One Piece -- Discussion

[LordRahl6]

This is definitely one of the MOST convoluted arcs yet! The moment that you get a handle on what's happening in one chapter, something entirely new crops up two or three chapters down the line. This is not to say that it is bad since this marks the entrance into the New World, but merely frustrating.

[DiscipleofBob]

This is definitely one of the MOST convoluted arcs yet! The moment that you get a handle on what's happening in one chapter, something entirely new crops up two or three chapters down the line. This is not to say that it is bad since this marks the entrance into the New World, but merely frustrating.

It is kind of a seven-way chessboard, isn't it.

[lord_khaine]

Yes, but I'll refrain from discussing this since I despise veiled insults.

Suit yourself, when you start asking questions that makes it look like you missed an essential chapter or 2, then its hard not to ask.

Given that this is anime where the logic often follows its own rules... if Enel never trained his basic non-electric physical combat abilities then his pure physical punches may well be less effective. At least compared to a superheated weapon from a guy that like temperatures as hot as the sun. Ergo even with Haki he's not going to win a fist fight. I'm a latecomer to One Piece so I can't answer in detail (because I haven't read that arc) but it would make a good deal of sense.

To start with the temperature close to the sun thingy clearly has to be wrong, or everything on the ship, including the ship itself, would have spontaneusly combustet.
As for punching with Haki, do remember that using armament Haki argument the destructive power of the weapon, like with that girls arrows on the amazon island, so if he were dodging with Mantra, while beating Luffy up with armament empowered fists, then he would most likely have won.

Not like Luffy's toughness comes entirely from being rubber. I suspect we can probably put together that even Luffy's DF powers are not complete protection from blunt attacks. Not Logia style anways.

That Luffy is inherently super tough is something we see each time he comes across something that isnt a purely blunt attack, though that protection does seem to be pretty absolute, from the fight in thriller part.
Also, i cant see wht Logia style blunt attack should be any better?

[Xondoure]

Suit yourself, when you start asking questions that makes it look like you missed an essential chapter or 2, then its hard not to ask.



To start with the temperature close to the sun thingy clearly has to be wrong, or everything on the ship, including the ship itself, would have spontaneusly combustet.
As for punching with Haki, do remember that using armament Haki argument the destructive power of the weapon, like with that girls arrows on the amazon island, so if he were dodging with Mantra, while beating Luffy up with armament empowered fists, then he would most likely have won.



That Luffy is inherently super tough is something we see each time he comes across something that isnt a purely blunt attack, though that protection does seem to be pretty absolute, from the fight in thriller part.
Also, i cant see wht Logia style blunt attack should be any better?

Actually the sun isn't that hot by degrees. It's the fact that there's so much of it that makes it the ball of destruction it is.

[Susano-wo]

hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)

[ThiagoMartell]

hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)

Armament Haki would allow Enel to hit Luffy with a punch and he would hit a bit harder.
If that would work better than a superheated trident is anyone's guess. I think it wouldn't, since Enel was not established as being superhumanly strong in the first place.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To start with the temperature close to the sun thingy clearly has to be wrong, or everything on the ship, including the ship itself, would have spontaneusly combustet.

That's normal actually, remember lightning's visible discharge comes from plasma. What it would lack is comparable raw energy/heat. (And potentially amps)

As for punching with Haki, do remember that using armament Haki argument the destructive power of the weapon, like with that girls arrows on the amazon island, so if he were dodging with Mantra, while beating Luffy up with armament empowered fists, then he would most likely have won.

I generally conceptualize most power-up abilities like this as being akin to a multiplier. So let's say Enel had a Haki of x2 and because he relied on his Logia powers only had a base power of 4. While Luffy who's trained all his life, has a base power of 10:

4x2<10

Now those are just arbitrary numbers but demonstrate the concept I'm talking about how having armament would not nessecarily equal victory. I think Oda would have given some inclination were this actually the case for Enel, so Enel probably lacked any trained armament Haki.

That Luffy is inherently super tough is something we see each time he comes across something that isnt a purely blunt attack, though that protection does seem to be pretty absolute, from the fight in thriller part.
Also, i cant see wht Logia style blunt attack should be any better?

I think (though can't call for sure I'd need to look at a lot more fights) that while its difficult you can still overcome Luffy's rubberyness with massive force, its elastic but only to a finite amount. Off the top of my head Shiki who wipes the Straw Hats out by crushing them his giant earth lion thing. Normal person can't of course but even but Luffy basically gets some good level of damage reduction, do enough damage and you still hurt him.

When in contrast so far Logia unless you either nullify their power or have a particular advantage, otherwise you do zero damage end of story.

hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)

Not off my head but its the between Marineford and the Timeskip, possibly the last chapter before the timeskip, that area. Rayleigh explains to Luffy when their on that island.

[Lord of the Helms]

Strange, I was sure I had posted an answer to this before, but it's not there. Anyways.

Weren't his troubles because lightning wouldn't work on rubber, its rather doubtful to me that haki would help that anyways.

Given that this is anime where the logic often follows its own rules... if Enel never trained his basic non-electric physical combat abilities then his pure physical punches may well be less effective. At least compared to a superheated weapon from a guy that like temperatures as hot as the sun. Ergo even with Haki he's not going to win a fist fight. I'm a latecomer to One Piece so I can't answer in detail (because I haven't read that arc) but it would make a good deal of sense.

A bit of info since you said you hadn't read that particular arc: Enel did not, in fact, rely only on his Logia abilities in combat. He was a well-trained and agile physical combatant with high-level dodging thanks to Mantra aka Observation haki mastery. The Wiki gives a pretty decent overview:
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Enel#...ies_and_Powers

If he hadn't been good at physical combat, his fight with Luffy would have been over in seconds. His Devil Fruit was effectively neutralized both offensively and defensively by Luffy's and their fight was completely physical, yet he was still so fast, strong and experienced with observation haki that he could:
- consistently dodge Luffy's attacks
- catch Luffy's arms during his Gatling attack and throw him all over the place
- hit him in the throat with his staff, pinning him to the wall

It was specifically after the last attack that he realized he could not hurt Luffy with blunt attacks. If he'd had armament haki, he could have just beat him up with his staff or simply his fists, both of which he was shown to be capable with. Instead, he went to the trouble of reforming his staff into a trident to have a pointy weapon that could hurt him.


On the current arc: Definitely convoluted, yes, but that's how I like One Piece. And frankly, it's great to see the crew and assorted characters actually going toe-to-toe with real, high-level New World enemies. Can't wait to see how the fights will go.

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Smoker kicking Vergo's ass so far is pretty sweet. Not sure if Vergo will make a comeback that will force Law to pitch in and show himself on the winning side for once, or if Doflamingo's reinforcements will enter that particular fight.

[lord_khaine]

Actually the sun isn't that hot by degrees. It's the fact that there's so much of it that makes it the ball of destruction it is.

Hmm, while that is true, if Enel's weapon had consistently stayed at a temperature of around 10.000 kelvin (the temperature i could find for plasma), then the heat it radiates would still be enought to destroy the ship and everything close by in minuttes, and just from being close to it both Enel and Luffy should have died.

hmm, anyone know what chapter number they explain haki in? because if it allows you to bypass the DR () of Logia users specifically, it wouldn't have any effect (aside from making Enel hit harder in general) on Luffies Paramecia rubber body. (though it would bypass it if it simply allows you to bypass any special protections the user had)

We have directly seen in the manga that users of Haki is able to penetrate Luffy's paramecia defence.

That's normal actually, remember lightning's visible discharge comes from plasma. What it would lack is comparable raw energy/heat. (And potentially amps)

Yeah, but its a very small area, and the heat of the plasma isnt substained.

Now those are just arbitrary numbers but demonstrate the concept I'm talking about how having armament would not nessecarily equal victory. I think Oda would have given some inclination were this actually the case for Enel, so Enel probably lacked any trained armament Haki.

LotH has allready covered some information about Enels ability, so i would just point out that when Enel is able to dodge most of what Luffy throws at him, then if his basic punches had been able to hurt Luffy then it would only have been a matter of time before he wore Luffy down.

I think (though can't call for sure I'd need to look at a lot more fights) that while its difficult you can still overcome Luffy's rubberyness with massive force, its elastic but only to a finite amount. Off the top of my head Shiki who wipes the Straw Hats out by crushing them his giant earth lion thing. Normal person can't of course but even but Luffy basically gets some good level of damage reduction, do enough damage and you still hurt him.

Again, considering the absolutely brutal beating he ignored in thriller park, then we gotta considder his rubber defence absolute.
I dont considder the movies cannon, but since we didnt see the Shiki fight where luffy lost, then it just might be that he defeated luffy by choking him.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, but its a very small area, and the heat of the plasma isnt substained.

I'm not sure you're following that heat and temperature are separate properties...

LotH has allready covered some information about Enels ability, so i would just point out that when Enel is able to dodge most of what Luffy throws at him, then if his basic punches had been able to hurt Luffy then it would only have been a matter of time before he wore Luffy down.

I've read the wiki entry before this and I stand by my thought that armament probably would not have equaled victory. Enel's got defense but he seems to lack offense outside his immense lightning ability. He evidently chose to even just try and burn Luffy with high amounts of lightning over keeping things a fist fight.

I'm sure Enel would kick my arse, and probably anyone in the real world, but One Piece evidently starts with Luffy having a punch comparable to gun shot or whatever. Its a whole different ballgame

Again, considering the absolutely brutal beating he ignored in thriller park, then we gotta considder his rubber defence absolute.
I dont considder the movies cannon, but since we didnt see the Shiki fight where luffy lost, then it just might be that he defeated luffy by choking him.

And Rob Lucci beat Luffy until he was spewing blood, and was having Luffy react with pain before that to normal punches. Luffy doesn't do that when he say gets shot.

Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.

[Suichimo]

Again, considering the absolutely brutal beating he ignored in thriller park, then we gotta considder his rubber defence absolute.

He didn't ignore it. Kuma transferred it over to Zoro.

I've read the wiki entry before this and I stand by my thought that armament probably would not have equaled victory. Enel's got defense but he seems to lack offense outside his immense lightning ability. He evidently chose to even just try and burn Luffy with high amounts of lightning over keeping things a fist fight.

I'm sure Enel would kick my arse, and probably anyone in the real world, but One Piece evidently starts with Luffy having a punch comparable to gun shot or whatever. Its a whole different ballgame

He got out of Luffy's range because Luffy could actually hit him, something he wasn't used to.

And Rob Lucci beat Luffy until he was spewing blood, and was having Luffy react with pain before that to normal punches. Luffy doesn't do that when he say gets shot.

Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.

Apparently, Tekkai is a lot like Armament Haki which would completely explain why Luffy was taking damage during that fight, even outside of Rokougan. Rokushiki itself seems like rudimentary Haki.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Apparently, Tekkai is a lot like Armament Haki which would completely explain why Luffy was taking damage during that fight, even outside of Rokougan. Rokushiki itself seems like rudimentary Haki.

There's no actual support for a Haki connection though. Its kinda like Zoro being first mate, not an unreasonable idea but lacking place where it could have been said and very much wasn't. The explanation of Haki very much does not even invoke it despite being the time to.

In fact Luffy isn't told Sentomaru uses Haki note immediately something weird about his attacks, and explicitly makes the realization when Armament is explained. Not to Lucci. I've yet to review all pertinent dialogue but Luffy complains loudly from even a finger flick using Haki. He's aware of a difference in nature not merely effect.

And judging by the clips I found Lucci was getting a reaction from normal punches. Notably not his rather hammy Haki reaction, but not his glee at out bullets can't harm him either.

So I stand by so far Luffy being not completely immune to blunt damage. Highly resistant for sure, might even be something like 90% or something, but not 100% doesn't care about it because he's Plastic Man either.

[Lord of the Helms]

I've read the wiki entry before this and I stand by my thought that armament probably would not have equaled victory. Enel's got defense but he seems to lack offense outside his immense lightning ability. He evidently chose to even just try and burn Luffy with high amounts of lightning over keeping things a fist fight.

Errr... no. No he didn't. Please, for the sake of knowing what you're talking about, watch/read the saga. Enel tried to attack Luffy with lightning at the beginning of their fight, and after failing 3 times, and realizing that Luffy was immune to his attacks, he was completely flabbergasted. Luffy managed to land one good hit (actually kick) that shocked Enel even further because he could actually touch him. Then they had a fistfight, during which Enel was about on a par with Luffy (he had the advantage of Mantra dodging, which Luffy had to find ways to overcome; Luffy had the advantage of blunt attack immunity, which Enel had to find a way to overcome). As for offensive combat ability and strength, he was not lacking:

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See this example

Would he have definitely won with armement haki? Can't say for sure, but it would have given him an edge. And he definitely wouldn't have had to search for ways to hurt Luffy the way he did. Which was my point to begin with: Enel, while clearly a master of observation haki, obviously did not have any skill in armament haki at all, so while Rayleigh says that the two go together, it's entirely possible for someone to master one type of Haki without having any proficiency at all in the other.

[DiscipleofBob]

The fact that the Skypeians called the ability Mantra suggest that the entire culture doesn't know a thing about Haki and only developed Observation Haki.

[ThiagoMartell]

The fact that the Skypeians called the ability Mantra suggest that the entire culture doesn't know a thing about Haki and only developed Observation Haki.

I wouldn't even say it suggests it, I'm 100% sure it's that.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not sure you're following that heat and temperature are separate properties...

For all sense and purpose of this discussion, it is the same...

And Rob Lucci beat Luffy until he was spewing blood, and was having Luffy react with pain before that to normal punches. Luffy doesn't do that when he say gets shot.

Luffy is rubber but he's elastic, not fluid.

Thats because Rob Lucci's mastery of Rokushiki allowed him to swich his damage type away from pure blunt trauma.

He didn't ignore it. Kuma transferred it over to Zoro.

Then please explain these 2 pages....
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.html

[Suichimo]

Then please explain these 2 pages....
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2589-...apter-482.html

Simple, I thought you were talking about this page:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2592-1...apter-485.html

[lord_khaine]

Simple, I thought you were talking about this page:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2592-1...apter-485.html

And how you can confuse those 2 things in a discussion about Luffy's rubber defence leaves me amazed

[darksolitaire]

There's new chapter, don't cha know?

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Haki users versus Logia. This'll be good. Sanji's antics seemed to be mild compared to what they were before, perhaps that's part of his character development?

[Kato]

Thats because Rob Lucci's mastery of Rokushiki allowed him to swich his damage type away from pure blunt trauma.

Is there proof for that or merely your interpretation?


New chapter.

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I'm amazed how much happened. Not really much stuff that progressed the story but lots of action and some funny stuff.
I'm looking forward to Zoro fighting alongside Tashigi, that's gonna be fun. And Sanji and the Marines were nice.
Also, on some level I can't stop liking Monet. I know she has no good intentions but she seems really attached to the kids... in a very weird way but attached nonetheless.

[DiscipleofBob]

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It's a shame. If it weren't for the fact that Monet is a woman, Sanji could curb-stomp her with Diable Jambe.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Where is Kinemon? I have the feeling that his Kitsune-Bi style would be the perfect counter for Monnet.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Is there proof for that or merely your interpretation?

My question exactly. If that was specified anywhere its not been reported that I can find. And the fight footage I watched shows Luffy reacting to normal punches not just Rokushiki special attacks. Might be just the anime, but One Piece seems to like to show off whenever something doesn't work period, like everytime someone shoots a Logia user and they look annoyed or when Luffy displays his immunity to bullets way back.

Where is Kinemon? I have the feeling that his Kitsune-Bi style would be the perfect counter for Monnet.

Given he's a samurai I will expect that he wouldn't hit a girl until proven otherwise.

[ThiagoMartell]

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I'm confused. Did Robin hit a snow construct or the snow-woman herself? I think it's the first option, but if it's the second, then it must be a display of haki.

[Soras Teva Gee]

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I'm confused. Did Robin hit a snow construct or the snow-woman herself? I think it's the first option, but if it's the second, then it must be a display of haki.

Elemental countering.

[ThiagoMartell]

Elemental countering.

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I think you thought I was talking about Nami, but I'm talking about Robin. She hit the Snow-woman square in the face with a palm strike and it worked. Now, I'm not sure if giant snow-woman was actually snow-woman or a construct.
Or palm is somehow an element.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I misread that yes.

My guess is just enough area covered to disrupt things momentarily without any real damage done.

[LaZodiac]

Well, you can HIT Logia without Haki, they just turn into their element. In most cases, like Crocodile or Ace, this leads to nothing. When you're element is thick and clumped together like, say, snow, and you're in the middle of reforming your body into a gigantic horrific monster, one would imagine a strong hit would, at the very least, poof your body back to snow, and thus shatter you. Only for you to reform since you're a Logia and thus immensly powerful.

Also, I like the implication that Zoro doesn't have Haki so he can't handle her yet, but Tashigi does. I'm hoping we finally get some Tashigi action.

[Kato]

Well, you can HIT Logia without Haki, they just turn into their element. In most cases, like Crocodile or Ace, this leads to nothing. When you're element is thick and clumped together like, say, snow, and you're in the middle of reforming your body into a gigantic horrific monster, one would imagine a strong hit would, at the very least, poof your body back to snow, and thus shatter you. Only for you to reform since you're a Logia and thus immensly powerful.

That's what I gathered... thing seemed way too livelike not to be her.

Also, I like the implication that Zoro doesn't have Haki so he can't handle her yet, but Tashigi does. I'm hoping we finally get some Tashigi action.

I've been wondering what Zoro's problem might be... it would be really weird if he couldn't use haki... maybe he can't infuse his weapon with it? But that would be quite a problem for him, too.

[LaZodiac]

My guess is one of two things.

1: Zoro hasn't been trained in Haki yet, and thus can't really use it to his utmost yet

2: He doesn't WANT to use Haki, he just wants to be able to cut a Logia with his own might, like how, way back when, he sliced up Mr 1