this out when I decided to be that guy at a local GW big game and did the full table deployment to defeat an opposing force who stayed in reserve. Needless to say half a turn later and half my stuff was crushed under super heavy tred or running.

also a webway is a special kind of reserve. You must roll for every unit as normal but they can not be deployed unit the webway is. The reason it is so effective (and occasionally feared) is becuase you can roll and a unit becomes available but if they portal is not open they can not come in, but when it is deployed they are available (the next turn since you can not come out of a just deployed portal) This means you tend to have all the things in it ready to go the turn you open it since the earliest it will open is turn 2 so turn 3 to come out meaning a turn of 4+ and 3+ or you can use it as a strategic reserve and not have too much in there just enough to finish off a weakened opponent who has nothing to deal with what lies in wait.

[lord_khaine]

'm absolutely with Cheesegear on this one. I've seen first hand how badly Chaos Daemons can be screwed over by their deployment rules, and those are vastly better than having the entire army in reserve.

Well, thinking about it i have seen him do it twice, both time was major victories.

What list is this that can start entirely in reserve and yet somehow come out of it laughing?

Its either Blood Angels or Black Templars, cant recall what he was playing while doing the reserve thing.

Anyway, onward to more important things, namely my latest battle report,
my Eldar and some Space Wolfs vs Iron Fist Space Marines.

Our Army

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Farseer
10 Banshee's in Waveserpent
10 dire avengers
10 Guardians with warlock and BL
Wraithlord

2 rune priests with living lightning
2 groups of grey hunters in rino
1 group of longfangs

the IFSM

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2 Dreanoughts in drop pod
1 Ironclad in drop pod
3 landspeeders
2 tacticals in rhino
1 assult squard with jump packs
1 chaplain
1 predator tank

the Mission was simple, we had a deployment zone with a 12 inc radius centered on the table, where we was suposed to hold a objective, while our opponent could deploy on the rest of the table, with his heavy support and hq starting in reserve.

Deployment

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We placed the long fangs and the guardians in the ruins covering the northern part of the DZ, while the Wraithlord took the eastern flank, the Dire Avengers the southern part, and the tanks was placed in the middle.

Our opponent placed 3 land speeders behind cover in the far northen part, and a rhino in both the SE and the SW corner

turn 1

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The wave serpent moved a bit north, and startet firering on the hidden land speeders, knocking a couple of holes in the ruins they were hiding behind, while the wraithlord shot a Bright lance and a missile in the general direction of the SE rhino.

the first runepriest then moved a bit north, and blastet some more holes in the cover that was hiding the land speeders, while the second one took a couple of additional shots on the SE rhino, without any luck.

A couple of droppods then came crashing down in the middle of the battlefield, each containing a Dreadnought armed with an assult cannon and a seismic hammer, the first opening fire on the Longfangs, killing a couple of them, while the second one tried to poke some holes in the wraithlord, without any success.

Meanwhile the landspeeders came out from their cover, where a lucky shot shocked the crew of the wave serpent, preventing them from firering any weapons the following turn.

the 2 southern rhinoes was to far away to do anything, so they merely moved a little closer, and laid out a smoke screen

Turn 2

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having a Dreadnought dropping down right beside them did not scare the guardians, who bravely interposed themself between it and the longfangs, to prevent a eventual charge, while the wraithlord startet to slowly move towards the southern dreadnought, something that fortunately did not prove itself nececary, as the first Runepriest first imobilised it with a luck hit from living lightning then charget in and blew it up with a meltabomb, while the other one was blown up by the longfangs

Meanwhile, the other Runepriest drowe down towards the SE rhine, and blastet it appart.

The Waveserpent, not being able to shoot, moved a bit down south, to get into a better position to place its load of Banshee's

Another drop pod then came crashing down, around the southern edge of our former DZ, containing an Ironclad Dreadnought, while the landspeeders and surviving rhino continued moving closer.

the Ironclad opened fire on the Wave serpent with a multimelta, and only its forcefield saved it, deflecting the shot so it only blew up the turret containing the Bright lance.

the drop pods and landspeeders opened fire on the longfangs with limited luck, since a combination of cover and Fortune from the farseer kept them safe, but the same could not be said for the rhino carrying the southern Runepriest, as it got blown up by a missile from the tactical squard

turn 3

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The northen Runepriest jumped back into his rino and drove off to intercept the SW rhino, while his brother ran down to teach a lesson to the tactical squard that had just bustet his ride up.

the following close combat was brutal, and left only a handful of surviving tactical marines, than unfortunately got locked up in battle with the grey hunters, something that the runepriest didnt survive as he got hit by a power first.

While this was going the Wraithlord ran down to the Ironclad and tore its driver out, suffering a singel hit from its Seismic fist in the process.

It was at this point that the Predator and Assult marines finaly arrived on the southern part of the battlefield.
The Assult marines moved in to assist the 3 surviving tactical marines, while the predator opened fire on the wraithlord.

The assult marines proved a much more dangerous foe, especaly with the assistance of the chaplain, and the grey hunter pack was reduced to 4 man that stubornly stood their ground.

The predator didnt have the same kind of luck, since the smoking remains of the Ironbound gave it cover from its barrage of lascannon blasts.

On the western part of the battlefield the surviving tactical squard jumped out of their rhino, and tried to blast the rhino containing the surviving runepriest, though without any luck.

turn 4

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the farseer drove down south in the Banshee's wave serpent, where he first Doomed the tactical squard on the western front, following a use of Fortune on the grey hunters that was still locked in combat with the assult marines.

Both the dire avengers and the unengaget grey hunters then opened fire on the doomed tactical marines, allmost infliciting enough damage to kill each man in the squard twice.

The southern battle was now starting to get very interesting, the few remaining grey hunters had become unusualy resilient due to the fortune they had recived, and the battle with the tactical squard was growing into a stalemate, with both units reduced to just a couple of men slugging it out among themself.

At this point the IFSM player gave up, the only units he had left was a predator, a landspeeder and the chaplin with a couple of assult marines locked in close combat with some grey hunters that just refused to die.

[Cheesegear]

While I'm certainly eager to hear that battle report - Cheesegear's battle reports are always quite entertaining (and inspirational - the battle reports I write in the WHFB thread are, I'm freely admitting that, greatly influenced by Cheesegear's style)

Not being as up to date on the WHFB thread as I am here, care to link to some of those reports. It's always nice to know that I inspire people to do things.

However, I might see if I can get my WHFB army up to scratch and play a few games. Maybe then I might frequent the WHFB thread some more.

whether my proposed strategy of dealing with Ymgarls would be viable

It is.

whether flamers are really generally bad and there is some decidedly better option or whether, in the metagame I described, they would actually be useful

The main thing wrong with Flamers is their short range, and their low AP. If you have a meta-game where you have a lot of opposing Infiltrators (negating the short range), as well as being Guardsmen or 'Nids (having a terrible save), then, yeah, Flamers would be great.

whether my reasoning regarding "suicide Sternguard" is sound

You mean...

At the beginning of the game, you may remove 300 points of your choice from your army. If you do, remove 300 points of your choice from the enemy army.

?
It sounds almost like a M:TG card. But, yes. That is effectively what Sternguard do.

to use Cheesegear's phrase, "talking out of my arse".

When you say this, do you feel more Australian?

The reason [Webway Portals are] so effective (and occasionally feared) is becuase you can roll and a unit becomes available but if they portal is not open they can not come in, but when it is deployed they are available (the next turn since you can not come out of a just deployed portal)

Yep. You smashed the crap out of the nail with a sledgehammer. But, yeah, there is a way you can turn a Portal useless. But, then again, you can always just not deploy the Portal near where your enemies could stand on it. You don't really need to deploy it that close, since things act normally on the turn they come out. 12" moves and Assault moves and everything.

It's slightly trickier than the blunt object that is the Wych Cult. But Portals do work. And every time I see one in a Dark Eldar list, I'm tempted to say "Now you're thinking with Portals!"

A couple of droppods then came crashing down in the middle of the battlefield, each containing a Dreadnought armed with an assult cannon and a seismic hammer,

Uhh...Pretty sure you can't have an Assault Cannon and Seismic Hammer on the same kind of Dreadnought. These were the two 'normal' Dreads, right? And in that case, they sure didn't have Seismic Hammers.

the Ironclad opened fire on the Wave serpent with a multimelta, and only its forcefield saved it, deflecting the shot so it only blew up the turret containing the Bright lance.

Ironclads get Multi-Meltas?
I think you may have your Dreads mixed up. Otherwise, good report.

On a more general note, I really think that when writing Battle Reports, people really do need to give their ICs names. It gives the battle a more...Personal touch rather than 'My Captain did this, then he did that.' It also makes it more 'epic'. As, over a series of battle reports, you can make references to previous battles or characters, and your readers can get a sense of familiarity with your army, and how your tactics run.

Also, I wish people would use adjectives. It makes the battle so much more exciting. A little bit of a story doesn't hurt either. It's okay. You're allowed to make it up after the battle.

[Winterwind]

Anyway, onward to more important things, namely my latest battle report, [...]

Nice read. Thanks for that.

Not being as up to date on the WHFB thread as I am here, care to link to some of those reports. It's always nice to know that I inspire people to do things.

Funny you'd ask that, I already got a PM yesterday asking me to do the exact same thing.

But, it leaves me in the convenient position of already having gathered all these links yesterday and just having to post here what I put into my response PM:

Against Lizardmen. My first WHFB game ever.
Against Skaven.
Against Empire.
Against Skaven again. I play a lot against Skaven.
Against Lizardmen. I love Lizardmen. Fun to watch no matter which side of the fence you're on.
Against Wood Elves. Special in that it was my first... but no, no spoilers. Also, game against Orcs&Goblins in the same post.
Against High Elves. Huh. I didn't even remember I've ever won against High Elves.
I think that was the last report in the 7th edition, the other ones being in the 8th one.
Against Daemons. Not so much a regular report though as me complaining about the stupidity of some people.
Against Warriors of Chaos. Probably the best one so far, and imitating the Cheesegear style the most closely.
Against Skaven. The latest one.

Huh, odd, I thought I had far more 8th edition reports by now.

I admittedly have a tendency to post my victories slightly more often than my losses (easier to motivate oneself to write the whole thing that way) . I hope I didn't miss any battle reports; those are from both WHFB threads.

However, I might see if I can get my WHFB army up to scratch and play a few games. Maybe then I might frequent the WHFB thread some more.

Yay!

It is.

The main thing wrong with Flamers is their short range, and their low AP. If you have a meta-game where you have a lot of opposing Infiltrators (negating the short range), as well as being Guardsmen or 'Nids (having a terrible save), then, yeah, Flamers would be great.

Alright. Keeping the few flamers I have in my army, then.

?
It sounds almost like a M:TG card. But, yes. That is effectively what Sternguard do.

Probably not coincidental, as I also play M:tG (even more casually than Warhammer, but still).

When you say this, do you feel more Australian?

Actually, yes, somewhat.
Though, it's British, too, and we were taught British English at school, so it doesn't sound all that unusual to me...


EDIT: I really, really, really need to cut down on my smilies.
EDIT2: Damnit!

[Trixie]

Well, thinking about it i have seen him do it twice, both time was major victories.

Its either Blood Angels or Black Templars, cant recall what he was playing while doing the reserve thing.

Black Templars? No way. Maybe Descent of Angels + Vanguard/Sainguinaries assaulting the crap out of everything on the turn they land?

Hmmm, in this one regard, BA Codex is incredibly climatic.

Because I just said. The difference between Calgar and Lysander isn't that much. For 50 points. Calgar can shoot. Lysander makes the squad he's with shoot better. Especially important when using Vengeance Rounds with your Sternguard.

Eh, Calgar's AP2 SBolter beats the expected gain from Lysander easily, even without taking his BS and re-rollable wounds into account.

Second, Lysander has a 3+ Invulnerable. It counts for a lot.

Vs Calgar's 4+ and a lot more attacks.

Lysander also busts Land Raiders and Monoliths with ease.

YPB? I don't remember, can Calgar use hi re-roll ability on the vehicles, too? Even if not, Lysander has on average 1 penetration roll. Calgar 2-3. It is much easier to not penetrate with Lysander, and even if Calgar doesn't obtain so good results lots of glances with turn both vehicles you mentioned into bricks.

And can one-shot Warbosses.

If said Warboss has Power Klaw, Calgar simply pulls his Power Sword, trick Lysander cannot replicate, and kills him before he strikes, not simultaneously with him. Sure, Lysander can kill Warboss, but he will do a lot of damage in return.

No he doesn't. It costs 15 points.

No. Teleport Homer is. TA is free

It's not Chapter Tactics.

Yes, right. Small, but crucial difference.

I guess because Calgar has Combat Tactics, the idea is that when you take another SC, they replace Calgar's CTs with their own ChT making Calgar part of the Chapter that you're trying to make.

Hmmm, I don't know. In this case, though, if that was the intention, they should make Calgar 50 pts cheaper, and make God of War extra +50 pts ability.

Sigh. I still think Calgar is a lot better than Lysander, but you're right he is best with other Ultramarine ICs.

And yes, Lysander has better synergy with Kantor or Vulcan. A pity. Still, I'm surprised anyone allowed allowed you to field both of them after this whole 'IFs are not allowed to field Grey-Hunter-like-squads' spiel :P

They're not Fearless.

Ok, have it your way - Fearless in all but name and very, very occasionally failed Pinning Check but not taking any Fearless wounds or other disadvantages at all :P

Hmmm, I think my version was a bit shorter and to the point :P

Both? By my count there's five...

Both. The other three Chapter Masters have best armors of their Chapters, while Calgar and Pedro walk in cheapo PA you give to any Devastator Squad recruit.

Pedro...Well...They don't have too many suits of Terminator or Artificer Armour around. What with their armoury detonating...You wont recover too much from that kind of explosion.

Except all the good armors should have been on the bodies of 1st Company guys, who mostly survived.

And, if you field Crimson Fists, you can easily make a list containing lost of artificer armors, making Calgar stick out like a sore thumb.

By the way, did I read this right recently it is was Officio Assasinorum (or whatever it is called) that detonated their Fortress, not the Orks?

I think he's roughly on par with Sicarius on the "What's competitive?" scale.

Can you describe what makes him competitive? The largest FLSG in my region thinks he is pants.

And He'Stan doesn't even have a Battle-Rank, and he still tells Calgar what to do.

To be fair, he was Captain before, and was promoted. So, he is higher than other IC Captains. Plus, he can tell his own Chapter Master to jump, only to hear 'how high?' in response.

Azrael is pants. Just like every DA Character.

Um, what? If Belial (?) was C:SM character, he would have been one of the most popular, if not the most popular.

Camo Cloaks...And...Bolters!? The nonsensery of the entire sentence boggles my mind. You're aware you can get Tactical Marines instead, right? ...For the same points cost!?

Infiltrate/Rapidfire?

The second Ciaphas Cain omnibus. YES! As well as another book. Double YES!

You mean the Spees Mahreens one? If so, that's old news, but still, it's the only book off this list I'll surely get

Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...

I believe the question was about superheavies. Tau do get a lot of good stuff in IA. Though, not a lot as good as SM/IG. Still, I like Tigersharks.

[Cheesegear]

Eh, Calgar's AP2 SBolter beats the expected gain from Lysander easily, even without taking his BS and re-rollable wounds into account.

Calgar's 2 AP2 shots beats rerolling all misses from your Sternguard? I do believe that that's a lie.

Vs Calgar's 4+ and a lot more attacks.

A lot more? One.

I don't remember, can Calgar use hi re-roll ability on the vehicles, too?

No. Armour Penetration is not 'To Wound'.

Sigh. I still think Calgar is a lot better than Lysander, but you're right he is best with other Ultramarine ICs.

And yet I still don't take Calgar. There's a reason for that. He's not worth the 50 points over Lysander.

And yes, Lysander has better synergy with Kantor or Vulcan.

Lysander doesn't synergise at all with He'Stan. No-one does.

Hmmm, I think my version was a bit shorter and to the point :P

It was also wrong.

By the way, did I read this right recently it is was Officio Assasinorum (or whatever it is called) that detonated their Fortress, not the Orks?

No. The Crimson Fists blew it up themselves. By accident.

Can you describe what makes him competitive? The largest FLSG in my region thinks he is pants.

Who? Sicarius or Azrael?

Um, what? If Belial (?) was C:SM character, he would have been one of the most popular, if not the most popular.

Read the whole thread. We already discussed that, to me, 'pants' does not mean bad. And Belial is also not a Space Marine character anyway, so your argument is moot.

Infiltrate/Rapidfire?

Drop Pod, Rapid Fire. For not that many extra points.
Sicarius, Rapid Fire.
Shrike. Do whatever you want.

[Trixie]

Calgar's 2 AP2 shots beats rerolling all misses from your Sternguard? I do believe that that's a lie.

You believe various fishy things when it comes to statistics ;P

Let's see - simply skipping the 'armor save' part beats Sternguard by big margin in all cases but one - when they rapid-fire AP3 shots. This, however, happens rarely, as these bolts have small rapidfire range, and you'll rarely enter it. Even suiciders don't use them that often as they're busy using meltas.

And, when enemy has 2+ save, Calgar beats re-rolling SG by colossal margin.

But to prove my point, let's assume they indeed rapidfired AP3 ammo: 20 shots, 6 misses, out of these 6 re-rolled, 4 are hits, 1.333 wounds vs T4. Averages to 1. Calgar? 2 hits, 2 wounds in all but 1/36 cases. And, it's assault weapon. Oh, much worse :P

A lot more? One.

On paper. Lysander, though, loses every 1/6 attack failing to wound against MEQs, Calgar every 1/36. So, that's another attack lost in less than two player turns of fighting. When enemy has higher T, Lysander performs even worse than that.

Simply put, Lysander has much greater potential to fail in crucial moment, especially with his ~1 penetrate on average. Calgar throws enough dice to make averages somewhat work.

No. Armour Penetration is not 'To Wound'.

Ok.

And yet I still don't take Calgar. There's a reason for that. He's not worth the 50 points over Lysander.

Eh, God of War alone would be worth that much over Stubborn, but when you add Power Sword, Orbital Bombardment, Sweeping Advance, re-rollable wounds with everything he has, including bombardment, AP2 Bolter, and all the extra nifty things M.C. gets Lysander loses pretty much all attractiveness.

Only when GoW is denied Lysander becomes good alternative.

Lysander doesn't synergise at all with He'Stan. No-one does.

So, his TH is master-crafted already? Ok. Still, units that you said synergise well with Vulcan synergise well with Lysander, which should be enough

There are more than 2 of them on the table, after all.

It was also wrong.

Wrong in how little cases? 1/36? :P

I prefer brevity when it is obvious what I wanted to say.

No. The Crimson Fists blew it up themselves. By accident.

From http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=124027 :

There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents...

Who? Sicarius or Azrael?

Sicarius, though preferably both :P

Read the whole thread. We already discussed that, to me, 'pants' does not mean bad.

Eh, I agree with had been said - saying 'pants' is indication something is bad, not good. Is it Australian regionalism? If so, please be precise in the future ;)

And Belial is also not a Space Marine character anyway, so your argument is moot.

I think you explicitly compared them to SM characters in the quoted post, so no, it isn't ;)

Sicarius, Rapid Fire.

How? Is is one of the skill he gives? If so, okay, till, you have to take Sicarius for this, instead of (IMHO) better ones ;)

Shrike. Do whatever you want.

Fleeting does not synergise with rapid-fire at all. Unless you meant his other ability. Which does not guarantee RF either.

[Ninja Chocobo]

If said Warboss has Power Klaw, Calgar simply pulls his Power Sword, trick Lysander cannot replicate, and kills him before he strikes, not simultaneously with him. Sure, Lysander can kill Warboss, but he will do a lot of damage in return.

Funny thing, said Power Sword means he can't get +1A from his Gauntlets. Page 42, "Two different special weapons".

Calgar? 2 hits, 2 wounds in all but 1/36 cases. And, it's assault weapon. Oh, much worse :P

Eh? Two hits I can see, but the chance of failing a 4+ re-rollable is 1/4. You're getting 1.5 wounds on average.

e: 3s to wound gives you a 1/9 chance of failing, or ~1.8 wounds.
e2: Also the chances of failing one of two 2+ re-rollables is 1/18, since there's two of them.
e3: My these are stacking up. Against T4 Calgar will do roughly 1.25 wounds, factoring in his odds of missing.

Eh, I agree with had been said - saying 'pants' is indication something is bad, not good. Is it Australian regionalism? If so, please be precise in the future ;)

Being as I'm the one who first pointed that out...
It irritates me when people think that Cheesegear == Australian, ergo Australian == Cheesegear.

[Cheesegear]

This, however, happens rarely, as these bolts have small rapidfire range, and you'll rarely enter it. Even suiciders don't use them that often as they're busy using meltas.

Lies. And lies. The Rapid Fire range is 12". Same as every other Rapid Fire weapon. And you only fire Meltas once. And, probably not even then. What if there are no tanks on the board? What if there are no targets for the Meltas?

And, when enemy has 2+ save, Calgar beats re-rolling SG by colossal margin.

All few of them. Terminators, Meganobs and two TMCs, maybe three. Except I thought that Sternguard shot Meltas?

Eh, God of War alone would be worth that much over Stubborn...

But not over Bolster Defenses as well. Nor a 3+ Invulernable. Once again, the 3+ counts for a lot, and the ability to give roughly two or three units - or any unit over the course of the game - a 3+ Cover Save...

So, his TH is master-crafted already? Ok. Still, units that you said synergise well with Vulcan synergise well with Lysander, which should be enough

No they don't. Lysander synergises with anything that carries a Bolter-related wepaon. And Bolster Defenses, which He'Stan doesn't help in the slightest.

He'Stan only works if you build around him.

From http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=124027 :

Been retconned. Nearly all of that page is 2nd Ed. Fluff. Rynn's World now exists as a novel. And takes precendent over everything that isn't a current Codex.

Remember how 2nd Ed. Fluff also sucks? Why would the Officio destroy Crimson Fists? They're one of the single-most loyal Chapters in the setting. Moreso even than some of the 1st Founding.

Which is weird, because the original IA for the Crimson Fists is 2003. And Codex: Assassins (2nd Ed.) in 1997. Newest fluff takes precedence. I don't have to like it, but it's true.

If so, please be precise in the future ;)

I thought I was.

I think you explicitly compared them to SM characters in the quoted post

No I didn't.

How? Is is one of the skill he gives? If so, okay, till, you have to take Sicarius for this, instead of (IMHO) better ones ;)

Sicarius is one of the better ones.

Fleeting does not synergise with rapid-fire at all. Unless you meant his other ability. Which does not guarantee RF either.

That's kind of the point. You shouldn't have Bolter-Scouts when you run Shrike. Bolter-Scouts are bad.

[SmartAlec]

Been retconned. Nearly all of that page is 2nd Ed. Fluff. Rynn's World now exists as a novel. And takes precendent over everything that isn't a current Codex.

Remember how 2nd Ed. Fluff also sucks? Why would the Officio destroy Crimson Fists? They're one of the single-most loyal Chapters in the setting. Moreso even than some of the 1st Founding.

I don't think Rynn's World explains it either; many of the characters say that it must have been an accident, but anyone who actually knows is killed in the explosion.

[lord_khaine]

Uhh...Pretty sure you can't have an Assault Cannon and Seismic Hammer on the same kind of Dreadnought. These were the two 'normal' Dreads, right? And in that case, they sure didn't have Seismic Hammers.

I gotta admit, i wasnt really apying much attention to the specific weapons of the dreadnough, since it was busy singing "its raining men", while trying to figure out how to get rid of the 2 dreadnoughts that suddenly crashed down into the middle of my army.

Ironclads get Multi-Meltas?
I think you may have your Dreads mixed up. Otherwise, good report.

On a more general note, I really think that when writing Battle Reports, people really do need to give their ICs names. It gives the battle a more...Personal touch rather than 'My Captain did this, then he did that.' It also makes it more 'epic'. As, over a series of battle reports, you can make references to previous battles or characters, and your readers can get a sense of familiarity with your army, and how your tactics run.

It is possible i am mixing something up, though i am pretty sure it was the last surviving Dread who tried to bust open my farseers personal ride.

besides that i agree, and have even named my Farseer sir Robin, after the mounty python movie, but i simply forgot about it, since he really didnt get to do anything in that battle.

edit.

Black Templars? No way. Maybe Descent of Angels + Vanguard/Sainguinaries assaulting the crap out of everything on the turn they land?

Hmmm, in this one regard, BA Codex is incredibly climatic.

Nahh, he really isnt using that kind of units.

he is usualy using a land raider, some land speeders and a lot of rinoes, as well as a stormraven sometime.

Ill ask him about the details netx time i talk with him.

[Zorg]

Crimson Fists have been responsible for blowing up their own FM since Rogue Trader (it was an errant defence missile that landed on their armoury).

[Trixie]

Page 42, "Two different special weapons".

I'm aware of this. And?

Eh? Two hits I can see, but the chance of failing a 4+ re-rollable is 1/4. You're getting 1.5 wounds on average.

Which is still better than 1.333, especially when that 1.333 turns out to be 0.222 when enemy has 2+ save :P

And besides, I used CG's methodology there.

Being as I'm the one who first pointed that out...
It irritates me when people think that Cheesegear == Australian, ergo Australian == Cheesegear.

I asked him if that is the case, not assumed it :P

Lies. And lies. The Rapid Fire range is 12". Same as every other Rapid Fire weapon.

Ah, so it's not simply half the range? Never used it with anything other than bolters. Good to know. It means Tau are worse than I thought :P

And you only fire Meltas once. And, probably not even then. What if there are no tanks on the board? What if there are no targets for the Meltas?

Except S8 AP1 shot that IDs 98% of the targets on 2+ is always better than 2 S4 AP3 shots. If enemy has no vehicles, good, you can kill his heaviest infantry and HQs, then. The only cases where Bolters are better are when all enemy units are T2 or he is using only IG megasquads :P

You already sunk points for melta, why not use them? That will prevent the casualties from taking points that did nothing from your list.

Really, if there are no targets for meltas, something very weird is going on.

All few of them. Terminators, Meganobs and two TMCs, maybe three.

Sanguinary guard. 2 dozen different ICs. Honor guard. Units with Feel No Pain. You know, all the worthy targets? :P

Nor a 3+ Invulernable.

Vs 4+? I'm sad. With your disdain for Rollhammer, you should say they're pretty much the same ;P

No they don't. Lysander synergises with anything that carries a Bolter-related wepaon. And Bolster Defenses, which He'Stan doesn't help in the slightest.

He'Stan only works if you build around him.

Just three units for example: Sternguard, Hammernators, Tactical Marines. Vulcan makes one aspect of them more killy, Lysander the other. It's true in other cases as well. Every time you're not using meltas, you're using something Lysander can give you bonus with. Synergy4eva :P

Been retconned. Nearly all of that page is 2nd Ed. Fluff. Rynn's World now exists as a novel. And takes precendent over everything that isn't a current Codex.

The fragment I cited is from the third. Wasn't it the one you liked the most? :P

Remember how 2nd Ed. Fluff also sucks? Why would the Officio destroy Crimson Fists? They're one of the single-most loyal Chapters in the setting. Moreso even than some of the 1st Founding.

Simple: Ordo Xenos was sick of the attention these pesky demons and heretics were given. After all, everyone knew xenos were the true threat. So, they staged a provocation: Crimson Fists were chosen because their Chapter Master offended the Inquisitor in charge some 60 years ago by not bowing to him. By doing this, they fufilled three goals: A) Waaagh! destroyed; B) Xenos-fighting given more attention; C) More ex-CFs (and from other chapters) joined the Deathwatch. Everyone wins, right? :P

Let me point of that Black Templars and Space Wolves, two most loyal Imperial Chapters, are under useless, constant scrutiny, their geneseed is burned instead of used for new foundings, Inquisition wages constant, petty wars against them that sometimes erupt into big battles, etc. This is also true for Blood Angels and Raven Guard - constant scrutiny, suspicions, rare foundings.

Compare that to outright traitors, like Dark Angels or Ultramarines, who seem to be used for every founding, and you'll see PR matters more than anything.

Which is weird, because the original IA for the Crimson Fists is 2003. And Codex: Assassins (2nd Ed.) in 1997. Newest fluff takes precedence. I don't have to like it, but it's true.

It wasn't 2nd Ed.

I thought I was.

Eh, if the rest of the world understands the word differently, maybe you wasn't ;P

No I didn't.

To what, then?

Sicarius is one of the better ones.

Eh, in what regard is he better than being Slaanesh Chaos Lord lite for more points?

It is possible i am mixing something up, though i am pretty sure it was the last surviving Dread who tried to bust open my farseers personal ride.

Maybe it was normal melta?

Nahh, he really isnt using that kind of units.

he is usualy using a land raider, some land speeders and a lot of rinoes, as well as a stormraven sometime.

Stormraven settles it, then, as antiques like BT don't get access to it :P

[Zorg]

Compare that to outright traitors, like Dark Angels or Ultramarines, who seem to be used for every founding, and you'll see PR matters more than anything.

Well the DA being traitors is wrong, as it was the fallen who turned to chaos and away from the Imperium (And they have very few foundings, despite having one of the purest geneseeds). They are the one of the most self serving, but no more than many others.
And I have no idea what you've got to be smoking to call the Ultras traitors.

Unless you meant that to be two seperate sentances. In which case the Ultras are ridiculous because they're GW's posterboys and have no personality otherwise.

[Penguinizer]

Would a following Chaos Space Marine army be any good for 40k? It isn't exactly optimized, I'm just wondering if it'll even have a chance.

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Karn, the Betrayer

Elite:
6x Terminator
Champion
1x Chain Fist
1x Reaper Autocannon
5x Combi-melta
Other shwag I may have forgotten.

Troops:
9x Berserker
Skull Champion with Power Fist
Glory of Chaos
Other shwag I may have forgotten.

10x Thousand Sons:
Warp time for the champion/leader.
Rhino with a combi melta+extra armor.
Glory of Chaos
Other shwag I may have forgotten.

10x Chaos Space Marines
Champion with power fist.
2x Melta
Glory of Chaos
Rhino with combi melta+extra armor.
Other shwag I may have forgotten about.

HS:
Land Raider
Demonic posession
Extra armor
Dozer blade
combi-melta
other shwag I may have forgotten about.

This is more of an outline than a full list. Does it work as a concept? I calculated it some time ago using the store codex but forgot to write down the details.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe it was normal melta?

Nahh, i remember it being AP 1, so it had to be a multi.

Stormraven settles it, then, as antiques like BT don't get access to it :P

You misunderstand me, he only sometimes use a stormraven (when he isnt playing BA).

[Trixie]

Crimson Fists have been responsible for blowing up their own FM since Rogue Trader (it was an errant defence missile that landed on their armoury).

And how do we know someone didn't 'fix' it?

Well the DA being traitors is wrong, as it was the fallen who turned to chaos and away from the Imperium (And they have very few foundings, despite having one of the purest geneseeds).

Let's start: out of nine founding Legions that stayed loyal, they had the largest part to fall into Chaos during the HH. Larger than, say, Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion who fell after Heresy. Now, they hunt these traitors, up to and above abandoning wars and battlefields because traitor DA showed up on the next planet, burning Imperial worlds and destroying loyal units to keep the secret from leaking. Forming conspiracies spanning multiple Chapters (geee, can anyone say 'HH'?), violating the spirit of SM reform, being fanatical zealots burning everything that doesn't fulfill their arbitrary goals...

Well, if Inquisition ever finds out about conspiracy, their war record, or the Fallen, someone will have to explain why a crusade against them shouldn't be mounted right now.

And I have no idea what you've got to be smoking to call the Ultras traitors.

The very same Legion that waited practically to the end of HH for any fighting, whose Primarch diluted Imperium's strength to very low levels threatening to unleash a second civil war if the rest won't listen to him? The one, that, until Tyranids arrived, sat on their asses on the Eastern Fringe doing virtually nothing? Not even clearing Maelstorm from pirates?

Maybe they're not traitors, but as far as spiritual liegelity is concerned, they shouldn't be at the top.

Oh, and doesn't their Chapter Master walk around in Chaos artifact no one bothered to analyze? Blood Ravens future CM (who was, incidentally, a Librarian) fell after a brief contact with the daemon, yet here is Calgar (and Lysander, for that matter) who pull their rank to not be kicked out from the helm of their Chapters just because they want to keep their shiny new toys? Geee, could that not backfire at some point? ;P

Again, not outright treachery, but something that can turn into it overnight. In both DA and UM case.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Okay. So I'm looking at Sicarius.

Rites of Battle: I play BT, so its hard for me to think of this as special.

Surprise Attack: Ok, but I wouldn't pay points for it as an upgrade.

Battle Forged Heroes: This is pretty good. When is it chosen? When you write the list or before each battle? Counter Attack is amazing on space wolves but the idea of combining it with combat tactics is pretty hilarious (you charge me and I get +1 attack, then I withdraw and charge you for +1 attack). Making a flamer/multimelta squad, combat squading it to seperate the flamer and the multimelta and then infiltrating both could be hilarious (the best infiltrate range is the same as a multi-meltas melta range after all) or even a melta/multi melta squad (infiltrate + standard movement is also melta gun melta range). Maybe even give sarge a combi-melta. Giving them tank hunters isn't bad either because it lets you glance front armour 11 with bolters. Also S7 krak grenades.

Talasarian Tempest Blade: Good against T3-5 enemies. Need a chaplain in the same unit to make it really good though. Can also potentially kill t6 monstrous creatures. Still, simply having a relic blade is probably better.

Mantle of the Suzerien: Useless. 2+ save and feel no pain is pointless since what ignores one ignores the other. A 1/12 chance of suffering a wound just isn't that much better than a 1/6 one. The only scenarios where this would be good are mitigated by putting him in a squad.

Stats: Standard captain, blah.

Point Cost: This is what really matters to be honest. There are no useless or over-powered characters, just under or over costed (and the occaisonal broken one where the rules don't do what they're supposed to) ones. A captain with a relic blade (better than Sicarius' sword for reliability) and artificer armour (just as good as Sicarius mantle unless sicarius is on his own and suffers 36 wounding ap3 or worse hits) is 3/4 of the cost of Sicarius. Sicarius also has a plasma pistol, but who cares.

So its a case of "do you want to spend 55 points for +1 attack (which you might not use if you want to kill an enemy character), a worse sword, a plasma pistol that you'll maybe fire twice, a reroll, +1 leadership for your whole army in certain circumstances and the equivilant of a 30 point upgrade for one squad (going by old codexes like Black Templars that charge 3 points per model for veteran skills).

I'd say that Sicarius is good but too many points to be a must have.

Let me point of that Black Templars and Space Wolves, two most loyal Imperial Chapters, are under useless, constant scrutiny, their geneseed is burned instead of used for new foundings, Inquisition wages constant, petty wars against them that sometimes erupt into big battles, etc. This is also true for Blood Angels and Raven Guard - constant scrutiny, suspicions, rare foundings.

There's nothing that says the Black Templars aren't used for new foundings, just that as a successor chapter, they're successor chapters are all counted as being successors to their founding legion even if the geneseed came from them. The Black Templars are known for having especially pure geneseed, even though it has the same flaws as the Imperial Fists (who have plenty of successor chapters after the second founding).

Black Templars also like the Inquisition, especially the order hereticus (who are just as insane as them) and the malleus (who command the only form of psykers they can trust). The Inquisition only distrusts them because they don't know how many of them they are because the Inquisition is unable to keep track of them all, which actually means they aren't under constant scrutiny.

Blood Angels also have tons of successor chapters.

Really, its just that the ultramarines have the most successor chapters because their chapter suffered the least casualties in the heresy so they had more marines to split up.

[Trixie]

Nahh, i remember it being AP 1, so it had to be a multi.

All three Melta variants are S8 AP1.

You misunderstand me, he only sometimes use a stormraven (when he isnt playing BA).

How he can play Stormraven when he is not playing BA? They're the only ones who can take it. Unless you're talking about Caestus.

HQ: Karn, the Betrayer

Chaos Lords of Khorne/Slaanesh are sadly better and don't kill their own units.

How many points is that list, anyway? Rest is spoilered.

Spoiler

Show

Elite:
6x Terminator
Champion
1x Chain Fist
1x Reaper Autocannon
5x Combi-melta

Eh. What is this unit supposed to do? Be anti-tank or anti-infantry? It tries to be both, but for the points, you could have 2 4x Terminator units, one anti-tank, other anti-infantry. Champions are not that good.

Other shwag I may have forgotten.

This is the biggest problem with your list - that 'other shwag' might be pretty expensive and/or not that optimal. I have a feeling you could buy extra unit if you cut on this.

Warp time for the champion/leader.

I'd take that AP3 power. TS are bad in melee.

Rhino with a combi melta+extra armor.

Better just plain Rhino.

It seems you're trying to inflate your list with things you don't have to purchase with $. In this case, better take extra HQ, it will pay off better than all the odds and ends. Maybe Slaanesh Lord of Chaos and Fabius Bile (two HQs who kill everyone they wound), while your Thousand Sons will be (counts as) simply Chaos Marines with the Mark of Tzeenth, and your Berserkers Chaos Marines with Mark of Khorne? They're WYSIWYG. Then, both would apply for Bile's 'enhanced marines' and might be better off than 'pure' TS and Berserkers. If you hit 'Created a Monster' they will tear everything apart ;P

10x Chaos Space Marines
Champion with power fist.
2x Melta

Another Squad for Bile :)

Land Raider
Demonic posession

Needs moar Vindicators.

I'd say that Sicarius is good but too many points to be a must have.

Yup.

There's nothing that says the Black Templars aren't used for new foundings, just that as a successor chapter, they're successor chapters are all counted as being successors to their founding legion even if the geneseed came from them.

Well, the fact they don't have that much extra equipment that can give to new Chapter due to the lack of production facilities, or that the Chapter is never fully assembled so it can be properly split, says otherwise.

I think they're even a virtual black hole for supplies, given how much they use and how hard keeping what they have must be for them. There are other, more reliable Chapters (IF, for one) that can be easily divided.

Black Templars also like the Inquisition, especially the order hereticus (who are just as insane as them)

Aren't they one step from being declared heretics themselves? For a few dozen reasons?

The Inquisition only distrusts them because they don't know how many of them they are because the Inquisition is unable to keep track of them all, which actually means they aren't under constant scrutiny.

But they feel something is amiss. Once someone learns they're a Marine Legion in all but name, red warning sirens are going to sound from Ultramar to Terra.

Really with that 'donate 5% of the Seed as tithe' rule, either they hide it, or do something else to hide the fact that they should be sending 20x the amount of other Chapters, which, of course, in Inquisition's eyes is already a treason.

Blood Angels also have tons of successor chapters.

Eh, in Codex: BA they call all their descendants to defend Ball from Waaagh! and demonic attack at the same time, just before the end of the 41st Millennium, and only a handful of Chapters arrives. Smurfs had more than that in the second founding alone.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well, the fact they don't have that much extra equipment that can give to new Chapter due to the lack of production facilities, or that the Chapter is never fully assembled so it can be properly split, says otherwise.

I think they're even a virtual black hole for supplies, given how much they use and how hard keeping what they have must be for them. There are other, more reliable Chapters (IF, for one) that can be easily divided.

The adeptus mechanicus creates chapters from scratch using tithed geneseed. The black templars resources or choices are pretty much irrelevant. As long as they send the geneseed and its pure, the adeptus mechanicus will use it and since no chapter admits to being founded from anything but a first founding chapter it doesn't matter.

No chapter has its own manufacturing facilities unless they're hiding them from the adeptus mechanicus and the black templars have the same relationship with the adeptus mechanicus as every other chapter, so they have no equipment supply problems at all.

The only space marines that make stuff are (adeptus mechanicus trained) artificers that make them by hand in tiny quantities.

Aren't they one step from being declared heretics themselves? For a few dozen reasons?

Nope. In fact, very few space marine chapters are one step from being declared heretics. It's pretty much only ones that show obvious signs of mutation (eg cursed founding).

The inquisition is a bunch of paranoid over-powered zealots, "one step from being declared heretics" is the normal state for everyone in the imperium. You have to be half a step before it means anything.

Really with that 'donate 5% of the Seed as tithe' rule, either they hide it, or do something else to hide the fact that they should be sending 20x the amount of other Chapters, which, of course, in Inquisition's eyes is already a treason.

The codex astartes is purely an agreement between the space marine chapters. Whether or not its followed is nothing to do with treason and its none of the inquisitions business. The inqusition only cares about the influence of chaos (apart from the xenos that is).

The inquisition itself operates and condones a 3000 strong chapter. The index astartes is a joke to the inquisition.

The inquisition only dislikes the fact that the Black Templars are hiding stuff from them and hard to track.

Seeing how pretty much the only thing the inquisition can do to a space marines chapter (apart from ordering another chapter to wipe them out, which risks a second Badab war) is "sentence them with a penance crusade" the black templars can pretty much laugh at the inquisition.

But they feel something is amiss. Once someone learns they're a Marine Legion in all but name, red warning sirens are going to sound from Ultramar to Terra.

The ban against legions is purely Guilliman and his cronies' complaint. The inqusition doesn't care as long as nobody is secretly worshiping chaos or corrupted by aliens.

Policing space marines isn't really the inquisitions job. They just do it anyway because they're paid to be paranoid.

[Winterwind]

Would a following Chaos Space Marine army be any good for 40k? It isn't exactly optimized, I'm just wondering if it'll even have a chance.

It... should, probably, but there are some very weird oddities in it.

Firstly, what is "Glory of Chaos" supposed to be? The only thing in the codex that sounds even remotely similar is the Icon of Chaos Glory, which cannot be put on Berserkers or Thousand Sons.

Secondly, you're putting Extra Armour and Demonic Possession on your Land Raider, which is absolutely pointless, because Demonic Possession already does everything that Extra Armour could possibly do.

So, those would be a fair amount of points freed up right there. Enough for another Rhino, most likely.

Chaos Lords of Khorne/Slaanesh are sadly better and don't kill their own units.

Lords of Khorne kill themselves instead, and very effectively so. Even without that, they aren't necessarily better against many targets.
As for Lords of Slaanesh, they are specialized character hunters. Used in any other role, Khârn should outperform them.

[Penguinizer]

That is a quirk of me having calculated it several days ago after forgetting, then trying to remember. Ignore it I suppose. Also, the reason for the Thousand Sons is because it's a shared army with my friend, who happens to have some. Same with the termies and normal CSM.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Eh, in Codex: BA they call all their descendants to defend Ball from Waaagh! and demonic attack at the same time, just before the end of the 41st Millennium, and only a handful of Chapters arrives. Smurfs had more than that in the second founding alone.

...

This is a joke, right?

Ultramarines formed 23 chapters for second founding, because they had the numbers for it. Because they don't draw from a single world, they draw from an entire system of badass mofos.

23 chapters is a LOT. That's ~23,000 Marines or so. 23,000 Marines are HARD to make.

The very same Legion that waited practically to the end of HH for any fighting, whose Primarch diluted Imperium's strength to very low levels threatening to unleash a second civil war if the rest won't listen to him? The one, that, until Tyranids arrived, sat on their asses on the Eastern Fringe doing virtually nothing? Not even clearing Maelstorm from pirates?

The same legion who Chaos feared enough to call away from Terra before they unleashed their treachery, who were locked in battle when the Heresy STARTED? With heretics?

Yeah, they waited forever.

The Legion credited with holding the Imperium together post-heresy? The one who fought more battles and saved more planets?

Yeah, they do nothing.

You sir, are rather silly

Maybe they're not traitors, but as far as spiritual liegelity is concerned, they shouldn't be at the top.

You mean a Chapter who never lose Marines to Chaos or disobey orders? The Chapter who always pay their dues? The Chapter which fights above all else for Truth, Justice and the American Imperium Way?

Yeah. Filthy traitors.