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Thread: The reality of the game
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2010-09-03, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
That's been the argument for hp since the first versions of the game, and most people acknowledge that it holds up pretty well for "two guys hacking on each other with swords." It's situations outside of that where it starts to get a bit fuzzy.
More. The answer is always more.
Not only consistency, but "what is the reality I want to model?" The "reality" of Rambo is different from the "reality" of Nightmare on Elm Street, and both are different from the "reality" of Full Metal Jacket.
It is highly, highly unlikely that anyone really wants to model the real world. In the real world, adventurers would have a life span measured in weeks, if not days.
No, thanks. I went through my simulationist phase. I want the 'reality' of Lord of the Rings - which is far removed from actual reality. If LotR was realistic, the Frodo would have died of starvation or been eaten. For games, I want a "reality" that allows a three-and-a-half foot n00b to take on the most potent avatar of evil in the universe.
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2010-09-03, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Too tired FROM evading. Running out of energy to block and dodge blows. So, then, you start getting actual wounds (running low on HP!), and then eventually die.
Getting tired might also involve minor wounds and pulled muscles and bruises and such, so that it doesn't go away overnight.
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2010-09-03, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2010-09-03, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Or you lose your cold blood/focus, and can't defend any more.
Or you can't actually defend anymore, because you just have no way, you're being overwhelmed.
Or you literally bowed down to your feet in clunky attempt to make sword blow land on your chest, instead of unarmored legs, that you don't really have any way to prevent the next one from landing.
And other stuff, and combination of everything.
Seriously, it's a game of imagination my good Ladies and Gentlemen!Last edited by Spiryt; 2010-09-03 at 03:49 PM.
Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2010-09-03, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Dodging, taking blows to the armor (there's a reason heavy armor is fought with bludgeoning weapons), getting bruised, and so forth. Higher constitution grants you higher endurance, letting you withstand more.
If an attack misses your AC, you were able to react in time well enough to avoid it with little effort, or the foe aimed poorly, or you blocked it with a shield, or you deflected it with your armor (rather than it impacting on your armor), or so on.Last edited by Esser-Z; 2010-09-03 at 03:51 PM.
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2010-09-03, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2010-09-03, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
If you have 20 lvls of fighter and get too tired of anything in less than ten minutes (100 rounds) just jump in the river with your full plate on... To explain certain situations fighters should have superpowers and for some they should less stamina than us. No logic here...
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2010-09-03, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Oddly enough, swimming in armor really isn't that difficult. I've done it. If it's well fitted at all, it doesn't restrict movement much(if it did, it'd suck in combat). The weight is mostly compensated for by the increased density of water.
I suppose if I was wearing something heavier than chain, it would have sucked more, but it wasn't especially hard.
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2010-09-03, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
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2010-09-03, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
You are using a different definition of "avoid". A more proper term could be "deflect" or even "soak" (don't bother with DR and deflection ac atm). Armor doesn't remove the impact from our body, just spreads or deflects it. A sword pointed at your chest is much less likely to kill with armor because if the attack angle isn't 'just' right, it'll hit the armor with an angle that makes it escape instead of penetrate.
So armor ac can, yes, include dodging because a movement can put the incoming attack at an angle at which the armor will deflect it.
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2010-09-03, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
No. The Fighter is better at deflecting blows with his armor. The rogue dodges, avoiding attacks entirely. The Fighter, meanwhile, shifts his body so that his armor catches the attack and redirects it harmlessly away. Or, alternatively, the blow just fails to harm him through his heavy armor.
Snake: HIVEMIND!Last edited by Esser-Z; 2010-09-03 at 04:03 PM.
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2010-09-03, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
:p I learned that when people were bitching about "breast" plate. "breast" plate is a horrible, horrible idea because it makes lethal attacks to the chest easier than if she didn't wear it.
Incidentally, armor spikes are bad on most locations for the same reason(that and people would cut themselves trying to dress you up).Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-09-03 at 04:07 PM.
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2010-09-03, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Encumbrance matters, ever tried running with weights on your ankles? 6 pounds on each leg is rather heavy.
esrz22 I think your logic doesn't hold water. It is easier to shift with an armor that has a higher armor check penalty? Fighter in light armor should shift his position with less success than when he is wearing heavy armor?
Snake-aes This is the way we (my group) interpreters it to, so we use mending etc. after combat on weapons and armor. + I agree about armor spikes.Last edited by Kaww; 2010-09-03 at 04:16 PM.
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2010-09-03, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Heavier armor is capable of redirecting more powerful blows, and has more surface area to do so. Therefore, a man in plate has an easier time using it to catch and/or deflect attacks than a man in lighter armor. The lighter armored man, though, is likely better at moving his body to completely avoid the attack.
Two different kinds of negating attacks.
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2010-09-03, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
It's not that it is easier to shift. it's that the "difference per angle" a shift in position makes to not suffer a blow is much greater if you can rely on a scraping attack not hurting you.
A fair analogy is the increased relative value of a damage reduction when you have a % damage immunity of the same type. An armor bonus would be the % immunity, while the shifting would be the reduction.
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2010-09-03, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
My first link was a description of a masaai warrior doing the same with a lion. This might help anyway.
Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-09-03 at 04:49 PM.
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2010-09-03, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Um, I point out that your prior arbitrary conditions had nothing to do with the issue under discussion, and your response is to impose an even more arbitrary condition? 10s and 11s only is not how the real world works. It's a completely irrelevant corner case.
As for the HP/AC discussion, it's not important to impose an internally consistent paradigm of health/defense that is comprehensive over all or even many combat and non-combat situations. All that matters is that the description you give for one particular situation makes sense for that situation. You can justify just about any overarching explanation of how HP or AC works, whether it be toughness, luck, skill, dodging, parrying, or whatever. Why dig deeper than that?
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2010-09-03, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Skimming through this, I've got to say you're wrong here. Recently, there was a farmer in Africa who managed to not only defend himself against a jaguar, but also killed it... by ripping out its freaking tongue.
Not the link to what I described above, but still appropriate. Suck it, nature!
EDIT: And kind of ninja'd.Last edited by Thrice Dead Cat; 2010-09-03 at 05:14 PM.
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2010-09-03, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-09-03 at 08:02 PM.
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2010-09-03, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-03, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2010-09-03, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
I believe he meant this article.
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2010-09-03, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Human muscles are capable of surprising strength, especially in the presence of adrenalin. And the tongue is connected by a relatively small area...
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2010-09-03, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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HP
My explanation of HPs is found in the spell "Harm." From way back in the day (that is 2E to 3E) it removed all but 1d4 of the target's hit points.
From that I deduce that humans have 1d4 hit points. All the rest is magical. In my gameworld fighters really do get spears in their necks, pull them out, and keep going. Until they are out of supernatural hit points: after that, it's just flesh and blood for the last d4.
If you want to represent realistic differences between people, that is what stats are for. A guy with CON 16 is a lot tougher than one with CON 10; a dude with STR 18 is going to curb-stomp two or three ordinary STR 10 guys.
But classes... classes are supernatural. Their benefits - like HP - are magical.www.WorldOfPrime.com and Sword of the Bright Lady (Flintlock Fantasy!)
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2010-09-03, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The reality of the game
Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:
Most people don't give enough credit to all the crazy **** going on in the Real World.
Humans have survived from having iron bars shot through their skulls, aeroplane crashes against mountainsides, falling from terminal velocity and having been drowned for hours. In the past, not only did men face dangerous beasts with little to no equipment, they were expected to in order to count as adults.
The fact that any of us are here is testament to craziness of humanity, and by extent, the real world.
I can't honestly believe people keep bitching about imaginary warriors surviving a few sword blows, when there have been people who've crawled through frozen steppes with their legs cut or climbed sheer cliffs after being shot full of bullets.
Even ordinary life defies common sense to the point that many people find it necessary to explain things away with ghosts, aliens, mass hypnosis or a variety of forum-unfriendly subjects, why is it such a sore spot that a game about heroic warriors contains unlikely survivals from time to time?"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."