Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[crazedloon]

*snip*

Though it is valid to say a good list is easier to play than a poor list. Overpowered choices can make a bad player a mediocre one. I think its a fine line and only a great general will make any list (good or bad) perform to its best or better degree. Sure there is luck involved but there is the same luck that things go your way as things go against you so that has little to do with it.

I think the comp score is ridiculous because there is no hard fast rule about what list gets what comp score. It is arbitrary and based on the TOs opinion which may be wildly wrong about certain aspects of the game. Or ,even worse, the TO will favor certain players or lists because he/she prefers those player or lists.

As for the idea of net listing I think you are overrating the effectiveness of such a plot. The 6 of 8 torny you are referring to (at least I assume you are refering to the one I mentioned) actually had quite a few big names from all over the country, as it was one of the last GT qualifiers, including some "big internet celebs." These are the sort of guys who are listened to when people get their net advice, or straight copied for the uncreative. However they were not the guys who won. Indeed the top 2 places were taken by two players from my local store who have little to no internet presence and made their list the good ol fashioned way. I.E. they played with them and fine tuned them. Than they just played them well. These last two things are something you can not get from net listing. Indeed they are the most important part of the game IMHO. That is if you do not know how to use your list you will more than likely loose no matter what sort of cheese you have. If you make bad game decisions no matter what cheese you have you will loose. These two things can not be taken into consideration when you look at a list and award it a comp score.

A comp score is not an entirely bad idea (it has some rather good intentions) but I do not think it is the best way to go about it. Particularly becuase you can apparently win the tourny via wins but loose the whole thing becuase some guy thinks your list is too powerful or underestimated the power of other lists.

[LCP]

Yeah. Sure. But you can't actually use Statistics in the game. At least, you can't do in-depth calculations at the board, whether or not you should Assault if you've got 4 Berzerkers or 5. At the time, there's probably nothing else for the Berzerkers to do anyway, so they may as well Assault.

You can do the complex stuff pre-game. The basic maths is the same, you tend to just be permuting a few parameters: it's not difficult to get an idea for the usual kind of spread, and then just remember that in the context of quick and easy expectation value calculations. Plus, some tests are so ubiquitous (like Ld checks) that a single calculation can set you in good stead for every single subsequent game.

For example, probably the calculation that I did the most over my career as a gamer: 20-strong block of Saurus Warriors vs. a similar block of Dark Elf warriors.

11 attacks hit on 4s: 11/2 hits, round down to 5.
5 hits wound on 3s: 10/3 wounds, round down to three
3 wounds saved on 6s: 1/2 of a save, but I've already been conservative so I discard it. 3 Druchii bite the dust.

I can expect a ~20% spread within one standard deviation, which, rounding up, makes my result variable by 1 either way. So I can expect 2-4 Druchii to die with reasonable confidence; the chances of the result being more extreme in either direction are only ~30%, which means that the chances of the result being worse are only ~15% (maybe a little higher, since the distribution is slightly asymmetric).

That's exactly the mental arithmetic I'd do, written out: it takes about 20 seconds, tops.

Maths hammer is a great way of using theory to prove that you should win. Play the game and I bet that you will still lose.

Really? I'll bet that you'll win harder than you predicted pretty much just as often as you lose. Because that's how stats work. Everything else you said is just the reiteration of the trivial point that you can't expect the expectation value to come up on every single die. No-one's saying that.

[Wraith]

A Grand Master is way better than a Brother-Captain, yes.
Stern however is only 1W and 1A behind the GM, for a non-trivial amount of points.

Grand-Masters also come with a fully-powered Nemesis Force Weapon, whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie That's a 40pt piece of wargear compared to everyone else' 30pt Relic Blade, for free.
Grand Masters are also allowed to take Icon of the Just (an Iron Halo, by any other name, and therefore awesome) and Psy-bolts, as well as pick and choose his own Psychic Powers.

More importantly - and I have only just noticed this myself - but Grey Knight Grand Masters are Grey Knights, whereas Brother-Captain Stern is not.

Seriously, go look for yourself: He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW.

But he's 4pts cheaper, so that's alright.

Who are you talking about here?

Autarchs and Farseers, who can be tooled up to do the exact same task as either Special Character (albeit much more economically).

Admittedly in this case the Phoenix Lords are BETTER than a dedicated Autarch in terms of stats and (some of) their rules, but for what you're paying and what you're getting the Autarch is still really good.
I'd much rather take a "Striking Scorpion Autarch" and a couple more actual Scorpions than to just take Karandras after all, and that is saying something impressive when he is one of the better Phoenix Lords already.

[hamishspence]

Grand-Masters also come with a fully-powered Nemesis Force Weapon, whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie That's a 40pt piece of wargear compared to everyone else' 30pt Relic Blade, for free.

Are you sure about that? Last time I read the codex, I seem to recall it saying that he counts as a Grand Master for the purposes of his weapon being a Force weapon.

[Ninja Chocobo]

whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie

Guess again.

Grand Masters are also allowed to take Icon of the Just (an Iron Halo, by any other name, and therefore awesome) and Psy-bolts, as well as pick and choose his own Psychic Powers.

Pretty sure Holocaust and Hammerhand are the two best.

Seriously, go look for yourself: He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW.

He's also in a squad that's got all that.

But he's 4pts cheaper, so that's alright.

Try 44. 34, if you're not taking the Grimoire. Most don't I guess.

Autarchs and Farseers, who can be tooled up to do the exact same task as either Special Character (albeit much more economically).

You will not get a farseer as good as Eldrad for the points. He's pretty ridiculous.

[Cheesegear]

He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW.

I had not picked up on that. Interesting. However, whenever he joins a GK unit, he would gain Fearless, as per the rules. As far as Shooting attacks are concerned, ICs can not be targeted, instead, the unit is. And a GK unit has Shrouding. Last, he's in Terminator Armour, he wouldn't benefit from True Grit even if he did have it.

But, lack of Aegis kind of hurts. There are a few powers in the game that specifically target characters (Zogwort, Mind War*) that he'd have no resistance against.

Still, you shouldn't be taking Brother-Captains in the first place. Look at the Grand Master, just look at him. His ability to be tooled out in any way you want is what sells him. Especially the Icon of the Just. If you don't have Eternal Warrior, your invulnerable had better be amazing. And that's not mentioning the b0rked version of Psychic Hoods that GKs get.

Holocaust is good. Hammerhand not so much. I vastly prefer Word of the Emperor. Stern comes with Grimoire of True Names. You don't really need it. Pass.

For me, it's the statline of the Grand Master. Extra wounds and more attacks, considering you aren't Eternal Warrior, is always a plus. You need to do the maximum amount of damage in the short time that you have.

*Mind War is making a comeback in my area as one of the better Farseer powers, used similarly to Blood Boil (BA). Except that Mind War potentially rapes ICs and MCs in half.

Stern just isn't that good. The ability to give the wargear you actually want, and the statline, is what makes a Grand Master better. Wraith is right that Stern isn't that good. But his reasoning is flawed.

[hamishspence]

Since "Grey Knight Hero" is 0-1, you can't have two ordinary Grand Masters, or a Grand Master and an ordinary GKH.

You can have a Grand Master and a Stern though.

So, maybe, you might take Stern when you want two leader guys both with retinues?

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, is it worth using Kharn in a CSM army? What I had in mind was: Him and berserkers in a land raider. Supported by some plague marines in Rhinos. Maybe a Dread or Defiler.

[Cheesegear]

So, maybe, you might take Stern when you want two leader guys both with retinues?

Pass. GKTs come stock with Brother-Captains, who also aren't bogged down with piles of useless Wargear.

Brother-Captain and two GKTs, 143 points. 3 Wounds, 8 Attacks, 3 Storm Bolters, etc. The same invulnerable save and everything. GKTs come stock as GKs, wheras Stern isn't, etc.

Unless you're using your Elite slots for something better than GKTs (!?), there's really no reason why you would need 2 for HQs.

Grand Master + GKTs, normal GKTs.
If you really need a third, more expensive group of GKTs, then sure, waste your points on Stern.

[Wraith]

Guess again.

Yeah, I realised that as soon as I got up and walked away from the keyboard. Still, if even just for fluff reasons, "Counts As" <<<< "Actually Is"

Pretty sure Holocaust and Hammerhand are the two best.

Truth be told, none of the Daemonhunters' Psychic Powers are very good - even the ones that still have a use and especially compared to Codex: Space Marines. The best of a poor bunch doesn't rank them very highly.
They're both very context-sensitive, Hammerhand in particular. Swapping your Nemesis Force Weapon for a Power Fist-without-the-Power might help crush a vehicle, but a lot of the time you'll get the same result by spamming s6 attacks at one (Land Raiders and Monolith aside, of course). No use against anything with a save of any kind, though.

And Holocaust... I have issues with anything that inflicts s5 hits on my own unit, armour save or otherwise. Why take the risk, when you've already used up your Good Luck on avoiding a Perils of the Warp test?

(Because we all know that's how the dice work, right? They all have a pre-set limit of good and bad rolls, and the more you use up one then the more likely you'll get the other.... )

He's also in a squad that's got all that.

True, but that just means that his Squad is awesome. He, individually, is not as good as an ordinary Grey Knight in the sense that they have all these special rules and he does not.

Remember how people complained about Mephiston, because he was a Blood Angels' character without the Blood Angels' defining traits, like Red Thirst and such? Blood Angels are a great army, marred by their special rules that randomly make them less controllable.
Stern approaches it from the other direction - the special rules he should have are GREAT, but he alone is without them. That makes him a poor special character because he is not powerful enough!

You will not get a farseer as good as Eldrad for the points. He's pretty ridiculous.

No, but if all I want is a Psyker that will target other SC's and models carrying Heavy Weapons or to carry Runes in order to mess up my opponents' Psykers, a couple of ordinary Farseers are more than enough to get the join done at around half the price.

That's the point I'm trying to make - a lot of Special Characters are good, but I don't like to take them because they do too much and I'm paying a lot of points for abilities and equipment that I don't want to use, either because they're inappropriate for the Squad that they're traveling in or because they are not as effective against my opponents' army.

I realise that a lot of this is only my opinion and in reality I may well be better off taking a character that can do other things should my grand master plan fall apart.
But to me, characters and units are all tools that are there to perform their specific task and sending them at something else is reckless and inefficient - blame that on playing Eldar for 10 years, I guess

[Winterwind]

If you're going that heavy on the armour, you might want to try adding Spirit Stones. Generally you won't want to reroll a 'stunned' result on the damage table with the holo-fields, but if your tanks are hit and unable to fire, you really, really want them to be able to move out of sight and not get hit again. Against many opponents, you're going to stand or fall by those fire prisms.

Holo-fields do not allow to re-roll anyway - they force you to roll twice and you have to pick the lower result.

I figured that if something got close enough to my Fire Prisms to stun them, I'd be able to just slaughter it with the rest of my army before it got a second shot. But you're probably right; I'll try to get these Spirit Stones.

Winterwind: I'm not sure about the 2x10 Pathfinders. I'd probably drop them down to 2x5 and take some more psykery. Especially Fortune.

I just realized I got Spirit Stones on the Farseer, but didn't buy him a second power.
I have to admit, I kinda underestimated how many actually quite decent saves I do have in that army (and thus the value of Fortune). I'll make sure to get it.

Though I'd really rather keep the Pathfinders. I really like them conceptually...

I'd also drop Tank Hunters from the Fire Dragons. You have nine Meltaguns, after all.

Well, it's not that expensive, and it would help against bad luck.
Also, against Monoliths and heavy targets if I'm forced to shoot from a bigger distance for whatever reason (like, say, the Serpent being shot down or something like that).

I'm not sure where the Farseer is meant to go.

I figured either the Rangers or the Fire Dragons. Though Wraith is absolutely right, putting him on a bike is infinitely superior, and I'm ashamed I didn't think of that (I kinda forgot that putting a Farseer on a bike does not immediately mean one has to build a Seer Council, which might be nice, but absolutely doesn't fit into the army points-wise).

Also, your list seems kinda...small. Especially for 2k.

I'm... not really sure how I can help that. I'm reasonably sure I didn't screw up my math...

Sorry WW, I was digesting your list as I typed my previous post,but then forgot to respond proper as I was busy adding links to the OP. But since that other helpful Eldar Player won't step up, I suppose I could offer my thoughts....

You know damn well I meant you! ;)

In short, it looks good as a fairly balanced list that tries to fight all-comers, while preferring to do it with more Skimmers than not. You've made the right choice my Infiltrating the Scorpions instead of giving them a transport, despite it upsetting your overall theme, and although the two units of Pathfinders would be just fine as Rangers, I think I understand why you have gone all-out and upgraded them. Perhaps consider taking one Squad of Pathfinders and one of Rangers, which should give you enough points back to invest in more Jetbikes?

To explain some of my reasoning here - as I said before, I always wanted to start an Eldar army some time, and my initial plan was to go for something Alaitoc-esque - I always liked Pathfinders from the first moment I read the codex (also, I'll freely admit, Cheesegear's love for sniper-scouts further encouraged me to try some snipers myself ).

On the other hand, I also always liked the looks of the Eldar vehicles. And since my CSM army is very infantry-focused, with few vehicles, I figured, why not do something different this time? Hence, Mech-list.

And finally I decided, hey, perhaps that's not incompatible. Hence, the above sniper+skimmer-list.

My next thought was, hey, if I already have infiltrating troops, why not make that another theme of the army and have even more infiltrating stuff, to further mess up the opponent's plans. Hence, Scorpions (rather than Banshees in a Serpent, as I had originally intended).

As for the Pathfinders being Pathfinders, rather than Rangers - I kinda think 5 points per model is a bargain, considering how much they gain. AP1 for one third, rather than one sixth of their shots, and 4+ cover turning into 2+ cover? I may be wrong, but getting four Pathfinders for the price of five Rangers seems totally worth it to me.

I'm wondering now if it wouldn't be best to somehow free up another 24 points and split the Pathfinders into three squads of 7 models each. Would allow better mission objective coverage, more flexibility, and lastly, more chances to pin targets...

I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)
I agree that it's a shame you ran out of room for another Vyper, as I would really like to run some myself, but in a coin-toss between that and a Night Spinner I think we'd argue a lot and neither would be a particularly better choice than the other so you're not doing anything wrong there.

Alrighty.

About the Vypers - are Scatter Lasers the right choice on them, or would that army likely benefit more from some other weapon?

The only outright criticism that I would offer is that your Farseer looks lost on his own like that.
I'm assuming that he'd join one of the Pathfinder units and spam Doom all game, but you might also consider putting him on a Jetbike with a Singing Spear and running him with one of the Squads.
He can still Doom anything that needs it, but you'll also have a useful anti-tank unit should the need arise (and it very well might, since your only dedicated alternatives are the Fire Prisms, which aren't very efficient and yet are extremely big, attractive targets).

You are absolutely right. That's infinitely better.

Only, why a Singing Spear instead of a Wraithblade? Is giving up one attack really worth that shot?

...matter of fact, how does that shot even work? Is it a "wounds on 2+, S9 against vehicles" shot like its close combat capabilities, or just a "wounds everything on 4+", as S:X usually means? The codex (at least, the German one) is kinda unclear there, as it seems to talk only about how the Spear works in assault...

If the shot works the same way as it does in assault, I absolutely see why one would want to replace the Wraithblade, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make sense to get a Warlock (potentially also with a Singing Spear) for the other Jetbike-team, then? It would allow both teams to fulfill the same roles.

If I were going to make a Mech-List, it would look very different - I'd have a Seer Council-on-Jetbikes instead of Scorpions and probably a Squad of Shining Spears instead of the Fire Dragons - if you;re going to have Jetbikes, have LOTS of them, I say! - but as I said about your list would be the more balanced (and probably far more successful) one

Yay!

I'm curious, is it worth using Kharn in a CSM army? What I had in mind was: Him and berserkers in a land raider. Supported by some plague marines in Rhinos. Maybe a Dread or Defiler.

I'm somewhat doubtful about Kharn personally. Because, the way I see it, a regular undivided Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon comes much cheaper, and, while perhaps not wounding everything on 2s, he's usually got more attacks. And he doesn't slaughter his own squad in the process.
Though, I guess if you play against lots of Monstrous Creatures frequently, Kharn might be worth it.

[Arcanoi]

I'm somewhat doubtful about Kharn personally. Because, the way I see it, a regular undivided Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon comes much cheaper, and, while perhaps not wounding everything on 2s, he's usually got more attacks. And he doesn't slaughter his own squad in the process.
Though, I guess if you play against lots of Monstrous Creatures frequently, Kharn might be worth it.

Kharn hits on 2s. This is good, since just about nothing else does that in Close Combat. He's got WS7, so lots of stuff hits him on 5s. This is good, since his T4 3+/5++ save without Eternal Warrior is crap. He needs the charge to be worth his points, but he can give a nasty surprise to T3 and T4 models when 6 S6 I6 PW attacks roll in. Kharn is decent, and that's about it.

[lord_khaine]

I figured either the Rangers or the Fire Dragons. Though Wraith is absolutely right, putting him on a bike is infinitely superior, and I'm ashamed I didn't think of that (I kinda forgot that putting a Farseer on a bike does not immediately mean one has to build a Seer Council, which might be nice, but absolutely doesn't fit into the army points-wise).

What about leaving him inside a Waveserpent?

You mostly want him for his powers, and with the WS you can move him around the battlefield to where he is needet, while having the option of dropping a group of guidet Fire dragons to do some troubleshooting.

(with doom+guide being reverved for something really annoying, like huge angry Tyranids)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Though it is valid to say a good list is easier to play than a poor list.

Not always, at least not in games like fantasy warhammer that actually require tactics. A powerful empire list is very differant from an easy to use one, especially back in 6th edition.

[Tren]

Ignoring some of the more snide comments, lets address some points.

Yes it is.

Thank you for that elucidating tidbit of wisdom. Your reasoning is sound, your rhetoric flawless. Truly, I've never seen the "nuh-uh!" argument used to such inspiring effect.

High Strength doesn't mean anything if you still get a save.

That's a patently ridiculous statement. Are you saying you'll never fire at a unit unless you're going to ignore their armor saves? S6 is still quite important if it means you're wounding on a 2+. Given the proliferation of cover and 3++ saves in the game these days, volume of fire and forcing armor saves is often one of the best ways to deal units that have good saves. For all your argument that common sense is all you need to evaluate a unit's effectiveness, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain why wounding on a 2+ against most all infantry is better wounding on 3-6+.

Besides, the initial wounds from the blast isn't the main focus of the Nightspinner, it's the difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

At BS3, it doesn't really get that many Hits in the first place anyway.

With twin-linked BS3, it's more accurate than most blast weapons out there, like the Demolisher Cannon or Battle Cannon. Unless you're going to suggest all blast weapons are categorically unreliable to the point of uselessness, I fail to see how the Nightspinner is worse off than most blast options.

If someone is throwing AP- weapons, then I'm laughing. If I'm not playing Space Marines, then the Night Spinner still allows for cover saves.

If they're in area terrain, sure. If you're going to suggest that all of your opponent's models are always occupying area terrain, I'm calling shenanigans. With a 72'' barrage and a 12'' movement, it's rarely going to be an issue that there's not an exposed unit somewhere on the board to shoot at. And again, are you seriously suggesting that you'll never fire at unit if they've got a cover save?

As a Barrage weapon, it also causes Pinning, I'll give it that.

It can definitely be handy.

No it isn't. Because it's your opponent that decides who takes the wounds.

Not from a dangerous terrain test. The monofilament rule means the next time that unit moves every individual model has to take a dangerous terrain check, and has a 1/6 chance of taking a wound with no save.

D-Cannons. Also barrage. 3 of them for 150 points gives Multiple Barrage. They always wound on 2s (so could be equivalent to S6 most of the time). Are AP2, so will kill any and everything. Rending isn't an issue. And then on a 6, they get super-Rending causing Instant Death. The only thing that Night Spinners have over D-Cannons is range.

D-cannons are probably the best option for Support Weapons, but in general, Support Weapons are very easily killed, immobile, and probably overpriced. The D-cannon has 1/3 the range of the Spinner, can't relocate if necessary, and can fairly easily be wiped out by bolter fire. It is certainly more lethal than the Spinner, but they depend on the enemy coming to you, are fairly squishy, and doesn't have some of the suppressive utility of forcing difficult terrain checks.

A Dark Reaper Exarch with a Tempest Launcher on his own is better than a Night Spinner. Except that he's not on his own and has bodyguards to take wounds for him. For extra survivability.

That I'll agree to, but he's also a giant fire magnet. Any Marine player who has faced the exarch before will pull out all the stops to kill the Reapers and prevent them from removing an MEQ squad a turn. You're also talking ~150pt base for that setup, assuming you take a minimum-sized squad of 3 (not the best idea on a T3 unit, and you're talking 35pts for your ablative wounds there).

And to get the most bang for your buck on the Reaper exarch, he should really have a Fortune/Guide Seer backing him up. Even with BS5, the multiple barrage rules can hose you if you scatter bad enough on that first shot, and even a 3+ armor won't save you when most basic guns still wound you on a 3+. At this point you're talking a minimum of ~270pts and an HQ slot.

It'll absolutely kill MEQs like mad, but it costs a fair bit. It also won't make you any friends. People used to boycott my army if I had Dark Reapers in my list, to the point it's not worth fielding them anymore.

A Wraithlord takes dual Flamers, EML and Scatter Laser.

Very survivable, modest ranged firepower; not so great in a mobile, meched up list like mine that frequently plays the Reserves game. Also, more expensive.

Trip-War Walkers on Outflank with dual Scatter Lasers each.

Fantastic option. They're viable anti-armor, especially with the ability to outflank behind and nail back armor. They're fairly fragile though once they've outflanked. They're also more expensive, and generally speaking don't last very long if you deploy them regularly, meaning they'll tend to have fewer rounds of shooting due to outflanking.

FA 12 is not that tough. Especially if you're also not a Wave Serpent.

Absolutely agreed, though the Nightspinner has the advantage of being able to stay out of Line of Sight if need be, and with a 72'' range can outrange many anti-AV options.

Maybe you could try three Fire Prisms.

I have in fact, and in my experience the third one often ends up that the third one is, well, a third wheel. As far as anti-tank goes, it's a less accurate lascannon. And as far as anti-infantry, the games I've played with it have proven the Nightspinner to be a better anti-infantry option between the base S6 large blast, and the subsequent Dangerous Terrain checks, in addition to also being pinning and causing difficult terrain.

S6, AP3 is way better than S6, AP-, Rending.
Also, Fire Prisms are BS4, not BS3.

Yes, in the same way that $20 is better than $10. Because you're talking twice the number of points and HS slots. Not to mention, being direct fire there's much more likely to be intervening terrain/models granting cover, which sort of diminishes the AP3. Though admittedly, being able to angle and shoot from either prism tends to ameliorates that a bit.

Asdrubael Vect is a Fast, Skimming Land Raider. With two Disintegrators and a Dark Lance (and two Splinter Pistols), as BS6. Sure, he's Open-Topped, but, he's still Armour 14.

While I love the model, the fluff, and pretty much everything about Vect, he's still 277pts and a powerfist will make short work of his AV11 in close combat.

[Cheesegear]

Not always, at least not in games like fantasy warhammer that actually require tactics. A powerful empire list is very differant from an easy to use one, especially back in 6th edition.

WH40K and WHFB are two completely different games. WHFB has staggeringly more tactics and strategy required to play it than WH40K. In 40K, you can pick up a very powerful army, despite knowing near-nothing about the game, and win.

That's a patently ridiculous statement. Are you saying you'll never fire at a unit unless you're going to ignore their armor saves? S6 is still quite important if it means you're wounding on a 2+. Given the proliferation of cover and 3++ saves in the game these days, volume of fire and forcing armor saves is often one of the best ways to deal units that have good saves.

One of the best. But not the best. The best way to get rid of cover saves is to ingore it. The best way to deny armour saves is to have good AP. Which a Dark Reaper Exarch does in spades.
D-Cannons, also wound on 2s, but, are AP2. Also likely to get one or two more hits than the Large Blast.

For all your argument that common sense is all you need to evaluate a unit's effectiveness, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain why wounding on a 2+ against most all infantry is better wounding on 3-6+.

D-Cannons. Trip-War Walkers with Star Cannons.
Nowhere did I say that 'wounding on 2+ was bad'. I said it was bad if your opponent still gets a save. D-Cannons don't allow saves. War Walkers with Star Cannons pump out 24 S6 shots.

Besides, the initial wounds from the blast isn't the main focus of the Nightspinner, it's the difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

Which isn't very good against a Mechanised List. Either they have Dozer Blades or are Skimmers.
And it isn't very good against a stand-and-shoot list who aren't likely to move very much.

I fail to see how the Nightspinner is worse off than most blast options.

Don't think I ever said it was. But, due to Leman Russes being AV14 on the front, and Lumbering Behemoth rule, as well as another bunch of weapons on it. A Leman Russ is better than a Nightspinner.

If they're in area terrain, sure. If you're going to suggest that all of your opponent's models are always occupying area terrain

Most of the time.

And again, are you seriously suggesting that you'll never fire at unit if they've got a cover save?

Pretty sure every single argument you've had so far has been a Straw Man. Because that's not what I said at all.

Not from a dangerous terrain test. The monofilament rule means the next time that unit moves every individual model has to take a dangerous terrain check, and has a 1/6 chance of taking a wound with no save.

*shrug* 1/6 isn't enough to rely on. At least, not if I have to pay points for it which could be better spent on something else.

It is certainly more lethal than the Spinner, but they depend on the enemy coming to you, are fairly squishy, and doesn't have some of the suppressive utility of forcing difficult terrain checks.

What's the rest of your army doing to allow your D-Cannons to get shot at?

And to get the most bang for your buck on the Reaper exarch, he should really have a Fortune/Guide Seer backing him up.

He should. But he doesn't. He doesn't need it. For optimal configuration, sure probably. But he doesn't need to be that good when he ignores cover at AP3. Whatever he does hit is dead.

Even with BS5, the multiple barrage rules can hose you if you scatter bad enough on that first shot,

Ready. Check this out. This is a Straw Man...
With BS5 and Multiple Barrage, it's more accurate than most blast weapons out there, like the Plasma Cannon or Frag Missiles. Unless you're going to suggest all Blast weapons are categorically unreliable to the point of uselessness, I fail to see how Dark Reapers is worse off than most blast options.

and even a 3+ armor won't save you when most basic guns still wound you on a 3+. At this point you're talking a minimum of ~270pts and an HQ slot.

No. You are. I'm not.

It also won't make you any friends. People used to boycott my army if I had Dark Reapers in my list, to the point it's not worth fielding them anymore.

I've said it once before, there are some people on this board who definitely play in a very wussy meta-game. Tell them to harden the f* up. Tell them to learn how to Alpha Strike dangerous units.

Very survivable, modest ranged firepower; not so great in a mobile, meched up list like mine that frequently plays the Reserves game.

Then use Outflanking War Walkers with Starcannons. Use Autarchs.

Absolutely agreed, though the Nightspinner has the advantage of being able to stay out of Line of Sight if need be, and with a 72'' range can outrange many anti-AV options.

Except then Scatters max distance due to not being able to see.

Not to mention, being direct fire there's much more likely to be intervening terrain/models granting cover, which sort of diminishes the AP3.

No it doesn't. It doesn't do anything of the sort. If a Marine is standing in 4, or 5+ cover, AP3 means he's forced to take cover saves, rather than 3+. There's a reason that Marines are a lot less reliant on cover than most armies. Because their armour is better than most cover saves.

While I love the model, the fluff, and pretty much everything about Vect, he's still 277pts and a powerfist will make short work of his AV11 in close combat.

How did you get your Fast, Skimmer vehicle that's dedicated to shooting the crap out of stuff into Assault?

[EleventhHour]

Don't think I ever said it was. But, due to Leman Russes being AV14 on the front, and Lumbering Behemoth rule, as well as another bunch of weapons on it. A Leman Russ is better than a Nightspinner.

To be fair, there aren't many tanks better than a Leman Russ (or nine.)

[Winterwind]

What about leaving him inside a Waveserpent?

You mostly want him for his powers, and with the WS you can move him around the battlefield to where he is needet, while having the option of dropping a group of guidet Fire dragons to do some troubleshooting.

(with doom+guide being reverved for something really annoying, like huge angry Tyranids)

I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)

If so, that would work, too, though I still think Wraith's variant is likely superior (as it turns an otherwise nice but ignorable unit into something far more dangerous).


@Tren: So, again, would you mind posting that list you are using?

[Cheesegear]

To be fair, there aren't many tanks better than a Leman Russ (or nine.)

Agreed.

@Tren: So, again, would you mind posting that list you are using?

Also, agreed. What makes the Night Spinner so useful in your list when just about every other Eldar player I know pretty much ignores it?

[MountainKing]

Is it able to make Dangerous Terrain extra dangerous? Or is there a limit to how many Dangerous Terrain checks a unit gets subjected to per piece of terrain?

If you can force more DT checks, that might make it more worthwhile...

[Incomp]

That's an interesting question. I don't have my rulebook with me, but I would assume a unit takes one dangerous terrain test for every piece of dangerous terrain it passes through. So if you dropped it on a unit that was already in dangerous terrain, I guess they would have to take two checks, with potentially nasty results.

But like I said, I'm not with my rulebook right now.

[IthilanorStPete]

I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)

No on both counts - an IC has to join/leave a unit as part of his own movement.
EDIT: Corrected: See Keris Rain's post below.

[Winterwind]

Is it able to make Dangerous Terrain extra dangerous? Or is there a limit to how many Dangerous Terrain checks a unit gets subjected to per piece of terrain?

If you can force more DT checks, that might make it more worthwhile...

If you are already in Dangerous Terrain, turning the Dangerous Terrain into Dangerous Terrain will not change anything. You roll just one test. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works (cannot check to be entirely certain - still away from rulebook). But, how often does one see Dangerous Terrain anyway (outside of jump troops, bikes, vehicles or such moving through regular terrain)?

Also, somebody said before in this thread that failed Dangerous Terrain tests allow no save. As I said, I'm away from my rulebook, but I'm fairly sure that's not entirely accurate - Invulnerable Saves still apply.

No on both counts - an IC has to oin/leave a unit as part of his own movement.

Okay, thanks. That's what I thought.
In that case, keeping the Farseer in the Serpent at all times while dropping the Dragons when needed without him isn't going to work.

[MountainKing]

If you are already in Dangerous Terrain, turning the Dangerous Terrain into Dangerous Terrain will not change anything. You roll just one test. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works (cannot check to be entirely certain - still away from rulebook). But, how often does one see Dangerous Terrain anyway (outside of jump troops, bikes, vehicles or such moving through regular terrain)?

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Nightspinner; does it actually make the terrain Dangerous Terrain, or does it force the unit to make saves as if passing through Dangerous Terrain? If it's the latter, it could be said that it's not actually changing the terrain, it's just forcing the save.

[Keris]

I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)

No on both counts - an IC has to oin/leave a unit as part of his own movement.

It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".

[Winterwind]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Nightspinner; does it actually make the terrain Dangerous Terrain, or does it force the unit to make saves as if passing through Dangerous Terrain? If it's the latter, it could be said that it's not actually changing the terrain, it's just forcing the save.

As far as I remember, it's formulated as "The next time the unit moves, it counts as if moving through Difficult and Dangerous Terrain".

It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".

Oh, okay. In that case, it would work.

...think I'll try doing the jetbike thing nonetheless though, if I can figure out a good-looking way to get a Farseer onto a Jetbike in the first place.

[IthilanorStPete]

It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".

...Huh. Never noticed that part!

[MountainKing]

As far as I remember, it's formulated as "The next time the unit moves, it counts as if moving through Difficult and Dangerous Terrain".

So... maybe? I don't have the Eldar codex, so I'm still as uninformed as I was when I asked the first question, but I would be inclined to say that if it doesn't actually change the terrain type for a turn, it's just forcing the save... so if the unit is already in Difficult Terrain, it would be taking two.

At the same time, that strikes me as cheesy and loopholey (and it's my perspective!), so I'm probably wrong.

[lord_khaine]

So... maybe? I don't have the Eldar codex, so I'm still as uninformed as I was when I asked the first question, but I would be inclined to say that if it doesn't actually change the terrain type for a turn, it's just forcing the save... so if the unit is already in Difficult Terrain, it would be taking two.

The Nightspinner isnt in the eldar codex, that might very well also explain why so few people are using it.

Also, agreed. What makes the Night Spinner so useful in your list when just about every other Eldar player I know pretty much ignores

The efford it would take to get a model they are not even sure would work?

[Cheesegear]

The effort it would take to get a model they are not even sure would work?

Proxies for a few games would tell you exactly how it works. If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area, you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it. I've never seen a single person use it since it was released. Actually, Tren is the only person I have ever seen that likes it.

No-one I physically know - myself included - uses the Night Spinner. What makes it so important in Tren's list? What is the rest of his list?

Why on earth would you need a 72" range weapon (on top of a 12" move) outside of Apocalypse? I'm a Space Marine player, and I have never noticed not having more than 48" range. The Thunderfire Cannon is the only thing with 60" range, and even then it never moves, and I don't recall ever needing the 60" anyway. And, even then, I'm starting to ditch the TfC for more 48" range weapons...