One Piece -- Discussion

[AtlanteanTroll]

Out of villain territory?
He is a pirate and a supernove, he is standing quite firmly in there.

Luffy is also a pirate and a supernova.

So ... Shibukai.

Mihawk (Former Bounty: ???)
Doflamingo (Former Bounty: 340M)
Kuma (Former Bounty: 296M)
Hancock (Former Bounty: 80M)
Law (Former Bounty: 440M)

What do people think Mihawk's former bounty range was? Above Law, below Law but above Doflamingo, or below Doflamingo?

[lord_khaine]

Luffy is also a pirate and a supernova.

Luffy might be a supernova, but so far he is just a guy pretending to be a pirate, the only claim he has on that title is a black flag, and the ability to claim he actualy is a pirate so many times that people will start beliving him

[Kato]

So ... Shibukai.

Mihawk (Former Bounty: ???)
Doflamingo (Former Bounty: 340M)
Kuma (Former Bounty: 296M)
Hancock (Former Bounty: 80M)
Law (Former Bounty: 440M)

What do people think Mihawk's former bounty range was? Above Law, below Law but above Doflamingo, or below Doflamingo?

I don't think it's that simple... Thing is, they certainly didn't become Shibukai and stopped doing things... their former bounty is hardly an estimate for anything about them, except maybe how strong they were when they were 'recruited'.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What do people think Mihawk's former bounty range was? Above Law, below Law but above Doflamingo, or below Doflamingo?

I've no idea but given that Mihawk seems to be on par with the Yonko for pure infamy I'm going with either the biggest we will ever see... or essentially non-existent. Like nobody even survived to report his crimes so they had to be pieced together and he was offered Shichibukai without ever accruing a bounty.

[Frozen_Feet]

Luffy might be a supernova, but so far he is just a guy pretending to be a pirate, the only claim he has on that title is a black flag, and the ability to claim he actualy is a pirate so many times that people will start beliving him

Excuse me? Luffy has broken into several Marine facilities, hijacked Marine vessels, mowed down Marines who were just doing their job, broken a host of high-profile criminals from the world's highest security prison, waged war against the World Government and physically assaulted leading nobles of the world. "Pirate" is an understatement - "Public Enemy #1" would be more like it.

Or would be, but his daddy is #1.

If your forget Nami's antics, he and his crew are pretty mild on "take their stuff" equation of "beat people and take their stuff" piratism, but they still have a mile-long criminal record.

... just to think of it, there aren't many unambiguously good guys in One Piece, are there? Even Luffy doesn't consider himself a hero, and what he did to save Ace was pretty questionable all things granted.

[Frozen_Feet]

Luffy might be a supernova, but so far he is just a guy pretending to be a pirate, the only claim he has on that title is a black flag, and the ability to claim he actualy is a pirate so many times that people will start beliving him

Excuse me? Luffy has broken into several Marine facilities, hijacked Marine vessels, mowed down Marines who were just doing their job, broken a host of high-profile criminals from the world's highest security prison, waged war against the World Government and physically assaulted leading nobles of the world. "Pirate" is an understatement - "Public Enemy #1" would be more like it.

Or would be, but his daddy is #1.

If your forget Nami's antics, he and his crew are pretty mild on "take their stuff" equation of "beat people and take their stuff" piratism, but they still have a mile-long criminal record.

... just to think of it, there aren't many unambiguously good guys in One Piece, are there? Even Luffy doesn't consider himself a hero, and what he did to save Ace was pretty questionable all things granted.

[Frozen_Feet]

Luffy might be a supernova, but so far he is just a guy pretending to be a pirate, the only claim he has on that title is a black flag, and the ability to claim he actualy is a pirate so many times that people will start beliving him

Excuse me? Luffy has broken into several Marine facilities, hijacked Marine vessels, mowed down Marines who were just doing their job, broken a host of high-profile criminals from the world's highest security prison, waged war against the World Government and physically assaulted leading nobles of the world. "Pirate" is an understatement - "Public Enemy #1" would be more like it.

Or would be, but his daddy is #1.

If your forget Nami's antics, he and his crew are pretty mild on "take their stuff" equation of "beat people and take their stuff" piratism, but they still have a mile-long criminal record.

... just to think of it, there aren't many unambiguously good guys in One Piece, are there? Even Luffy doesn't consider himself a hero, and what he did to save Ace was pretty questionable all things granted.

[lord_khaine]

Excuse me? Luffy has broken into several Marine facilities, hijacked Marine vessels, mowed down Marines who were just doing their job, broken a host of high-profile criminals from the world's highest security prison, waged war against the World Government and physically assaulted leading nobles of the world. "Pirate" is an understatement - "Public Enemy #1" would be more like it.

Or would be, but his daddy is #1.

Yes, that gives him a claim to the title "Rebel #2", but it has nothing to do with being a pirate

[AtlanteanTroll]

Yes, that gives him a claim to the title "Rebel #2", but it has nothing to do with being a pirate

He's a criminal and he lives on a boat. What more is there too it?

[Frozen_Feet]

Precisely.

[lord_khaine]

He's a criminal and he lives on a boat. What more is there too it?

You are clearly forgetting he is doing his crimes on dry land!

[AtlanteanTroll]

You are clearly forgetting he is doing his crimes on dry land!

First of all, they're islands. Dry they may be, but they're also surrounded by water. Second of all, so what? Pirates can't have boarding missions (that at times involves storming countries)? What of the Baratie arc?

[Soras Teva Gee]

... just to think of it, there aren't many unambiguously good guys in One Piece, are there? Even Luffy doesn't consider himself a hero, and what he did to save Ace was pretty questionable all things granted.

Well there's always Coby isn't there? And some background characters limited to their location

Though yeah any claims to Luffy lacking moral ambiguity go out the window with setting Crocodile Emporio Ivankov loose on the world once more.

[lord_khaine]

First of all, they're islands. Dry they may be, but they're also surrounded by water. Second of all, so what? Pirates can't have boarding missions (that at times involves storming countries)? What of the Baratie arc?

A pirate who works on dry land isnt a pirate, he is a robber.

But if we ignore his acts of rebellion (who should be going towards his title of rebel #2, then he has only just about done enough to be called a Thief Treassure hunter.

[DiscipleofBob]

A pirate who works on dry land isnt a pirate, he is a robber.

But if we ignore his acts of rebellion (who should be going towards his title of rebel #2, then he has only just about done enough to be called a Thief Treassure hunter.

Um... pirate can rob people who are on land. Pirates aren't some mystical race of aquatic creature that lose their status whenever they step on dry land. They're pirates. Outlaws who travel around in a ship and do generally naughty things.

Outlaw + Ship = Pirate.

Luffy = Pirate.

[hanzo66]

Well, the Straw Hats are pirates in that they're pretty big enemies of the Government. They don't exactly go around raiding villages but they do piss off the wrong people.

[lord_khaine]

Um... pirate can rob people who are on land. Pirates aren't some mystical race of aquatic creature that lose their status whenever they step on dry land. They're pirates. Outlaws who travel around in a ship and do generally naughty things.

Outlaw + Ship = Pirate.

Luffy = Pirate.

Yes, pirates can rob people while on land as well, but when they doesnt do any of their robbing on sea (or for that matter, any robbing at all), then they are no longer pirates.

Also, your equations are wrong.

Outlaw + Ship = Outlaw who likes sailing.

Luffy = Rebel & Thief.

edit.

Well, the Straw Hats are pirates in that they're pretty big enemies of the Government. They don't exactly go around raiding villages but they do piss off the wrong people.

Yes, and thats whats making them rebels.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yes, pirates can rob people while on land as well, but when they doesnt do any of their robbing on sea (or for that matter, any robbing at all), then they are no longer pirates.

Yes, and thats whats making them rebels.

Your argument is not only completely semantics, it's also bad semantics.

Your definition of pirate is either extremely specific or wildly inaccurate.

While admittedly the focus in One Piece isn't on the actual robbery, the crew of One Piece regularly beats up marines and other pirates and takes their treasure to fund their own coffers (though admittedly most of the stealing is done by Nami), it's just most of that is either off-screen or during the credits.

[lord_khaine]

Your argument is not only completely semantics, it's also bad semantics.

Wow, and this is comming from the guy who set up the Outlaw + ship thing?

Your definition of pirate is either extremely specific or wildly inaccurate.

My definition of piracy is the historical one, and its still a lot more precise than yours, who seems to be something on the line of Black flag = Pirate.

But since you are so overconfident in your claims, then why dont you then find me just a singel case of the OP crew violently assulting a merchant ship of some sort, to take their cargo?

While admittedly the focus in One Piece isn't on the actual robbery, the crew of One Piece regularly beats up marines and other pirates and takes their treasure to fund their own coffers (though admittedly most of the stealing is done by Nami), it's just most of that is either off-screen or during the credits.

Well, im refering to the manga, since i dont trust the filler the anime crew might have put in.

And besides that, firstly theft isnt the same as piracy, and the independent actions of one crewmember can not be aplied to the entire crew, or they would all be archeologist as well.

But anyway, i can find tons of examples on them being sailing rebels, but i would really like to see where they are doing some piracy now.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Oda says they're pirates, so they're pirates. Done deal.

[DiscipleofBob]

Your definition of piracy, not that you actually seem to have given one, is someone who "violently assults" specifically a merchant ship to take their cargo. Like I said, extremely specific. By that definition, there aren't any pirates in One Piece, or most of pirate-based fiction for that matter. Sure, numerous self-proclaimed pirates attack and raid marine bases and ships as well as other pirate ships and their treasure, but that apparently doesn't count. Jack Sparrow? Not a pirate, clearly. He never once violently assults a merchant ship to take their cargo. Sure, he outwits law enforcement, steals a prized navy vessel, lies, cheats, and cons pretty much every other character in the movies, but it's the violence against merchant ships that count.

Historically, pirates would rarely directly assault merchant ships, opting instead to sneak on board and steal goods, mostly because suffering damages to the ship and losses to the crew is costly.

(EDIT: Also, unnecessary risk to the ship and crew was against the Pirate Code, which is apparently a real thing and one of the earliest forms of democracy. Damn I love my anthropologist fiance.)

Regardless, trying to apply the historical definition of a pirate to One Piece is like trying to apply the historical definition of a ninja to Naruto or applying the historical definition of a wizard to Harry Potter or Fairy Tail. Defining a pirate as someone who commits unlawful actions with the aid of a seafaring vessel is a logical conclusion to make on the series. He can't be classified as Rebel because his actions have no political motivation. He, and the rest of the pirates in the series, are purely self-serving.

[Xondoure]

Bing definition:

1.
robber at sea: a robber who operates from a ship on the ocean.

This is the real life definition. And it loosely covers the straw hat crew (not all that loosely when you think of the cost to the food supplies of all the countries they visit. )

The Oda definition seems to be seafaring criminal with a bounty on their head and a crew behind them. Which fits them to a T.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Why Bing. Seriously ... Why. Why. *is carried off on a stretcher muttering* So. Back on topic.

Law fought the law, and joined the law. Law fought the law, and joined the law.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Law fought the Law and the Law Won!


In One Piece isn't piracy defined by the Marines as literally flying a Jolly Roger. You do it and you are a pirate, end of story. That whatever else you do or do not do, you are a pirate that has abandoned the law and should be brought to justice. Its not like the Marines don't love being stupidly specific on these sorts of thing.

[lord_khaine]

Oda says they're pirates, so they're pirates. Done deal.

And if Oda said that Blackbeard were a hero, would you belive that as well? Deal undone.

Your definition of piracy, not that you actually seem to have given one, is someone who "violently assults" specifically a merchant ship to take their cargo. Like I said, extremely specific. By that definition, there aren't any pirates in One Piece, or most of pirate-based fiction for that matter. Sure, numerous self-proclaimed pirates attack and raid marine bases and ships as well as other pirate ships and their treasure, but that apparently doesn't count. Jack Sparrow? Not a pirate, clearly. He never once violently assults a merchant ship to take their cargo. Sure, he outwits law enforcement, steals a prized navy vessel, lies, cheats, and cons pretty much every other character in the movies, but it's the violence against merchant ships that count.

Sorry, but its the manga thats counts, not the movies.
And i dont care about what Jack does, what counts here is what Luffy does, and im still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is, and actualy give some examples of Luffy doing some robbing.

Regardless, trying to apply the historical definition of a pirate to One Piece is like trying to apply the historical definition of a ninja to Naruto or applying the historical definition of a wizard to Harry Potter or Fairy Tail. Defining a pirate as someone who commits unlawful actions with the aid of a seafaring vessel is a logical conclusion to make on the series. He can't be classified as Rebel because his actions have no political motivation. He, and the rest of the pirates in the series, are purely self-serving.

Ohh, so we can twist the Modern definition of pirate undtil it fits the SH crew, but he cant be a rebel because he is mainly acting in the interest of his crew and friends?
Sorry but that doesnt stop him from being a rebel, since his goal apperently seems to be to declare his independence from the world gouverment.

This is the real life definition. And it loosely covers the straw hat crew (not all that loosely when you think of the cost to the food supplies of all the countries they visit. )

I think that by losely you mean that ½ of it covers the SH, since they do operate from ship

In One Piece isn't piracy defined by the Marines as literally flying a Jolly Roger. You do it and you are a pirate, end of story. That whatever else you do or do not do, you are a pirate that has abandoned the law and should be brought to justice. Its not like the Marines don't love being stupidly specific on these sorts of thing.

Yes, and we can cover this in under the marines on average being a group of incompetent morons.

[DiscipleofBob]

Sorry, but its the manga thats counts, not the movies. And i dont care about what Jack does, what counts here is what Luffy does, and im still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is, and actualy give some examples of Luffy doing some robbing.

I could cite the numerous times Nami's made off with piles of money and treasure, but you're just going to say "That's not Luffy so it doesn't cound." You want a ridiculously specific example, despite the fact that it's not actually relevant to Luffy's pirate status? Fine. Skypeia. Even after befriending the natives and overthrowing their god, they proceed to make off in the night with a huge load of their treasure. Sure, the Skypeians would have outright given it to them along with more treasure, but the only one to ever realize that was Nico Robin.

Ohh, so we can twist the Modern definition of pirate undtil it fits the SH crew, but he cant be a rebel because he is mainly acting in the interest of his crew and friends? Sorry but that doesnt stop him from being a rebel, since his goal apperently seems to be to declare his independence from the world gouverment.

He's not classified as a rebel or revolutionary or anything of the sort because his actions are not politically motivated. He's not fighting for some big cause or even directly trying to bring down the world government, he's just going about his merry way on a PIRATE ship. Even when his actions have major political implications (Alabasta, Enies Lobby, Impel Down, Marineford) his motivations remain the same: to protect his friends. Even burning the flag at Enies Lobby, which the government saw as a declaration of war, was only done so Luffy would demonstrate just how far they would go to rescue Robin. Luffy will certainly fight alongside rebels for his own motives, but he never fights for a political cause, so he's not really defined as a rebel in the context of the series. If you want to use the broad definition of rebel, that is someone who defies law and authority in general, then sure, Luffy and crew are rebels as well as pirates.

Several fans claim that the Straw Hats are not pirates at all due to the fact that they don't really do any stereotypical pirate actions. Some even claim they are more revolutionaries than pirates. The pirates in One Piece are varied, but in real life not all pirates pillaged and raped though arguably most did.

In fact the reasons for becoming a pirate were varied and not all of them did the typical pirate actions:

Some were merely innocent merchant traders reported as pirates for one reason or another. Breaking the law in any way was enough, however from time to time for one reason or another merchants were misreported as pirates. Modern historians have often taken William Kidd as an example of such a case.
Others were seeking freedom or protesting against their government who established hard taxes on merchants or who were unfairly treating the population living within their jurisdiction.
In some cases they were freed slaves who joined pirate crews because life as a pirate was a better life than a life of slavery.
A few were acting as vigilantes (which today is illegal in many countries), in some cases hired privateers (who are often considered legal pirates), while others continued plundering even after privateering was outlawed or got greedy and attacked even their own country's ships.
For many pirates, they were born poor and lived on little income prior to becoming shipmates on board their crews. As poor as most pirates were, pirates were often slightly wealthier than those on dry land and during times of hardship the number of pirates would increase greatly as sailors sought more profitable income.

With that in mind here is a list of "crimes" the Strawhats have committed:

Declaring themselves "pirates": The storyline clearly establishes the grounds for identification as a pirate in One Piece and at the very least simply declaring oneself a pirate is enough to have the Marines arrest you. Though they declared themselves pirates, originally their actual reporting as being "pirates" was merely revenge from Nezumi because Nami beat him up. They had however acted more as vigilantes at the time because the East Blue pirates were allowed to hurt their friends and potential crewmates. Up until this point, by official means they were not classified as pirates.
Burning the flag of the world government: a declaration of war
They have hit/attacked members of the law enforcement: a crime even in the real world. Zoro commented when he raised his swords against the Marines for the very first time after Luffy freed him, once you are declared a criminal there is no going back.
Holding a hostage: Holding the Ryugu Palace guards and, Ministers of the Left and Right, and King Neptune. Also, although it wasn't true, they were still "involved" with the hostage situation with the World Nobles at the Human Auction House.
Pillaging: At the very least the Straw Hats did pillage gold from Skypiea (though were naive to the inhabitants' own regard to gold). Luffy beat Bellamy to get Cricket's stolen gold back. Nami also had previously stolen valuables from other pirates with the aid of the Arlong Pirates when needed, as well as being part of Arlong's crew who was actively pillaging villages around the East Blue. Franky had stolen from others (Usopp was a victim) to get what he wanted prior to being a 'pirate', and even though a pirate couldn't report him, it's still a crime. They also robbed the whole treasure hoard of Thriller Bark, although its inhabitants left it on their ship and died before the crew were back.
Privateering: They have also committed at least one act that would fall into the classification of "Privateering" (Igaram hired the crew to protect Princess Vivi on a price agreed by Nami together with their actions in Arabasta against Crocodile). Initially, outside of the Shichibukai, this is frowned upon and could have gotten the Arabasta royal family in trouble.
Vigilantism: Throughout the East Blue, they resolved one problem after another by acting as vigilantes even where the Marines could not succeed.
Freeing prisoners: Zoro, Robin, Franky, and various members of Impel Down were all freed by a member of the Strawhats.
Destroying Marine ships: Although a lie, Robin was said to have destroyed a number of ships at 8 years old. Since the start of the series, an untold number of lesser Marine ships have been taken down.
Murder and attempted murder: Zoro was known to have killed prior to joining the crew. Officially, Iceberg was apparently a target for murder by them, however Water 7, the place where it occurred, soon learned the truth.
Black market: Franky had at least one dealing with black market materials, the Adam Wood.
Forbidden research: Robin reads Poneglyphs, something that is banned in the One Piece world.
Overthrowing a king: Wapol being kicked out by the Strawhats.
Destroying government property: Enies Lobby, Impel Down and Marineford all have had serious damage dealt to them.
Stealing a ship; On several occasions, such as when Luffy delivered his 3D2Y message, occasionally ships were stolen by the crew albeit it for brief periods of time.

Although they are the least stereotypical of the pirate crews within One Piece, they are still "pirates" under the classifications released by the series itself. Traditionally, a revolutionary seeks to change things for the good of a country, the Strawhats have often made it clear that they have no intentions of getting involved with good causes. They themselves only get involved when a friend of theirs is hurt, and only then because a situation causes them to get involved further than they intended. They themselves do not openly seek to overthrow the World Government or any individual kingdom. Pirates are criminals and while Luffy's criminal actions have aided others, they are still crimes. A Revolutionary may also commit crimes but has a set goal wherein they are purposely bent on overthrowing the government.

[Xondoure]

Let's not forget the vast amount of meat that has been taken! He isn't sharing either. He wants to eat all the meat.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And the bane of all heroes.... property damage!

Seriously how many places have the Strawhats wrecked on their voyage?

[Dusk Eclipse]

How many islands have they visited since the start of the journey?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't know but let's face it, but touching off a Buster Call should probably count for like three islands. Sure it wasn't their fault exactly, but lets face it wouldn't have happened either without the Straw Hats interference.