One Piece -- Discussion

[ThiagoMartell]

The Sanji situation was hilarious.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Tashigi has no luck, the poor girl. And where'd Trafalgar disappear to?

[DiscipleofBob]

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Honestly, I don't see Sanji winning this one.

This feels like one of those battles where the Big Bad beats up on one of the major characters to prove how awesome they are. Sad because that just seems to happen to Sanji more often than the others. Poor guy can't catch a break.

Although interesting connection here:

Sanji's going to save Tashigi, who looks exactly like Zoro's childhood friend, which causes some kind of dramatic tension between Zoro and Tashigi (possibly romantic depending on which fanbase you ask) giving Sanji and Zoro a convoluted sort of almost-love triangle.

[AtlanteanTroll]

When else has Sanji been in that situation? Also, speaking of that sort of thing...

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Caesar and Luffy have an interesting dynamic. I guess Caesar never really flat out beat Luffy and showed he was more powerful, but ... He sort of did by having his poison actually work on him. It's funny Luffy was able to hurt him so bad on that last page.

[Xondoure]

When else has Sanji been in that situation? Also, speaking of that sort of thing...

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Caesar and Luffy have an interesting dynamic. I guess Caesar never really flat out beat Luffy and showed he was more powerful, but ... He sort of did by having his poison actually work on him. It's funny Luffy was able to hurt him so bad on that last page.

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It wasn't poison, it was lack of oxygen. Now that Luffy knows the trick things will be different. Besides, it's not like Luffy hasn't lost then kicked ass before.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I guess Caesar never really flat out beat Luffy and showed he was more powerful, but ...

I suspect it will be quite awhile before Luffy fights someone who's actually a peer in true combat ability. Just it feels a little late in the game to me for him to be threatened by arc/island level baddies anymore. I expect quite a few stacked decks for Luffy's fights, I mean heck last arc gave Hody super-saiyan 'roids AND had a bunch of the fight in the damn ocean just to keep things interesting.

We want someone who can actually take Luffy in a straight fight we need to start looking at folks with a bit more weight behind them. The Shichibukai, the Supernovas, maybe even the Admirals or Yonko.

Though speaking of arcs... do we have enough villains to fill out the formula? Something is up there.

[DiscipleofBob]

When else has Sanji been in that situation? Also, speaking of that sort of thing...

Eneru, Absalom, Kalifa...

Granted the latter two exploited his various psychological weaknesses but it is still a trend.

[lord_khaine]

Eneru, Absalom, Kalifa...

As i recall Eneru beat up Zorro to show how badass he was, and Sanji just flat out refused to fight Kalifa, so i dont think that situation counts.

[Kato]

Hm... Eneru might be a case when he shortly showed up on the Ark(?) but neither Absolom nor Kalifa really suit the problem. I have no idea how powerful this guy is but I feel confident just from my guts that Sanji will protect Tashigi properly.

[DiscipleofBob]

As i recall Eneru beat up Zorro to show how badass he was, and Sanji just flat out refused to fight Kalifa, so i dont think that situation counts.

First Eneru showed up on the boat and fried Usopp and Sanji.

Both Kalifa and Absalom are less perfect examples, because while Sanji tried to bluff and intimidate Kalifa into submission [/giggity] he couldn't bring himself to actually hurt a woman, which caused him to lose that fight so he could later redeem himself fighting Jyabura.

Sanji almost defeated Absalom, but because he was too busy trying to protect Nami, Absalom was able to exploit that and get away with Nami, effectively making it a loss.

[Lord of the Helms]

First Eneru showed up on the boat and fried Usopp and Sanji.

Both Kalifa and Absalom are less perfect examples, because while Sanji tried to bluff and intimidate Kalifa into submission [/giggity] he couldn't bring himself to actually hurt a woman, which caused him to lose that fight so he could later redeem himself fighting Jyabura.

Sanji almost defeated Absalom, but because he was too busy trying to protect Nami, Absalom was able to exploit that and get away with Nami, effectively making it a loss.

Enel is the only one that fits your own description, but he, much like Zombie Oars, beat pretty much the entire Straw Hat crew to show how tough he was, not just Sanji. His fight against Kalifa had nothing to do with losing to show how tough she was and she was nowhere near the Big Bad (in fact, she was ecplicitly the weakest of the CP 9). It was pretty much clear he would have destroyed her were it not for his chivalry. And him vs. Absalom was less a fight and more an extraordinarily one-sided beatdown before Absalom managed to use his power to get away. If anything, it showed that Absalom wasn't anywhere near the strength of the top Straw Hats.

Back to the chapter:

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Laughed like crazy at Sanji saving Tashigi. Still, sad that Tashigi, even after power levelling, only ever faces named opponents that outmatch her by far. Zoro, Robin, Law, now Vergo... would be nice to see her pull some kind of win at some point.

Smoker will have to beat Vergo for betraying the marines, by all logic of justice. So it should be interesting to see how this factors into Sanji vs. Vergo. I do not neccessarily think Vergo has Sanji outmatched.

Luffy going after Ceasar again is fun. Should be interesting to see how their rematch plays out. Clearly Luffy far outmatches him physically, but Ceasar's devil fruit power is extraordinarily powerful nevertheless.

[DiscipleofBob]

Enel is the only one that fits your own description, but he, much like Zombie Oars, beat prett much the entire Straw Hat crew to show how tough he was, not just Sanji. His fight against Kalifa had nothing to do with losing to shw how tough she was and she was nowhere near the Big Bad (in fact, she was ecplicitly the weakest of the CP 9). It was pretty much clear he would have destroyed her were it not for his chivalry. And him vs. Absalom was less a fight and more an extraordinarily one-sided beatdown before Absalom managed to use his power to get away. If anything, it showed that Absalom wasn't anywhere near the strength of the top Straw Hats.

That's a fair counter-argument. It's just seemed like whenever they need one a Worf from the Straw Hats they seem to pick Sanji, and that his win record isn't anywhere close to Luffy and Zoro because of it.

Maybe I just like Sanji too much and want to see him rack up a few more wins.

I still say this coming fight doesn't seem like the type anyone but Luffy or Smoker would win. Vergo seems like too much of a big bad for it to be otherwise. I could be wrong though, and I very much hope I am.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Well, Zolo still has one of the biggest losses. The only other Straw Hat to be decimated by a Shibukai was Luffy, and he was able to avenge himself pretty quickly.

Also. The bounty system is effed. Luffy currently has 400 Million, Kid has 470, Doflaming had 340 and Crocodile had ... 81. Only 81. What.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, Zolo still has one of the biggest losses. The only other Straw Hat to be decimated by a Shibukai was Luffy, and he was able to avenge himself pretty quickly.

Also. The bounty system is effed. Luffy currently has 400 Million, Kid has 470, Doflaming had 340 and Crocodile had ... 81. Only 81. What.

Bounties don't measure power, they measure threat level.

[lord_khaine]

the bounty system isnt a viable indicator of how powerfull a given person is, it only shows either their ability to tick the world gouverment off, or how dangerous they belive you to be.

Luffy's bounty is inflated because he has more or less declared the WG war, while also showing off his HAKI to most of the marine top.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Bounties don't measure power, they measure threat level.

Right, right. But ... How exactly does one who is only deemed worthy of having a 81 million bounty even in consideration for Shibukai?

Original shibukai bounties at time of supposed resignation from piracy.

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Mihawk - ???
Doflamingo - 340,000,000
Moria - 320,000,000
Kuma - 296,000,000
Jibe - 250,000,000 (+400,000,000 upon return to piracy)
Crocodile - 81,000,000
Hancock - 80,000,000

Total: +1,367,000,000

And, for comparison, Supernova Bounties upon introduction as such, and post time skip (if it is known).

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Kidd - 315,000,000 (470,000,000)
Luffy - 300,000,000 (400,000,000)
Hawkins - 249,000,000 (320,000,000)
Drake - 222,000,000 (???)
Law - 200,000,000 (440,000,000)
Apoo - 198,000,000 (350,000,000)
Killer - 162,000,000 (200,000,000)
Bonney - 140,000,000 (???)
Bege - 138,000,000 (???)
Zolo - 120,000,000 (???)
Urouge - 108,000,000 (???)

Total: 2,152,000,000 (+2,402,000,000)

Also, the Straw Hats as of there last known bounty, because why not.

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Luffy - 400,000,000
Zolo - 120,000,000
Nami - 16,000,000
Usopp - 30,000,000
Sanji - 77,000,000
Chopper - 50
Nico Ronbin - 80,000,000
Franky - 44,000,000
Brook - 33,000,000

Total: 800,000,050

[ThiagoMartell]

Dude, Blackbeard became a shichibukai with a bounty of zero.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Right, right. But ... How exactly does one who is only deemed worthy of having a 81 million bounty even in consideration for Shibukai?

Original shibukai bounties at time of supposed resignation from piracy.

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Mihawk - ???
Doflamingo - 340,000,000
Moria - 320,000,000
Kuma - 296,000,000
Jibe - 250,000,000 (+400,000,000 upon return to piracy)
Crocodile - 81,000,000
Hancock - 80,000,000

Total: +1,367,000,000

And, for comparison, Supernova Bounties upon introduction as such, and post time skip (if it is known).

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Kidd - 315,000,000 (470,000,000)
Luffy - 300,000,000 (400,000,000)
Hawkins - 249,000,000 (320,000,000)
Drake - 222,000,000 (???)
Law - 200,000,000 (440,000,000)
Apoo - 198,000,000 (350,000,000)
Killer - 162,000,000 (200,000,000)
Bonney - 140,000,000 (???)
Bege - 138,000,000 (???)
Zolo - 120,000,000 (???)
Urouge - 108,000,000 (???)

Total: 2,152,000,000 (+2,402,000,000)

Also, the Straw Hats as of there last known bounty, because why not.

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Luffy - 400,000,000
Zolo - 120,000,000
Nami - 16,000,000
Usopp - 30,000,000
Sanji - 77,000,000
Chopper - 50
Nico Ronbin - 80,000,000
Franky - 44,000,000
Brook - 33,000,000

Total: 800,000,050

Ok... what the hell did Kid do to have the highest bounty of the Supernovas? I mean Luffy declared war on the world government, busted out of Impel Down along with several of the most dangerous inmates there (including two former Shichibukai and the second in command of the rebel army), declared war Again on the Marine and is the son of the Revolutionary leader.

Dude, Blackbeard became a shichibukai with a bounty of zero.

IIRC he became a Shichibukai because he was the one that gave Ace to the Marines and he had a bounty of Zero due not being known to the marines at the time.

[ThiagoMartell]

Ok... what the hell did Kid do to have the highest bounty of the Supernovas? I mean Luffy declared war on the world government, busted out of Impel Down along with several of the most dangerous inmates there (including two former Shichibukai and the second in command of the rebel army), declared war Again on the Marine and is the son of the Revolutionary leader.

Kidd killed a lot of people. They even say so when they talk about them - Luffy and Kidd both create a major ruckus, but Kidd leaves death on his trail.

IIRC he became a Shichibukai because he was the one that gave Ace to the Marines and he had a bounty of Zero due not being known to the marines at the time.

Yes, another thing pointing to bounty not being equal to power. People with high bounties are dangerous, that's a fact. People with low bounties are not necessarily less dangerous, they could simply be new (like Blackbeard) or more cautious (like Crocodile).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Kidd killed a lot of people. They even say so when they talk about them - Luffy and Kidd both create a major ruckus, but Kidd leaves death on his trail.

I didn't remember that Kidd killed so many people. But I am sure the Strawhat have killed marines during all the bouts with them (I am sure that during the Buster Call they killed some of them)

Yes, another thing pointing to bounty not being equal to power. People with high bounties are dangerous, that's a fact. People with low bounties are not necessarily less dangerous, they could simply be new (like Blackbeard) or more cautious (like Crocodile).

I am sure that NOT getting a bounty was part of Blackbeard's plans since the start. And frankly I think Crocodile has been one of the most dangerous foe that the Strawhats have fought (not counting the World Government/Marines).

[ThiagoMartell]

I didn't remember that Kidd killed so many people. But I am sure the Strawhat have killed marines during all the bouts with them (I am sure that during the Buster Call they killed some of them)

I'm not so sure. The only people that are officially mentioned as killed by the Strawhats are a pair of numbered agents that Zoro killed offscreen before the story started. I don't think it matters, though - marine are soldiers, so them dying is expected. Kidd killed civilians anf stuff.

I am sure that NOT getting a bounty was part of Blackbeard's plans since the start. And frankly I think Crocodile has been one of the most dangerous foe that the Strawhats have fought (not counting the World Government/Marines).

Exactly. But he did very few against the World Government. In fact, all Crocodile did against the government was only so he could become a Shichibukai and put his plain in motion.

[9mm]

Bounties have always meant one thing; how much a threat the World Government thinks you are to THE WORLD GOVERNMENT. Robin wasn't a physical threat at all, yet at age 5 had a bounty in the tens of thousands because she could read polyglyphs (and potentially figure out the origins of the WG). While physical power can matter in a bounties amount, its what you do with it nets you one. Luffy could have had a bounty of 0 up until either letting Robin join or escaping the buster call except for the simple fact he called himself a pirate, meaning when he started taking down regional powerhouses the navy had to respond.

[ThiagoMartell]

Bounties have always meant one thing; how much a threat the World Government thinks you are to THE WORLD GOVERNMENT.

Amen.

Robin wasn't a physical threat at all, yet at age 5 had a bounty in the tens of thousands because she could read polyglyphs (and potentially figure out the origins of the WG). While physical power can matter in a bounties amount, its what you do with it nets you one. Luffy could have had a bounty of 0 up until either letting Robin join or escaping the buster call except for the simple fact he called himself a pirate, meaning when he started taking down regional powerhouses the navy had to respond.

Exactly.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I didn't remember that Kidd killed so many people. But I am sure the Strawhat have killed marines during all the bouts with them (I am sure that during the Buster Call they killed some of them)

Dying in One Piece is like romance. It happens sure, just off screen where we the reader never see it. Or in flashbacks.

[ThiagoMartell]

Dying in One Piece is like romance. It happens sure, just off screen where we the reader never see it.

Agreed, Ace seems to be the only exception.
Even Pell somehow survived what would have been the most badass death in the manga.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Dying in One Piece is like romance. It happens sure, just off screen where we the reader never see it. Or in flashbacks.

Ah-ah-ah. It also happens in flashbacks. And that was your white text. Dammit.

[turbo164]

Agreed, Ace seems to be the only exception.
Even Pell somehow survived what would have been the most badass death in the manga.

Yeah it's not like they'd kill off Whitebeard or anything. He seems like the kinda guy who would die standing up, but I doubt we'll ever get to see that.

[DiscipleofBob]

This is Timmy. Timmy used to be a regular boy with a regular family. But then Timmy's brother became an anime protagonist and pre-emptively killed his own parents in a dramatic flashback. Timmy barely survived by supposedly being killed off-screen. Now Timmy is in foster care, moving from home to home until the writers decide whether or not Timmy should stay dead, or come back as a tragic nemesis to Timmy's brother. The chances of Timmy leading a normal life are less than one in six.

This year alone, flashbacks killed over a thousand supporting characters between two years and two decades ago, pre-emptively snuffing out many lives just so a few protagonists can feel special.

Does losing a loved one really make you feel special? No. It doesn't.

Friends don't let friends have flashbacks. Especially when said friends could have you killed five years ago via those flashbacks.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah it's not like they'd kill off Whitebeard or anything. He seems like the kinda guy who would die standing up, but I doubt we'll ever get to see that.

Whitebeard didn't die he just became too badass for the world to contain and ascended to the over-plane of supreme awesome that us mortals cannot even properly comprehend.

[ThiagoMartell]

Whitebeard didn't die he just became too badass for the world to contain and ascended to the over-plane of supreme awesome that us mortals cannot even properly comprehend.

Exactly. What is dead awesome may never die.