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Thread: One Piece -- Discussion
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2012-10-19, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
This is definitely one of the MOST convoluted arcs yet! The moment that you get a handle on what's happening in one chapter, something entirely new crops up two or three chapters down the line. This is not to say that it is bad since this marks the entrance into the New World, but merely frustrating.
Wizard's First Rule: People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or they are afraid it is true.
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2012-10-19, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-19, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Yes, but I'll refrain from discussing this since I despise veiled insults.
Given that this is anime where the logic often follows its own rules... if Enel never trained his basic non-electric physical combat abilities then his pure physical punches may well be less effective. At least compared to a superheated weapon from a guy that like temperatures as hot as the sun. Ergo even with Haki he's not going to win a fist fight. I'm a latecomer to One Piece so I can't answer in detail (because I haven't read that arc) but it would make a good deal of sense.
As for punching with Haki, do remember that using armament Haki argument the destructive power of the weapon, like with that girls arrows on the amazon island, so if he were dodging with Mantra, while beating Luffy up with armament empowered fists, then he would most likely have won.
Not like Luffy's toughness comes entirely from being rubber. I suspect we can probably put together that even Luffy's DF powers are not complete protection from blunt attacks. Not Logia style anways.
Also, i cant see wht Logia style blunt attack should be any better?thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-10-19, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-19, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)
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2012-10-20, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
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2012-10-20, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
That's normal actually, remember lightning's visible discharge comes from plasma. What it would lack is comparable raw energy/heat. (And potentially amps)
As for punching with Haki, do remember that using armament Haki argument the destructive power of the weapon, like with that girls arrows on the amazon island, so if he were dodging with Mantra, while beating Luffy up with armament empowered fists, then he would most likely have won.
4x2<10
Now those are just arbitrary numbers but demonstrate the concept I'm talking about how having armament would not nessecarily equal victory. I think Oda would have given some inclination were this actually the case for Enel, so Enel probably lacked any trained armament Haki.
That Luffy is inherently super tough is something we see each time he comes across something that isnt a purely blunt attack, though that protection does seem to be pretty absolute, from the fight in thriller part.
Also, i cant see wht Logia style blunt attack should be any better?
When in contrast so far Logia unless you either nullify their power or have a particular advantage, otherwise you do zero damage end of story.
Not off my head but its the between Marineford and the Timeskip, possibly the last chapter before the timeskip, that area. Rayleigh explains to Luffy when their on that island.
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2012-10-20, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Strange, I was sure I had posted an answer to this before, but it's not there. Anyways.
A bit of info since you said you hadn't read that particular arc: Enel did not, in fact, rely only on his Logia abilities in combat. He was a well-trained and agile physical combatant with high-level dodging thanks to Mantra aka Observation haki mastery. The Wiki gives a pretty decent overview:
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Enel#...ies_and_Powers
If he hadn't been good at physical combat, his fight with Luffy would have been over in seconds. His Devil Fruit was effectively neutralized both offensively and defensively by Luffy's and their fight was completely physical, yet he was still so fast, strong and experienced with observation haki that he could:
- consistently dodge Luffy's attacks
- catch Luffy's arms during his Gatling attack and throw him all over the place
- hit him in the throat with his staff, pinning him to the wall
It was specifically after the last attack that he realized he could not hurt Luffy with blunt attacks. If he'd had armament haki, he could have just beat him up with his staff or simply his fists, both of which he was shown to be capable with. Instead, he went to the trouble of reforming his staff into a trident to have a pointy weapon that could hurt him.
On the current arc: Definitely convoluted, yes, but that's how I like One Piece. And frankly, it's great to see the crew and assorted characters actually going toe-to-toe with real, high-level New World enemies. Can't wait to see how the fights will go.
SpoilerSmoker kicking Vergo's ass so far is pretty sweet. Not sure if Vergo will make a comeback that will force Law to pitch in and show himself on the winning side for once, or if Doflamingo's reinforcements will enter that particular fight.Last edited by Lord of the Helms; 2012-10-21 at 08:03 AM.
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Spoiler
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2012-10-20, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Actually the sun isn't that hot by degrees. It's the fact that there's so much of it that makes it the ball of destruction it is.
hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)
That's normal actually, remember lightning's visible discharge comes from plasma. What it would lack is comparable raw energy/heat. (And potentially amps)
Now those are just arbitrary numbers but demonstrate the concept I'm talking about how having armament would not nessecarily equal victory. I think Oda would have given some inclination were this actually the case for Enel, so Enel probably lacked any trained armament Haki.
I think (though can't call for sure I'd need to look at a lot more fights) that while its difficult you can still overcome Luffy's rubberyness with massive force, its elastic but only to a finite amount. Off the top of my head Shiki who wipes the Straw Hats out by crushing them his giant earth lion thing. Normal person can't of course but even but Luffy basically gets some good level of damage reduction, do enough damage and you still hurt him.
I dont considder the movies cannon, but since we didnt see the Shiki fight where luffy lost, then it just might be that he defeated luffy by choking him.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-10-21, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
I'm not sure you're following that heat and temperature are separate properties...
LotH has allready covered some information about Enels ability, so i would just point out that when Enel is able to dodge most of what Luffy throws at him, then if his basic punches had been able to hurt Luffy then it would only have been a matter of time before he wore Luffy down.
I'm sure Enel would kick my arse, and probably anyone in the real world, but One Piece evidently starts with Luffy having a punch comparable to gun shot or whatever. Its a whole different ballgame
Again, considering the absolutely brutal beating he ignored in thriller park, then we gotta considder his rubber defence absolute.
I dont considder the movies cannon, but since we didnt see the Shiki fight where luffy lost, then it just might be that he defeated luffy by choking him.
Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-10-21 at 01:34 PM.
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2012-10-21, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
He didn't ignore it. Kuma transferred it over to Zoro.
He got out of Luffy's range because Luffy could actually hit him, something he wasn't used to.
And Rob Lucci beat Luffy until he was spewing blood, and was having Luffy react with pain before that to normal punches. Luffy doesn't do that when he say gets shot.
Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.
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2012-10-21, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
There's no actual support for a Haki connection though. Its kinda like Zoro being first mate, not an unreasonable idea but lacking place where it could have been said and very much wasn't. The explanation of Haki very much does not even invoke it despite being the time to.
In fact Luffy isn't told Sentomaru uses Haki note immediately something weird about his attacks, and explicitly makes the realization when Armament is explained. Not to Lucci. I've yet to review all pertinent dialogue but Luffy complains loudly from even a finger flick using Haki. He's aware of a difference in nature not merely effect.
And judging by the clips I found Lucci was getting a reaction from normal punches. Notably not his rather hammy Haki reaction, but not his glee at out bullets can't harm him either.
So I stand by so far Luffy being not completely immune to blunt damage. Highly resistant for sure, might even be something like 90% or something, but not 100% doesn't care about it because he's Plastic Man either.
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2012-10-23, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Errr... no. No he didn't. Please, for the sake of knowing what you're talking about, watch/read the saga. Enel tried to attack Luffy with lightning at the beginning of their fight, and after failing 3 times, and realizing that Luffy was immune to his attacks, he was completely flabbergasted. Luffy managed to land one good hit (actually kick) that shocked Enel even further because he could actually touch him. Then they had a fistfight, during which Enel was about on a par with Luffy (he had the advantage of Mantra dodging, which Luffy had to find ways to overcome; Luffy had the advantage of blunt attack immunity, which Enel had to find a way to overcome). As for offensive combat ability and strength, he was not lacking:
Would he have definitely won with armement haki? Can't say for sure, but it would have given him an edge. And he definitely wouldn't have had to search for ways to hurt Luffy the way he did. Which was my point to begin with: Enel, while clearly a master of observation haki, obviously did not have any skill in armament haki at all, so while Rayleigh says that the two go together, it's entirely possible for someone to master one type of Haki without having any proficiency at all in the other.Last edited by Lord of the Helms; 2012-10-23 at 04:27 PM.
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Spoiler
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2012-10-23, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
The fact that the Skypeians called the ability Mantra suggest that the entire culture doesn't know a thing about Haki and only developed Observation Haki.
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2012-10-23, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-23, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
I'm not sure you're following that heat and temperature are separate properties...
And Rob Lucci beat Luffy until he was spewing blood, and was having Luffy react with pain before that to normal punches. Luffy doesn't do that when he say gets shot.
Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.
He didn't ignore it. Kuma transferred it over to Zoro.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.htmlthnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-10-23, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Simple, I thought you were talking about this page:
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2592-1...apter-485.html
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2012-10-24, 02:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Simple, I thought you were talking about this page:
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2592-1...apter-485.htmlthnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-10-24, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
There's new chapter, don't cha know?
SpoilerHaki users versus Logia. This'll be good. Sanji's antics seemed to be mild compared to what they were before, perhaps that's part of his character development?
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2012-10-24, 05:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Is there proof for that or merely your interpretation?
New chapter.
Spoiler
I'm amazed how much happened. Not really much stuff that progressed the story but lots of action and some funny stuff.
I'm looking forward to Zoro fighting alongside Tashigi, that's gonna be fun. And Sanji and the Marines were nice.
Also, on some level I can't stop liking Monet. I know she has no good intentions but she seems really attached to the kids... in a very weird way but attached nonetheless.
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2012-10-24, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
SpoilerIt's a shame. If it weren't for the fact that Monet is a woman, Sanji could curb-stomp her with Diable Jambe.
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2012-10-24, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-24, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
My question exactly. If that was specified anywhere its not been reported that I can find. And the fight footage I watched shows Luffy reacting to normal punches not just Rokushiki special attacks. Might be just the anime, but One Piece seems to like to show off whenever something doesn't work period, like everytime someone shoots a Logia user and they look annoyed or when Luffy displays his immunity to bullets way back.
Given he's a samurai I will expect that he wouldn't hit a girl until proven otherwise.
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2012-10-24, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
SpoilerI'm confused. Did Robin hit a snow construct or the snow-woman herself? I think it's the first option, but if it's the second, then it must be a display of haki.
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2012-10-24, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-24, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Spoiler
I think you thought I was talking about Nami, but I'm talking about Robin. She hit the Snow-woman square in the face with a palm strike and it worked. Now, I'm not sure if giant snow-woman was actually snow-woman or a construct.
Or palm is somehow an element.Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-10-24 at 10:21 AM.
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2012-10-24, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
I misread that yes.
My guess is just enough area covered to disrupt things momentarily without any real damage done.
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2012-10-24, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
Well, you can HIT Logia without Haki, they just turn into their element. In most cases, like Crocodile or Ace, this leads to nothing. When you're element is thick and clumped together like, say, snow, and you're in the middle of reforming your body into a gigantic horrific monster, one would imagine a strong hit would, at the very least, poof your body back to snow, and thus shatter you. Only for you to reform since you're a Logia and thus immensly powerful.
Also, I like the implication that Zoro doesn't have Haki so he can't handle her yet, but Tashigi does. I'm hoping we finally get some Tashigi action.
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2012-10-24, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
That's what I gathered... thing seemed way too livelike not to be her.
Also, I like the implication that Zoro doesn't have Haki so he can't handle her yet, but Tashigi does. I'm hoping we finally get some Tashigi action.
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2012-10-24, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: One Piece -- Discussion
My guess is one of two things.
1: Zoro hasn't been trained in Haki yet, and thus can't really use it to his utmost yet
2: He doesn't WANT to use Haki, he just wants to be able to cut a Logia with his own might, like how, way back when, he sliced up Mr 1