Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Shas aia Toriia]

The Legion credited with holding the Imperium together post-heresy? The one who fought more battles and saved more planets?

Actually, that was BECAUSE they had the most marines. If all the chapters were equal strength again, I doubt Guilliman would have had as much sway as when his Legion was about as strong as everybody else's combined.

[Trixie]

Lords of Khorne kill themselves instead, and very effectively so. Even without that, they aren't necessarily better against many targets.

Which is sort of the point - if even they were a better value than Kharn... :P

Ond, my one time I used one playing Chaos army belonging to shop, he rolled 15 and 12 attacks consecutively, killing both units of orks he was fighting. I liked him, if that was my model I'd give him a name :P

As for Lords of Slaanesh, they are specialized character hunters. Used in any other role, Khârn should outperform them.

Eh, I don't know. IC with very high I that IDs everything he touches is better than 'mere' character hunter, I don't see what Kharn has enabling him to be better. SLoC can't kill, what, one or two units in game? Give him Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta, and he will be able to kill everything, including targets Kharn will never be able to defeat. And, he will be still cheaper.

That is a quirk of me having calculated it several days ago after forgetting, then trying to remember. Ignore it I suppose. Also, the reason for the Thousand Sons is because it's a shared army with my friend, who happens to have some. Same with the termies and normal CSM.

So what? You don't have to use them as Thousand Sons. They can be used as CSM with Mark of Tzeenth and Champion with Power Weapon. Or, he can be singled out as Sorcerer HQ. The fact the units are supposed to be something doesn't mean you can't use them as something else, as long as they have right equipment. Use your imagination

If you want to pad your list, the way I proposed would be better than taking all this extra stuff ;P

23 chapters is a LOT. That's ~23,000 Marines or so. 23,000 Marines are HARD to make.

Compared to Ultramarines 400-550+ Chapters, yup, it's a mere handful

I don't want to lie, so I'd have to check that B&C thread again, but other Chapters were pegged at 100-150+ successors, also far more than BA.

The same legion who Chaos feared enough to call away from Terra before they unleashed their treachery, who were locked in battle when the Heresy STARTED? With heretics?

They feared them so much that they were able to lock them away with some second-grade units? That does not compute :P

The Legion credited with holding the Imperium together post-heresy? The one who fought more battles and saved more planets?

More battles than other Legions, because thanks to all that waiting they had more men. If you compare them to 8 other Legions as a whole, their achievements will cease to be so impressive, as they were but a fraction of total effort. Holding by themselves? I don't think so.

You sir, are rather silly

I see you cut the part where their Chapter Master might be Chaos worshiper in secret the entire time

You mean a Chapter who never lose Marines to Chaos or disobey orders?

What? They're Grey Knights now!?

[Issabella]

Apparently surrounding a DE web portal is not entirly successful as jet bikes, jump pack, and skimmer troops can skill skip over the surrounding troops according to the FAQ

Spoiler

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A. If the Dark Eldar player holds any units in
reserve, he must specify if they are going to enter
the game through a webway portal or follow the
normal reserve rules. If Dark Eldar units that are
using the portal have not arrived yet and all
models carrying a portal are destroyed before
deploying it, these units count as destroyed.
When the Webway portal is in position, it acts as a
gate through which your ‘special’ reserves can
enter the table. These models move onto the
table from the portal marker, measuring from its
edge as they would if they entered the table
normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in
proximity apply, notably that you cannot come
within 1” of an enemy model except during an
assault. This means that, if enemy models
surround the portal, then models cannot use it to
enter the table, except for skimmers, jump packs,
jetbikes and other models that can move over
other models. Units may not partially enter play
using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend
the portal until you have used it and not simply
abandon it in the middle of the enemy.

Guess my goal to equip almost all my squads with raiders still works.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Compared to Ultramarines 400-550+ Chapters, yup, it's a mere handful

I don't want to lie, so I'd have to check that B&C thread again, but other Chapters were pegged at 100-150+ successors, also far more than BA.

That'd be a pretty strange estimate. Although I already completely failed this point, but then again I guess people just don't love the Blood Angels

They feared them so much that they were able to lock them away with some second-grade units? That does not compute :P

Since when was the Word Bearers legion second-grade units? Seems a bit harsh, really ...

More battles than other Legions, because thanks to all that waiting they had more men. If you compare them to 8 other Legions as a whole, their achievements will cease to be so impressive, as they were but a fraction of total effort. Holding by themselves? I don't think so.

What is this great period of waiting you keep referring to? I get that the internet doesn't like Ultramarines, but they've been fluffed as in constant battle throughout the heresy. That is their fluff. It's what happened, to them.

I see you cut the part where their Chapter Master might be Chaos worshiper in secret the entire time

That's because I don't deal in the whispered speculation of heretics.

What? They're Grey Knights now!?

Yes, because the only difference between a Marine and a Grey Knight is loyalty. Truly.

[Dark Faun]

Wouldn't this discussion fit better in the fluff thread?

On topic, I like assault squads with flamethrowers.

[MountainKing]

Wouldn't this discussion fit better in the fluff thread?

On topic, I like assault squads with flamethrowers.

That it would.

I'm rather partial to Sisters Repentia squads myself (post-leader chick sacrifice, always with Priest).

[Dark Faun]

I like the concept of Honour Guards with Relic Blades. Imperial Greatswords... IN SPACE.

It'd be nice if they could get jump packs, but only Blood Angels are allowed to have them. You're Raven Guard? Tough luck, loser.

[Trixie]

Wouldn't this discussion fit better in the fluff thread?

He is dead, Jim.

[Cheesegear]

Which is still better than 1.333, especially when that 1.333 turns out to be 0.222 when enemy has 2+ save :P

What happens when your enemy has a cover save? Making AP2 Bolters on par with regular Bolters? Oh, wait, Sternguard get S4, AP5 ignore cover ammo. All Guardsmen and Nids are dead.

Against Calgar, you get a cover save. I much prefer Lysander's re-rolls to Hit.
Oh, a Wraithlord or C'Tan you say? Yep. Sternguard will deal with them too. Lysander gives lots of hits. Or, really, anything T6+, and there are quite a few of those around.

Second, and what I have mentioned before, Calgar's main ability doesn't work if he's dead or 'not on the table'. Two of Lysander's abilities remain even if he dies, or 'isn't on the table'.

Last, Calgar costs as much as a Land Raider. I'd probably prefer a Land Raider. Or a whole 'nother squad or two for 250-265 points.

Lysander costs 200. This is reasonable. In just about any points limit. And, I have mentioned about a dozen times, that, yeah, he does cost the same as Hammernators. That's why if you want Hammernators, you don't take Lysander.

For Combat-Potential, you don't need Calgar. Other things can do roughly the same job. Such as any regular group of Terminators, for less.

His God of War ability is nice. But you don't really need it. It's not that great. Because you've already got Combat Tactics anyway. Because God of War really isn't that good. All you really want to have is the ability to fail, or run away whenever you want.

'Fearless' is nice, I guess. But it's not really needed if you've got Combat Tactics at mostly Ld9 anyway.

So...God of War is not worth 50 points if you already have Combat Tactics. Stubborn is not the same as God of War. But, Lysander gives different bonuses on top of Stubborn, which Calgar does not give.

You already sunk points for melta, why not use them? That will prevent the casualties from taking points that did nothing from your list.

In case your enemy has cover saves. Hellfire rounds wound on 2+ anyway and have more shots.

Really, if there are no targets for meltas, something very weird is going on.

Infantry Guard. Tyranids. Cover Saves. Bad Scatters on your Drop Pod rolls taking Meltas out of range, etc.

Learn to use your Sternguard properly. They have different ammo types for a reason.

Fluff in the Tactics Thread

Spoiler

Show

The fragment I cited is from the third.

So it is. However, even in that fragment, the entire thing is predicated on the fact that it's all rumours. And that, as pointed out by Zorg, the Crimson Fists have always been responsible, since RT. 3rd Ed. Assassins made up a 'rumour'.

IA then went ahead and said Crimson Fists again. Rynn's World, the novel went ahead and said it too.

One sentence in an outdated Codex. vs. Index Astartes, which is generally accepted as 100% truth - wheras all other 3rd Ed Codecies get thrown in the bin (such as your source). And then there's a 5th Ed. novel that 'sort of' explains it. And none of that has anything to do with Assassins.

Everyone wins, right? :P

No. Because none of it is fact.

Let me point of that Black Templars and Space Wolves, two most loyal Imperial Chapters, are under useless, constant scrutiny

So? What does that have to do with anything.

Compare that to outright traitors, like Dark Angels or Ultramarines, who seem to be used for every founding, and you'll see PR matters more than anything.

{Scrubbed}

Eh, if the rest of the world understands the word differently, maybe you wasn't ;P

{Scrubbed}

[crazedloon]

Guess my goal to equip almost all my squads with raiders still works.

my advise as a fellow DE player is that this not just going to work it is a must. Even with a webway portal.

The only footsloggers in the entire army are 10 man warrior units with 2 dark lances, and these guys should only be used in a non-wych cult army. They are nice objective squatters with some of the best weapons in the game at BS4. In wych cult they are dumb becuase they can no longer squat on an objective so don't take them. Everything else needs to be in a raider. Also ignore you fast attack slots they are horrible

[Winterwind]

Which is sort of the point - if even they were a better value than Kharn... :P

Ond, my one time I used one playing Chaos army belonging to shop, he rolled 15 and 12 attacks consecutively, killing both units of orks he was fighting. I liked him, if that was my model I'd give him a name :P

A model that fails to fight in almost one out of three combat rounds (11/36, to be precise) is way too risky for me. And when one considers that less of these attacks hit and wound, I really don't think you will end up anywhere near as well off as Khârn.

Eh, I don't know. IC with very high I that IDs everything he touches is better than 'mere' character hunter, I don't see what Kharn has enabling him to be better. SLoC can't kill, what, one or two units in game? Give him Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta, and he will be able to kill everything, including targets Kharn will never be able to defeat. And, he will be still cheaper.

What Khârn has that enables him to be better? How about missing with less attacks (always hits on 2+) and wounding with more attacks (S5 all the time, S6 when charging)? And mind, Khârn has almost as many attacks as the Slaanesh Lord on average (7 vs. 7.5 when charging) - more, if you factor in that in one in six rounds the Slaanesh Lord doesn't fight at all. That makes him better against pretty much everything that does not have multiple wounds (i.e., most things), and sometimes even better against things that do (because while the Slaanesh Lord has to wound only once, he has to wound, which he very well may fail to do if the target has T6 or more).

And, what exactly would be a target that a Slaanesh Lord, however equipped, can kill that Khârn cannot? The only thing I can think of would be Monoliths, if one goes by the interpretation that melta bombs still roll 2d6 against them, because the second die is no bonus die. But since I don't think anybody around here would accept that argument, that's out, too.

[lord_khaine]

Quote:
Nahh, i remember it being AP 1, so it had to be a multi.
All three Melta variants are S8 AP1.

Quote:
You misunderstand me, he only sometimes use a stormraven (when he isnt playing BA).
How he can play Stormraven when he is not playing BA? They're the only ones who can take it. Unless you're talking about Caestus.

Ahh, guess i must have mixed some weapons up, this certanly explains why everyone else running around with multi-melta's....

As for the stormraven thing, sometimes he play BT, sometimes he play BA.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Curse you marine variants for being so easy to mix up!

[Trixie]

I really don't think you will end up anywhere near as well off as Khârn.

Kharn would have been good if he could hide in unit so that he isn't killed by shooty units. However, if you do hide him in unit, you have to accept he will kill 1-3 of your guys in each player's turn greatly helping the enemy to activate a sweeping advance/fearless wounds. Thus, negating the point of having him. If you don't hide him in unit, every Spees Mahreen and their Grandpa will ventilate him with rapid fire in one turn.

Kharn is a bit too unwieldy and random for my tastes.

That makes him better against pretty much everything that does not have multiple wounds (i.e., most things)

Read: most dangerous things. Between others, Tyranids, Thunderwolves, Ork Bikers, ICs, that is, the things you want dead ASAP and the ones most likely to engage your ICs in battle. SLoC will make paste from them with his I6, Kharn will be stomped.

Everyone can kill Tactical Marines and Scouts, being better at killing them isn't that big achievement or advantage.

Look at it from this position: SLoC charges Kharn, one dead Kharn, one untouched SLoC. Kharn charges SLoC, one dead Kharn and SLoC that has 50% of being dead and 50% of having one or more wounds. And this for a price on an entire Chaos Terminator less.

But since I don't think anybody around here would accept that argument, that's out, too.

No one? Just a week ago someone here said Melta Torpedoes aren't Melta weapons and do penetrate Monoliths. I don't remember protests :P

[Dark Faun]

No one? Just a week ago someone here said Melta Torpedoes aren't Melta weapons and do penetrate Monoliths. I don't remember protests :P

Yikes.

I got a game a long time ago, once again with the manager's Tyrannid army (I'll have a big enough army one day, I swear) and I found myself against Space Marines; Ultramarines from the AoBR box and some other stuff.

No, it wasn't the same player as the last time.

After a discussion on whether assault squads could run about with bolters instead of bolt pistols and close combat weapons, I've come to ask myself: would such a unit be useful?

[Trixie]

After a discussion on whether assault squads could run about with bolters instead of bolt pistols and close combat weapons, I've come to ask myself: would such a unit be useful?

Why not? Greater mobility means easier rapid-fire. Assault marines have what, 1 pistol shot and 3 melee attacks per charge? That could be worse than having 2 bolter shots and then having 2 attacks vs counter-charge of weakened enemy.

The only danger I see is jumping too far after using combat tactics and ending up in bad spot.

And indeed, there are such units: they come in good version, called Chaos Space Marines, and a better one, called Grey Hunters :P

[Dark Faun]

Those don't have jump packs.

I've had an inkling they'd be useful but I wanted confirmation. I love the concept personally.

Sure, they got killed by three Raveners in one round. But even with their standard equipment they wouldn't have lasted long.

They incidentally were the only casualties I managed to inflict before being tabled.

[Arcanoi]

Kharn would have been good if he could hide in unit so that he isn't killed by shooty units. However, if you do hide him in unit, you have to accept he will kill 1-3 of your guys in each player's turn greatly helping the enemy to activate a sweeping advance/fearless wounds. Thus, negating the point of having him. If you don't hide him in unit, every Spees Mahreen and their Grandpa will ventilate him with rapid fire in one turn.

Kharn is a bit too unwieldy and random for my tastes.

Kharn's The Betrayer rule is better than the drawback on a Daemon Weapon. He still makes attacks if he rolls a 1.

Look at it from this position: SLoC charges Kharn, one dead Kharn, one untouched SLoC. Kharn charges SLoC, one dead Kharn and SLoC that has 50% of being dead and 50% of having one or more wounds. And this for a price on an entire Chaos Terminator less.

SLoC charges Kharn, and we presume he doesn't roll a 1. 8.33 attacks --> 4.16 hit --> 2.08 wound --> 1.38 are not saved. Kharn dies.

Kharn charges SLoC, and we presume once again that the SloC doesn't roll a 1. 7 attacks --> 5.83 hit --> 4.86 wound --> 3.24 are not saved. SLoC strikes back. 7.33 attacks --> 3.66 hit --> 1.83 wound --> 1.22 are not saved. Both die.

So yes, a dedicated character hunter can beat a character. Several questions remain, however. Why isn't Kharn in a Rhino to protect him from such a thing? Elsewise, why are you throwing your IC against an I6 model whose attacks inflict Instant Death? Should we always use Clash of Heroes to determine a hero's usefulness?

No one? Just a week ago someone here said Melta Torpedoes aren't Melta weapons and do penetrate Monoliths. I don't remember protests :P

Actually, I only said they aren't Melta Weapons. Because they aren't. They are Ordnance Weapons with 2d6 penetration. They have the same conflict with Monoliths that Melta Bombs and Eldritch Storm do.

[ShadowFighter15]

That...Unsettles me. That you bought Terminators to be used in conjunction with another model that
a) You don't have. And is also one of the single-most expensive things in the hobby outside of Forgeworld, and so you're unlikely to get it for quite some time anyway, and
b) You can't work the Land Raider into a list anyway.

...It's a common mistake. GW Staff convince people to buy models that they can't and/or don't know how to use all the time. However, I kind of get the feeling that this was a concious descision on your part to do what you've done - which kind of makes it worse.

Yeah, I'm not all that good with forward planning. Incidentally; the store that sells GW stuff here in Toowoomba isn't run by GW, it's an independent place. The guys running it aren't too pushy about what to buy or not. I have been down to a couple of GW stores in Brisbane last week and I do see what you mean about GW staff convincing people to buy stuff. Had a guy at the Mount Gravatt store suggest I get some Vanguard Veterans (which I just see as over-priced Assault Marines, though if I ever got them I'd represent them with a bit of kit-bashing between normal Assault Marines and Sanguinary Guard - say what you will about the Sanguinary Guard in gameplay, but those are some kick-ass models).

Maybe. You should have ten Terminator Bodies from two boxes. If you have Hammers and Shield to spare, I'd put those on your Terminators first. Then, I'd make four LC Terminators, just so you can make that magic 4:1 ratio of LC/THs.

You should have 4 Lightning Claws, 5 Thunder Hammers. And a tenth body to spare.

Then use that 10th 'spare' Terminator, give him all the 'Sergeant' upgrades from the regular Terminator box (that you don't get in the Assault Terminator box), and make him a Chapter Master. I wouldn't make him a Captain, because Captains are much better on Bikes or Jump Packs, IMO.

Or use a unique Captain.

The other thing you can do with your last Terminator, is make a Chapter-Appropriate Marneus Calgar (Chapter Master, told you). Everyone needs one. I still haven't made my Vladamir Pugh. Which kind of disappoints me. And I don't really know how to make a Hawk Lords' (Raven Guard) Calgar.

Might make him a Chapter Master, see what happens.

Venerable Dreadnoughts are good for that, as they have extra BS, and can force your opponent to re-roll those Crew Stunned/Shaken rolls to Weapon Destroyeds or Immobiliseds.

*reads over the codex again* I think the way you worded that is a little confusing; the venerable ability only lets you re-roll for hits that the venerable suffers. The way you worded it in the quote above makes it sound like either re-rolling the damage you inflict with the venerable, or that it's good to re-roll a Stunned/Shaken result on a venerable and get a Weapon Destroyed.

It really depends on what's in them. And where they land.

Well for future reference, the term "Pod-clad" will refer to a melee-oriented Ironclad Dreadnought in a Drop Pod.

...So...I managed to pull ~190 points out of your list that you 'wasted'. And you're telling me that you still had another 30 points to go...And you couldn't work in Terminators?
Twin Dakka-Preds? Autolas Preds?

230 Points is also twin Vindicators. Just saying.

I think part of my problem was trying to use as many of the models I've built so far as I could, hence the three elite choices in my initial list.

[Trixie]

Those don't have jump packs.

Assault marines in 2 out of 3 most popular configurations don't either.

Kharn's The Betrayer rule is better than the drawback on a Daemon Weapon. He still makes attacks if he rolls a 1.

Nominally, yes, but as I said, all the extra handling of Kharn might not be worth it, IMVHO.

Kharn charges SLoC, and we presume once again that the SloC doesn't roll a 1. 7 attacks --> 5.83 hit --> 4.86 wound --> 3.24 are not saved. SLoC strikes back. 7.33 attacks --> 3.66 hit --> 1.83 wound --> 1.22 are not saved. Both die.

I did a curve distribution. One lucky roll more and SLoC stays on table. Which is much more likely than Kharn being not wounded at all.

But I agree, they might end up both dead on average. In which case, you lost 30 points more with Kharn.

Why isn't Kharn in a Rhino to protect him from such a thing?

Because extra 30 points you paid over SLoC ate points reserved for it?

Elsewise, why are you throwing your IC against an I6 model whose attacks inflict Instant Death?

What else throw, then? Besides, you might not have a choice - if SLoC gets wings, jump pack, or steed, he can charge pretty much anything he wants wherever he wants.

Should we always use Clash of Heroes to determine a hero's usefulness?

It's simple and clean

But we don't have to. Which is why I gave examples of 3 high profile units being premiere IC/assault killers in their Codices that SLoC kills much faster and more efficient than Kharn (who end up dead).

Actually, I only said they aren't Melta Weapons. Because they aren't. They are Ordnance Weapons with 2d6 penetration. They have the same conflict with Monoliths that Melta Bombs and Eldritch Storm do.

Ah, sorry, then. Still, the fact that there's conflict only gives more weight to my rant about quality of FAQs/Erratas :P

[Arcanoi]

Why not?

Would you pay 2pts a model to make your tactical squads jump-infantry, lose the ability to take their horrendously underpriced heavy weapons, pay a premium on their special weapons, and stop being troops? Assault Squads are almost always better as CCW+Pistol than with a bolter, for much the same reason that Storm Scouts are almost always better as CCW+Pistol than as Bolter.

I did a curve distribution. One lucky roll more and SLoC stays on table. Which is much more likely than Kharn being not wounded at all.

What about the one lucky roll that says the SLoC gets any attacks at all?

What else throw, then? Besides, you might not have a choice - if SLoC gets wings, jump pack, or steed, he can charge pretty much anything he wants wherever he wants.

Rapid-Fire him with Thousand Sons, Charge him with a Dreadnought, Tank Shock him with a Rhino, or just engage him with a squad of dandy Plague Marines, which he will kill an average of 1 per round. Hit him with Noise Marines who can negate his Initiative advantage, if they even need to get into CC with him. Berzerkers can do the same.

It's simple and clean

And nearly worthless.

But we don't have to. Which is why I gave examples of 3 high profile units being premiere IC/assault killers in their Codices that SLoC kills much faster and more efficient than Kharn (who end up dead).

Kharn is better against anything T3 or less, almost anything T6 or greater, anything with Eternal Warrior, and anything that is not a W2+ model. The SLoC fills a very narrow niche, while Kharn can kill almost anything.

Ah, sorry, then. Still, the fact that there's conflict only gives more weight to my rant about quality of FAQs/Erratas :P

If GW felt it would make them money, they would do it. A small percentage of their players (People who play Necrons or against them frequently while fielding Melta Bombs, as well as people who gripe about the low quality of GW Errata that they never have occasion to consult ) are all this would effect. It probably gives their errata council a headache too, since half of their target audience would be upset either way.

[Trixie]

Would you pay 2pts a model to make your tactical squads jump-infantry, lose the ability to take their horrendously underpriced heavy weapons, pay a premium on their special weapons, and stop being troops?

Depends on army loadout, but yes, I can imagine I might.

Assault Squads are almost always better as CCW+Pistol than with a bolter, for much the same reason that Storm Scouts are almost always better as CCW+Pistol than as Bolter.

'Almost' always? Again, I'd say it depends on army.

Rapid-Fire him with Thousand Sons

Hawing wings includes maximum denial of LoS.

Charge him with a Dreadnought,

Melta Bombs? ;P

engage him with a squad of dandy Plague Marines, which he will kill an average of 2 per round.

I wanted to correct you, but I see you already did this

And nearly worthless.

Maybe it isn't the best in this case, but when the units have similar tasks it's the best tool.

Kharn is better against almost anything T3 or less

Only if he gets the charge. Which, seeing as how T3 are Eldar, is unlikely, or, in IG's case, pointless, because he will kill a few only to eat ID to his face.

and T6 or greater,

Very rare.

anything with Eternal Warrior

Most of these models have enough W or Invulnerable save good enough to weather attacks. Kharn dies. SLoC might die, might roll enough attacks to turn them into pasta with his I6. Partial chance is better than no chance.

and anything that is not a W2+ model.

Read: very fast, very dangerous units specifically after your HQ. Or after precious units HQ wants to save.

The SLoC fills a very narrow niche, while Kharn can kill almost anything.

'Narrow', as in 'making everything think twice before charging or even entering charge range' vs 'dying after killing a few allied units or not accomplishing anything worthwhile'?

From your description, it seems Kharn is better than SLoC when it somes to killing Tactical Marines, Scouts, small IG squads, etc. Fine. Still, such small time units are engaged by your army. Your HQ and their entourage are for these high profile targets you all but admitted SLoC kills better

I'm not saying Kharn is that bad. I'm saying that there are a few cheaper units in C:CSM that do everything he can do and more. SLoC is one of them.

If GW felt it would make them money, they would do it.

Again, reputation. They're selling luxury product. One of many similar. Pissing on customers might crash their business virtually overnight. Warhammer is no Windows, it's position nowhere near as strong. And even if it was, following example would be wise, as Microsoft is pissing away considerable resources to keep customers happy with upgrades and patches above and beyond the ones they are expected to make.

A small percentage of their players (People who play Necrons or against them frequently while fielding Melta Bombs) are all this would effect, and it probably gives them headaches too, since half of their target audience would be upset either way.

Anyone stupid enough to be upset melta bombs are now melta should be sent to Australia to have their favorite method of correcting rules lawyers tried on him. Repeatedly.

[crazedloon]

Anyone stupid enough to be upset melta bombs are now melta should be sent to Australia to have their favorite method of correcting rules lawyers tried on him. Repeatedly.

where were they made into melta?

[Shas aia Toriia]

What happens in Australia to rules lawyers?

[Arcanoi]

Melta Bombs? ;P

Give him a 1-in-6 or so chance of stopping the thing before it pulps him.

Maybe it isn't the best in this case, but when the units have similar tasks it's the best tool.

Kharn is essentially an awesome version of Arjac Rockfist that takes up an HQ slot. A SLoC is a dedicated character hunter.

Most of these models have enough W or Invulnerable save good enough to weather attacks. Kharn dies. SLoC might die, might roll enough attacks to turn them into pasta with his I6. Partial chance is better than no chance.

If they have a good enough Invul save, the SLoC is even less worthwhile. He can barely get 1 average wound against a T4 Sv5++ model.

'Narrow', as in 'making everything think twice before charging or even entering charge range' vs 'dying after killing a few allied units or not accomplishing anything worthwhile'?

I've played against Kharn. And he is terrifying for a 165pt model.

From your description, it seems Kharn is better than SLoC when it somes to killing Tactical Marines, Scouts, small IG squads, etc. Fine. Still, such small time units are engaged by your army.

Your HQ and their entourage are for high profile targets you all but admitted SLoC kills better

Kharn is better against anything W1. This is at least 70% of the models on any given board. He is better against vehicles, T6+, and Eternal Warriors. These are the toughest models on the board. So this leaves the SLoC being better against Multi-wound, T4-5 models who do not have eternal warrior. That is a narrow niche.

I'm not saying Kharn is that bad. I'm saying that there are a few cheaper units in C:CSM that do everything he can do and more. SLoC is one of them.

Kharn is arguably the best model in the game for killing vehicles. He mows down W1 models like nobody's business. The SLoC cannot do these efficiently.

Again, reputation. They're selling luxury product. One of many similar. Pissing on customers might crash their business virtually overnight. Warhammer is no Windows, it's position nowhere near as strong. And even if it was, following example would be wise, as Microsoft is pissing away considerable resources to keep customers happy with upgrades and patches above and beyond the ones they are expected to make.

You'd be surprised how few people are so vehemently pissed off about the lack of ruling about interactions between Melta Bombs and Monoliths that they'd quit the hobby. Also, Microsoft has a competitor in Mac that many people feel can provide them with all the benefits Microsoft provides. GW has no such competitor.

[Closet_Skeleton]

After a discussion on whether assault squads could run about with bolters instead of bolt pistols and close combat weapons, I've come to ask myself: would such a unit be useful?

If they had jet packs, yes.

You can actually make death company with bolt guns and jump packs. They're rediculously overcosted for the role, but they are relentless.

I actually like bolter death company. They can still shoot 24 at who they want even when rage baited and still have 2 attacks at WS 5, making them better than assault marines. They're almost like -2 strength (-1 on the charge) grey knights. Kind of like shoota boyz but elite rather than horde. Add in a chaplain or lemartes and they can reroll to hit and wound, so they don't need power weapons or bolt pistols except against terminators (which you hopefully have other ways of killing).

[Arcanoi]

If they had jet packs, yes.

You can actually make death company with bolt guns and jump packs. They're rediculously overcosted for the role, but they are relentless.

I was actually looking into this. The only other unit I could find that can take Bolters and Jump-packs is Wolf Guard, who are even more overcosted.

I actually like bolter death company. They can still shoot 24 at who they want even when rage baited and still have 2 attacks at WS 5, making them better than assault marines. They're almost like -2 strength (-1 on the charge) grey knights. Kind of like shoota boyz but elite rather than horde.

Most of this would be true, except for the fact that Bolters are Rapid Fire, and thus suck.

Add in a chaplain or lemartes and they can reroll to hit and wound, so they don't need power weapons or bolt pistols except against terminators (which you hopefully have other ways of killing).

Pay 150pts to reroll the WS5 S4 CCW attacks..? Not worth it.

[Cheesegear]

Most of this would be true, except for the fact that Bolters are Rapid Fire, and thus suck.

Death Company are Relentless. Having them with Bolters is actually pretty cool.

[Winterwind]

Only if he gets the charge. Which, seeing as how T3 are Eldar, is unlikely, or, in IG's case, pointless, because he will kill a few only to eat ID to his face.

I'd go through your arguments point by point, but this part alone reveals to me a pretty fundamental misunderstanding here: You seem to think Khârn has S4 and Furious Charge. He doesn't. He has S5 and Furious Charge. So, he always has more Strength than the Slaanesh Lord; if he charges, a lot more even.

And, Instant Death from Imperial Guard? I wonder how. Imperial Guard powerfists have only S6, so don't instant-kill him, and he's immune against forceweapons.

Very rare.

Tyranids beg to differ. :smallwink

[Meta]

Tigurius 230 points

Land Speeder 90 points
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder 90 points
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Predator 120 points
TL Autocannon and Lascannons

Predator 120 points
TL Autocannon and Lascannons

Devastators 150 points
4 Missile Launchers

Dreadnought 115 points
Assault Cannon

Dreadnought 105 points Multi-Melta

Dreadnought 115 points
Plasma Cannon

Tactical Squad 225 points
Plasma Cannon
Meltagun
Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter

Tactical Squad 215 points
Missile Launcher
Meltagun
Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter

Tactical Squad 215 points
Missile Launcher
Meltagun
Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter

Tactical Squad 205 points
Missile Launcher
Flamer
Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter

A rather shooty list I've been tinkering with. Which would probably be better if it was SW (darn cheaper long fang squads!)

I've considered going with the pure shooty dreads (ML LC and TL ACs) but would rather have a more effective counter assault. Tigurius is there for just a bunch of versatility. Tactics like GoI to a late objective, null zoning a squad of SS termies before i lay into it with the firepower, etc.

I don't think it's a very 'cheesy' list:
1 HQ
3 Elites
4 Troops
2 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support

What do ya think?

EDIT: I'd like to see an effective sternguard drop work on this list.
We could always take it to Vassal.