Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Winterwind]

That is...not the case.
You get a 4+ cover save only if you are a Fast Skimmer that has moved more than 12".

I'm away from my rulebook, and it has never been relevant to me, so I may be wrong, but I don't think you need to be a Skimmer for that. Moving more than 12" should be enough, no matter what you are.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm away from my rulebook, and it has never been relevant to me, so I may be wrong, but I don't think you need to be a Skimmer for that. Moving more than 12" should be enough, no matter what you are.

It's only Fast Skimmers.

[SmartAlec]

Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

Well. Assuming that the Tau player has allowed you to do this by deploying both tanks close enough to each other - an unforgivable mistake - the Sternguard will still be destroyed, for certain. Jumping into the middle of a Tau army is a death sentence.

Essentially, you're betting 300+ points worth of stuff and putting it in fatal danger for the chance of getting first-strike-kill capacity... on 300 points worth of stuff.

In a regular 1500 points game, that's a whole fifth of your army you're gambling with there.

And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.

This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.

[One Step Two]

Well. Assuming that the Tau player has allowed you to do this by deploying both tanks close enough to each other - an unforgivable mistake - the Sternguard will still be destroyed, for certain. Jumping into the middle of a Tau army is a death sentence.

Essentially, you're betting 300+ points worth of stuff and putting it in fatal danger for the chance of getting first-strike-kill capacity... on 300 points worth of stuff.

In a regular 1500 points game, that's a whole fifth of your army you're gambling with there.

And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.

This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.

Firstly, you're not wrong. It's a risk, a heavy one, but there's a reason for that. First and foremost, depending on your deployment, some players have little choice about how and where they can deploy vehicles, especially if they want to keep them hull down, or out of LoS, if you're a canny player, you can choose a deployment which does just that. Forcing a tight deployment to maximise the impact of such a manuever.

Secondly, it's a worthwhile sacrafice, even if it is 1/5th of your army, because that's 2 units of sternguard (since they combat squad'd up) and the still armed Drop pod to contend with in the tau deployment area. This forces them to drop whatever tactics they planned to immediately shoot everything at the big fat menaces in their DZ, it means the rest of your army is now less likely to be shot at in the following turn. And if those 3+ saves do their thing, it may mean that those Sternguard live to be a present threat for another turn.

Losing peice of peice doesn't seem to make sense untill you remember, there's more than one peice in the game. Exposing a rook to be taken by a bishop may mean you can move the queen to threaten other peices.

[Winterwind]

It's only Fast Skimmers.

Oh. Okay. In that case, my bad, sorry.

And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.

Sternguard have combi-melters. 10 of them. There's no need for them to go for side or rear armour, and the likelihood of the targets they shoot at surviving is... not very high.

This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.

The thing is, it's the Space Marine player who decides which chess pieces get exchanged. They see how your army is deployed, they see what you have, and then they decide in which place exactly they can drop the Sternguard to cause the most damage to your army and your plans. So, even if it ends up being a 300 points for 300 points exchange, the Space Marine player has lost 300 points that had no role in his plans other than doing their job and dying there, while you have lost the 300 points the Space Marine player deemed to be the most dangerous and crucial for your cause.

[ShadowFighter15]

In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...

Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese.
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.

This is why I was reluctant to take him, would've felt like I was being too cheesy.

He was referring to your "good on paper, bad in practice" line. As in, multi-meltaing Land Speeders are good on paper but bad in practice - but not if you use He'Stan.

Ah.

[SmartAlec]

I think this kind of strategy is much more effective against some armies than others.

Against, for example, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons etc you're often dealing with the same philosophy of army selection. These are not flexible armies; they're often built around a solid core. If you break part of that core, you can often collapse them.

Against other armies, things change a bit. Tau can rapidly redeploy firepower. Tyranids can swarm you. Eldar and Dark Eldar sit in the middle of that, Eldar being an interesting combination of flexibility and specialisation. These armies are, I think, intended to be less based around a core and more flexible in terms of the distribution and speed of their killpower. Few units are essential. Each of these forces has the capability to accommodate a punch like that.

You can still play Tau or Eldar or even Tyranids as if they're Space Marines, but I think that's the wrong way to go about this. And when I say that this kind of sacrificial move is entirely the wrong way to go about fighting them, I mean it. You're right in that the highest level of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans rather than their army, but that works both ways. If the enemy knows you're prepared to try and sacrifice your troops this way, then he or she can be ready for it.

If you've ever played chess, then you might know that early attempts to push piece-exchanges rarely go well, unless you know exactly what you're doing and your opponent does not.

Most of the Tau victories I've seen happen very much the same way. The Tau army is deployed across the board; the enemy advance, there's some first strikes; the Tau defeat the first strikes, and back off, consolidating; the enemy army continues to advance, but is eventually whittled down; the Tau army begins advancing again around turn 4 as the enemy's killpower is steadily reduced.

Maybe you've had different experiences, but experience has made me be very doubtful concerning the sacrificial-squad approach, here.

(As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)

[Winterwind]

I think this kind of strategy is much more effective against some armies than others.

*explanation*

Maybe you've had different experiences, but experience has made me be very doubtful concerning the sacrificial-squad approach, here.

Your reasoning is sound. While I'd think there usually was some target that was more crucial to the opponent and his or her plans than the rest, I could easily see that strategy falter against a foe against which it is poorly suited. I'll just have to take your word for it - firstly, it's been a while since I played against Tau the last time, secondly, I don't play Space Marines myself anyway, so all my experiences with drop-podding Sternguard is from when it was used against me (and more often than not, it actually failed - I may be playing Chaos Space Marines, but I have no Land Raiders, no Defilers, and my most vulnerable and important squads are always deployed in cover, so the worst thing the Sternguard can do is blowing up my Rhinos - which tend to stand far apart). But I've watched enough games/played in 2v2s, where it proved devastating - especially against heavily mechanized lists. Like, the Sternguard blowing up a Chaos Land Raider and a Defiler in a single turn against a different CSM player.

(As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)

Oh, there is no doubt at all that they'll die. The question is whether whatever they take down before they do makes that worth it, and how beneficial to the Space Marine player them drawing all the fire away from the rest of the army proves to be.

[dsmiles]

Matter of fact, part of the reason these two people played a list as ridiculous as that is that they wanted to prove to the store owner that allowing IA at tournaments was a bad idea.

Really? Taros Campaign doesn't seem that overpowered for what it gives the Tau (read: mostly kroot and kroot-related stuff). The variant XV8s aren't that potent, and the only one that can't get those options through the normal 'dex is the XV81 (smart missiles). The pathfinder tetra is junk (IMO), and I don't know anyone who plays with the aircraft. Granted, I like the heavy drones, and the new XV9s are pretty awesome (again IMO), but they're not in the IA series yet, just a rule sheet that comes with the model.

[Winterwind]

Really? Taros Campaign doesn't seem that overpowered for what it gives the Tau (read: mostly kroot and kroot-related stuff). The variant XV8s aren't that potent, and the only one that can't get those options through the normal 'dex is the XV81 (smart missiles). The pathfinder tetra is junk (IMO), and I don't know anyone who plays with the aircraft. Granted, I like the heavy drones, and the new XV9s are pretty awesome (again IMO), but they're not in the IA series yet, just a rule sheet that comes with the model.

What I've heard about the IA books so far indicates that they are full of tons and tons and tons of choices ranging between 'badly underpowered' and 'okay-ish', with a few that are so ridiculously overpowered in between that every 12 year old munchkin would have been too ashamed to come up with them. Of course, pretty much only the latter ones get used...

[dsmiles]

What I've heard about the IA books so far indicates that they are full of tons and tons and tons of choices ranging between 'badly underpowered' and 'okay-ish', with a few that are so ridiculously overpowered in between that every 12 year old munchkin would have been too ashamed to come up with them. Of course, pretty much only the latter ones get used...

Probably typical gaming company stuff: give the overpowered stuff to the most used armies, and the average stuff to the less used ones. That's probably why it worked out well for the Tau with not being overpowered.

[Winterwind]

Probably typical gaming company stuff: give the overpowered stuff to the most used armies, and the average stuff to the less used ones. That's probably why it worked out well for the Tau with not being overpowered.

Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem atrociously balanced, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better.

I usually try to be as open to the other players playing whatever they want to play as I can (though I dislike the vast prevalence of Special Characters around here greatly), but I have drawn the line at Imperial Armour. I flat-out refuse to play against armies utilizing that.

...of course, at tournaments, one doesn't really have a choice regarding that. Almost makes me glad I missed that one.

[dsmiles]

Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem overpowered, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better.

Yeah. I can't say that the Tau got shafted, but I'm willing to bet DE did. Did they even do an IA for DE?

[Winterwind]

I don't know, but I don't think so. (Also, I made an edit to my last post)

[dsmiles]

I'll pretty much play against anybody, SC, IA or whatever. I lose a lot, being a beginner, and all. I've never been shafted by somebody using FW stuff, and I can't say I would feel bad if somebody did use it against me to great effect. After all, it's a war, it's a game, and both of those are about winning (except most Roleplaying Games). To me, all's fair, as long as it's legal by the books.

[Winterwind]

The problem is that some things possible in Imperial Armour can literally prevent you from playing. It really is possible you put your army on the table, the opponent gets the first turn, and when your turn comes around, you'll find that half your army is already gone or tied up in close combats it will die to when the close combat phase rolls around. A turn later, your entire army is gone. I don't mind losing, but if half my models vanish before I can even do anything with them, what's the point in putting them out there in the first place?

[dsmiles]

The problem is that some things possible in Imperial Armour can literally prevent you from playing. It really is possible you put your army on the table, the opponent gets the first turn, and when your turn comes around, you'll find that half your army is already gone or tied up in close combats it will die to when the close combat phase rolls around. A turn later, your entire army is gone. I don't mind losing, but if half my models vanish before I can even do anything with them, what's the point in putting them out there in the first place?

While I see your point, I like a little realism in wargaming. You know, "the country with the most money in their military budget wins." I just wish our country had more money in their military budget. I just don't get paid enough to play Warhammer (so I'm switching to mostly Warmachine, with Warhammer as a side project).

[onasuma]

You're aware you can get Tactical Marines instead, right? ...For the same points cost!?

Of course I could, but I try to play a very agile list in which infiltrate, scout, and move through cover are a key point. Small groups of scouts run move into cover close to the enemy deployment zone and rapid fire at them while the real men move in in rasorbacks.

[crazedloon]

Did they even do an IA for DE?

No they have 2 vehicles in the entire series of IA. Each of them fliers and IMHO each of them worse than a ravager which is half the price.

[MountainKing]

IRT Land Raider/Hammerhead discussion: Honestly, I think it's kind of pointless to compare the two of them, because the two things have different roles. The Hammerhead is for reaching out and touching somebody with a really big gun, and the Land Raider is for driving up, spewing out a bunch of infantry, and helping *them* reach out and touch somebody. It's kind of apples to oranges, in my mind.

By statline only, the Land Raider is "better". It's got more guns, more armor, and a really sweet ability.

Getting all crazy into discussing how different tactics and such make either tank explode is kind of silly; sure, it's the point of the thread, but that's tactics. When you're comparing two units, shouldn't it be more about the size of the hammer, and not about how you wield it?

[lord_khaine]

So, i recently noticed Space Marine vehicles with the ability to ignore either the melta or the lance rule, how ordinary is that, and who is it that gets it?

[Wraith]

Black Templars' Land Raider Crusader can get a 'Blessed Hull', which negates the 'Lance' special rule. Daemonhunters almost get a 'Blessed' upgrade for their vehicles, but it's a different ability with a similar name.

....And that seems to be it, unless there is something in the Imperial Armour books that I (and, I have to admit, no one I have ever met in person) own.

[Trixie]

Stormraven and Caestus Ram both have ceramite (anti-melta) armor. I remember something else does. GK vehicle? Monolith ignores melta as well. Though, half of the melta weapons aren't really "melta", so that ability doesn't help as much.

[Wraith]

GK Vehicles don't get it, they get 'Blessed' instead (an upgrade that makes it harder for Daemons to Assault them). Well remembered on the Stormraven, though I don't think even the most bizarre of2v2 armies would feature a Space Marine Monolith!

Also, just had to Google a Caestus Ram to find out what it actually was - way to go with the obscure reference, Trixie
Good God, but it's an ugly model though.....

[lord_khaine]

Ahh, nice to hear those abilities isnt that common again, and cant be combined by SM.

I guess a handful of Brightlances and a bus full of fire dragons should keep me safe then :)

[One Step Two]

Way back in 3rd Edition, when some Chapters (mostly the founding ones) had their own rules, Salamanders had Ceramite Plating Vehicle upgrade, which made their tanks who bought it, immune to the Melta rule. I miss my salamanders army. Chaplin with Thunder Hammers for free, the original Salamander Mantle which was the forebarer of the Adamantine Mantle, and dual flamer (well, any assault weapon really) Tactical squads, with the drawbacks that they all acted at one less iniative than their codex entries, and all Fast attack choices were 0-1.

[MountainKing]

Ahh, nice to hear those abilities isnt that common again, and cant be combined by SM.

I guess a handful of Brightlances and a bus full of fire dragons should keep me safe then :)

I'll wager that if somebody wanted to play around using Allies, they could find a way to nullify one of those two things. In the grimdark future, you're never truly safe.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem atrociously balanced, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better.

Not so! The Big Squiggoth is pretty ridiculous too!
Not as ridiculous as the Breaching Drill, which is and always will be the most ludicrously overpowered piece of kit in IA, but pretty bad.

GK Vehicles don't get it, they get 'Blessed' instead (an upgrade that makes it harder for Daemons to Assault them). Well remembered on the Stormraven, though I don't think even the most bizarre of2v2 armies would feature a Space Marine Monolith!

If we're talking Blood Angels, there is precedent.

[Cheesegear]

I did put them together under the assumption I'd be able to get them in a Land Raider, but I won't be buying the model of it for a while and I'm not sure how to work it into the list.

That...Unsettles me. That you bought Terminators to be used in conjunction with another model that
a) You don't have. And is also one of the single-most expensive things in the hobby outside of Forgeworld, and so you're unlikely to get it for quite some time anyway, and
b) You can't work the Land Raider into a list anyway.

...It's a common mistake. GW Staff convince people to buy models that they can't and/or don't know how to use all the time. However, I kind of get the feeling that this was a concious descision on your part to do what you've done - which kind of makes it worse.

Might do, and if I have a body left over I might be able to make a Terminator-clad Captain/Chapter Master for future use.

Maybe. You should have ten Terminator Bodies from two boxes. If you have Hammers and Shield to spare, I'd put those on your Terminators first. Then, I'd make four LC Terminators, just so you can make that magic 4:1 ratio of LC/THs.

You should have 4 Lightning Claws, 5 Thunder Hammers. And a tenth body to spare.

Then use that 10th 'spare' Terminator, give him all the 'Sergeant' upgrades from the regular Terminator box (that you don't get in the Assault Terminator box), and make him a Chapter Master. I wouldn't make him a Captain, because Captains are much better on Bikes or Jump Packs, IMO.

Or use a unique Captain.

The other thing you can do with your last Terminator, is make a Chapter-Appropriate Marneus Calgar (Chapter Master, told you). Everyone needs one. I still haven't made my Vladamir Pugh. Which kind of disappoints me. And I don't really know how to make a Hawk Lords' (Raven Guard) Calgar.

I was also planning from the start to run it with a Pod; if I'm going to have a dread starting on my side of the table, he'll be packing the biggest guns I can get my hands on (which at the moment are the lascannon & missile rack from the kit).

Venerable Dreadnoughts are good for that, as they have extra BS, and can force your opponent to re-roll those Crew Stunned/Shaken rolls to Weapon Destroyeds or Immobiliseds.

I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.

It really depends on what's in them. And where they land.

It was supposed to be a 1750 point list

...So...I managed to pull ~190 points out of your list that you 'wasted'. And you're telling me that you still had another 30 points to go...And you couldn't work in Terminators?
Twin Dakka-Preds? Autolas Preds?

230 Points is also twin Vindicators. Just saying.

Alas, in one game they were up against an Inquisitor with two Mystics, who was able to mess up those incoming Dreadnoughts

Uhh...Somebody cheated. The Drop Pod is the thing that Deep Strikes. The Dreadnought is merely disembarking from a vehicle, not Deep Striking.

Quite a few people get that wrong, actually. Mystics should not have given shots against them.

You can't Assault - or move - out of a normal Drop Pod, not because you just Deep Striked, but because the squad inside just disembarked from a Transport that had just counted as moving at combat speed. It's also super-sweet that you can land next to terrain (because a Drop Pod does that) and deploy from the Drop Pod, 2" straight into cover, no dangerous terrain saves required. Because you're exiting a Transport, not Deep Striking.

That makes it even worse, as it proves he improves precisely the parts of the codex even more powerful that are the most powerful already anyway.

The reason He'Stan is so good is that he improves Flamers and Heavy Flamers. Generally regarded as 'crap' and 'mediocre' respectively. He also makes Combi-Meltas on everything that can take one viable. He makes Land Speeders with dual Heavy Flamers (or Multi-Meltas) viable, etc.

Hammernators and Suicide Sternguard are super-powerful already. He'Stan doesn't really change that.

Re-rollable S6 attacks combined with 2+/3+ saves are not scary? I beg to differ.

He's pretty much Lysander without Eternal Warrior. He loses S10 for S6, Initiative. And fires a Master-Crafted Heavy Flamer. And can Sweeping Advance.

I mostly only use Lysander because in my meta-game, Eternal Warrior is pretty much mandatory, and my army setup benefits from Stubborn tremendously. I don't even have any Flamers, I sometimes use Heavy Flamers on my Sternguard, but they're the first things I take out when I need more points for a different army concept, etc.
I don't have Hammernators (because Lysander's in the army), and Sternguard Combi-Meltas missing is made up for by having lots of Combi-Meltas.

He'Stan is wasted on me. If I wanted that kind of army, though, I'd have it.

Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

ORLY? You've never seen a Pedro-style army in action?

First and foremost, depending on your deployment, some players have little choice about how and where they can deploy vehicles

Spearhead f*s you up. Especially if your opponent - who deploys first - actually knows how to play Spearhead effectively. I've mentioned how to do it a few times in my Battle Reports.

Secondly, it's a worthwhile sacrafice, even if it is 1/5th of your army, because that's 2 units of sternguard (since they combat squad'd up) and the still armed Drop pod to contend with in the tau deployment area.

This. If your army starts falling back, you've got enemy units within 6" so you can't regroup. Do Bonding Knives help with that? ATSKNF doesn't...

If you failed your Morale check on your opponent's turn, and can't regroup on your turn, you've just run away for two turns in your own Deployment Zone. You're off the board.

This forces them to drop whatever tactics they planned to immediately shoot everything at the big fat menaces in their DZ, it means the rest of your army is now less likely to be shot at in the following turn. And if those 3+ saves do their thing, it may mean that those Sternguard live to be a present threat for another turn.

This. Again. Due to the way Sternguard work, the first turn they drop, they should lay waste to whatever they're pointed at. In your opponent's turn, they should get shot at, take a few casualties. In your turn again, they've probably done their thing, and should be just softening up whatever the next high-value target is for the rest of your army.

Suicide Sternguard are for killing things that need to die in the first turn.

Losing peice of peice doesn't seem to make sense untill you remember, there's more than one peice in the game. Exposing a rook to be taken by a bishop may mean you can move the queen to threaten other peices.

This pretty much defines everything that's wrong with 'this unit is better than that unit' discusstions, as the game is played as a whole. Not individual units versing each other.

As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)

Oh, there is no doubt at all that they'll die. The question is whether whatever they take down before they do makes that worth it, and how beneficial to the Space Marine player them drawing all the fire away from the rest of the army proves to be.

Winterwind QFT. They don't call them Suicide Sternguard for nothing you know. It's true for just about any army, ever. Whatever you have, in your opponent's Deployment Zone is going to die...Or your opponent is an idiot.

However, you, being a smart player, have put them in your opponent's Dragonball Z for a reason. Because whatever that particular unit is, can do an f*ton of damage when it's in the middle of everything.

Put a proper unit (ten, so they can take casualties) of Scouts with a Locator Beacon near, or in your opponent's DZ. Use a Land Speeder Storm, or get Shrike to make them Fleet.

Use Tigurius to get your Reserves in. Or play Blood Angels for DoA. Watch as you drop two or three units of Vanguard into your opponent's Dying Zebras on the second turn.

Drop Hammernators in. Anytime. Your opponent will have a panic attack.
Drop Ironclads or Librarian Furiosos. Unless your opponent is playing Tyranids or MC Eldar (MCs > Walkers), he'll have a panic attack too.

Play Dark Eldar. Put a Webway portal in your opponent's DZ. Wreak havoc. Of course, there are ways to beat a Webway Portal, but, since no-one plays Dark Eldar anymore, only the most competitive players (or people who read it in a forum one time...) will know how to completely ruin it.

Drop nine Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters.
Drop Zoanthropes.
Drop 20+ Gargoyles and/or Hive Tyrants (with wings).
Drop Malan'Tai.
Ymgarls. Lictors. Deathleaper.

Hell, even Tau have Crisis Suits.

...The thought that 'they're going to die' is not the thought you have when you Deep Strike into your opponent's DZ. It's how much carnage they can pull off when they get there.
...Of course, it takes finesse.

Yeah. I can't say that the Tau got shafted, but I'm willing to bet DE did. Did they even do an IA for DE?

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.

[SmartAlec]

Suicide Sternguard are for killing things that need to die in the first turn.

...The thought that 'they're going to die' is not the thought you have when you Deep Strike into your opponent's DZ. It's how much carnage they can pull off when they get there.
...Of course, it takes finesse.

I don't like these four sentences.

If your battleplan is contingent on something being destroyed in the first turn, it's not a very good plan. In fact, I don't think there IS such a thing as 'needs to die in the first turn', outside of Imperial Armor.

And I don't think 'finesse' is the word to use to describe suicidal attacks. That is the very opposite of finesse. That is classic Imperium brute-force tactics at their most basic. If you can win often without putting your troops onto fatal terrain and without losing a squad, then I think you will be able to speak of finesse.

Is defensive strategy a lost art? It feels that way, sometimes.

EDIT: Don't think I don't understand the nature of sudden first-strikes. I do. I can see the value of forcing your opponent to redeploy, and of attempting to cripple the enemy's best units asap. But the trouble with these things is, once you've used them on someone once, they know what's coming and that tactic is much less effective against them.

It's Fool's Mate, to bring back the chess metaphor.