Wizard -- Over Powered, or Just Right

[wayfare]

So I've been reading up on the tier system (which was linked to me after my 1st post), and I've been hanging out on the Barbarian vs. Fighter thread and I am a bit confused.

Wizards are spoken of as God-level characters -- is this a bad thing? Is this a flaw in the system, and if so, how do you handle it? Are there any responses to the mage that don't completely nerf the class?

I've played as a wizard in 3.5 before and I felt pretty vulnerable. But my group tends to hang around mid level stories, so I've never really played a super high level mage. 13-14 is where I've capped.

Any input is welcome.

[Private-Prinny]

It is bad. Very, very bad. A well-built Wizard can make entire parties completely redundant. The only things that can compete with a Tier 1 are other Tier 1s, and an entire party of those would tear any campaign apart at level 7 or so.

I find Tier 3 the most interesting. Everything has its own trick, is still useful in situations that can't be overcome by that trick (i.e. Beguiler casting Haste on the party when faced with constructs), but not powerful enough to snap a planet in half like a twig.

[wayfare]

It is bad. Very, very bad. A well-built Wizard can make entire parties completely redundant. The only things that can compete with a Tier 1 are other Tier 1s, and an entire party of those would tear any campaign apart at level 7 or so.

I find Tier 3 the most interesting. Everything has its own trick, is still useful in situations that can't be overcome by that trick (i.e. Beguiler casting Haste on the party when faced with constructs), but not powerful enough to snap a planet in half like a twig.

1) you have the best avatar ever.
2) I probably have not been paying close enough attention, but where do classes like the druid fall in terms of power?

[Zaq]

The Druid is one of the Big Five: (in no order) Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Artificer. (With certain alternative class features, Erudite sometimes also makes that list.) They're all extraordinarily powerful and have the capacity to snap your campaign in two if you don't have a really skillful party.

Druids have fewer "I win, no questions asked, don't even pretend you're in the same game as me" buttons than the wizard, but they don't really need them. They still have no shortage of options in any situation whatsoever, from 1 to 20.

[Kylarra]

Actually, Tier 2s can play alongside Tier 1s and are in fact equivalent in terms of power, it's simply that Tier 1's can be built to do nearly everything a Tier 2 can do, and still change again in the morning. The real difference between 1 vs 2 is limited spells/powers known vs unlimited, not gamebreaking potential.

[wayfare]

So, are there any viable fixes for the power differential?

[JoshuaZ]

It is bad. Very, very bad. A well-built Wizard can make entire parties completely redundant. The only things that can compete with a Tier 1 are other Tier 1s, and an entire party of those would tear any campaign apart at level 7 or so.

This isn't quite true. Many tier 2 can compete with tier 1. Sorcerer's for example can do a decent job every so often. The truth is that these issues depend to some extent on what the campaigns end up looking like. It would however be fair to say that of the top four classes, if two classes are 2 tiers apart they can't compete with each other, and if they are a single tier apart the higher tier one will shine a heck a of a lot more often. But you are correct that an all tier 1 campaign is asking to have the entire campaign world torn into little tiny pieces if they are being played at all sensibly. And yes, this is bad.

[Zaq]

So, are there any viable fixes for the power differential?

The only one that you can sum up in a sentence is "choose a certain tier and have the party mostly stick to it." Other than that, you need to get into heavy nerfings, homebrew/houserules, and a whole lot else.

Skillful players can voluntarily nerf themselves, but a lot of people find it really frustrating to be forced to do so just because their buddy wanted to roll a monk instead of a real class.

[Knaight]

So, are there any viable fixes for the power differential?

The tier one classes, with the exception of Artificer and Archivist, all have toned down equivalents. There is the Favored Soul, the Sorcerer, and the Wu Jen at tier 2 (Wu Jen might be tier 3), at Tier 3 there is the Beguiler, something Necromancer, War Mage, etc. The Druid has a few lower powered variants. Basically, don't use the tier 1 classes, or go through every spell and cut as necessary.

[Aharon]

Actually, it isn't that frustrating to play down your power, IMO. In fact, I found that for me, it enables roleplaying. I don't ponder making stupid/dangerous/non-gameing the system decisions IC OOC because I know, OOC, that my character will probably be able to deal with the results of those decisions without the DM having to fudge rolls.

There might still be some frustration for other players, though. I deliberately played a bufficer instead of an archificer (which would have overshadowed the rest of the party in terms of damage output), and they still complained - about the fact that I buffed them so much

(They also didn't like that I used Create Lantern Archon (BoED) to teleport us, and glibness)

[Gavinfoxx]

Basically, the thing that makes Tier 1 classes Tier 1 isn't so much "obscure class features" as "A huge gigantic spell list full of awesome spells, and access to large quantities of those spells, changeable each and every day, and the ability to cast a ton of them from scrolls".

Basically, the fact is that spells are the most powerful "class feature" in the game, and access to large quantities of powerful spells, which you can switch out every day as needed, or just cast from scrolls, can break many games in half.

Spend some time looking through the spells in the Player's handbook. Think about how a huge number of these spells can completely and utterly solve most random problems that the party might come across, without the help of, say, other members of the party.

Also, a level 13 wizard, if played correctly, even a *PHB ONLY* level 13 wizard, is perfectly capable of smashing campaigns in two, with absolutely no wealth per level. All it takes is good spell selection, and intelligent application of spellcasting.

[Eldan]

To elaborate on the above:
There are detailed guides out there on how Wizards can create (virtually) infinite money, get (virtually) infinite actions per turn, (virtually) infinite spell slots per day, instant kill spells with no saves or resistances and so on.
For blaster wizards, there are missiles from orbit, metal rods hot enough to induce fusion in the atmosphere, smashing the moon into the planet or summoning tons of antimatter. All possible, often with the core rules alone.

[Gavinfoxx]

NO NO NO. You dont mix real physics with D&D! NO real physics!

You use the RULES to do stuff, which lets you overcome any threat, not real physics! Using real physics just causes arguments; use Rules as Written instead.

Cause apparently if you use real physics to do stuff, catgirls die, though I have nooo idea why...

...the poor catgirls...

[BobVosh]

Tier chart is here for OP's reference: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

[Gavinfoxx]

Tier chart is here for OP's reference: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

Yes he mentioned in like, the first sentence, that I linked him to that in another thread. =D

[BobVosh]

Yes he mentioned in like, the first sentence, that I linked him to that in another thread. =D

Shh, no he didn't. ITS A TRAP!

Bluff: [1D20-2]7

I just saw him ask what a few classes were, since I scrolled down I already forgot what was in the first sentence...or something

*edit* No wait, I got it! I don't read inbetween ()'s. Thats it. *nods wisely*

[Morithias]

The real reason I believe the wizard is overpowered is because DM's forget two important parts of the RAW for those who like to use it.

1. The XP system states that as Dm you are allowed to alter xp gain by how much effort the party spends to get through it. In short wizards min/maxed to the point they can literally go through anything with no effort, should get no Xp, mainly because you don't learn quantum physics so to speak by doing 2 + 2 over and over.

2. Random encounters. So the wizard just used some trick to blow away all of his spells to destroy an encounter in one blow? Have a dire bear or something attack in the night, and kill him. Also if they don't say they put anyone on guard or anything, don't assume they did. He's breaking your camp, you have the right to be a jackass. In short, if a player can be a munchkin to counter a killer Dm, a non-killer DM can turn into a Killer one to counter a munchkin.

[Shadowleaf]

The real reason I believe the wizard is overpowered is because DM's forget two important parts of the RAW for those who like to use it.

1. The XP system states that as Dm you are allowed to alter xp gain by how much effort the party spends to get through it. In short wizards min/maxed to the point they can literally go through anything with no effort, should get no Xp, mainly because you don't learn quantum physics so to speak by doing 2 + 2 over and over.

2. Random encounters. So the wizard just used some trick to blow away all of his spells to destroy an encounter in one blow? Have a dire bear or something attack in the night, and kill him. Also if they don't say they put anyone on guard or anything, don't assume they did. He's breaking your camp, you have the right to be a jackass. In short, if a player can be a munchkin to counter a killer Dm, a non-killer DM can turn into a Killer one to counter a munchkin.

Of course DM Fiat will win over the Wizard.

Any munchkin worth his salt won't let a random encounter stop him. At lower levels, there's the Rope Trick. Medium you can switch to Magnificent Mansion, and higher levels there's the Teleport to Genesis plane.

You also forgot 3) While Wizards might not be, Wizards' players are vurnable to thrown books.

[ghost_warlock]

All possible, often with the core rules alone.

Arguably, the worst offenders of all are in core.

Have a dire bear or something attack in the night, and kill him. Also if they don't say they put anyone on guard or anything, don't assume they did.

This really isn't even that much of a problem for parties with a level 3+ wizard.

[Morithias]

Of course DM Fiat will win over the Wizard.

Any munchkin worth his salt won't let a random encounter stop him. At lower levels, there's the Rope Trick. Medium you can switch to Magnificent Mansion, and higher levels there's the Teleport to Genesis plane.

You also forgot 3) While Wizards might not be, Wizards' players are vurnable to thrown books.

Well I'm sure there are ways to counter those too. I don't know what the rope trick is, but I'm sure one can stop Magnificent Mansion with enough thought.

As for Genesis, well nothing is stopping an enemy of said mage from say plane shifting there and waiting, add in the fact that things like devils called by other devils don't vanish, and you could easily justify an ECL 30+ challenge, after just a few weeks.

[Shadowleaf]

Arguably, the worst offenders of all are in core.

Teleport, Polymorph, PaO, Time Stop, Genesis, Shapechange, Gate, and the dozens of utility spells? Yep.

Only Orbs, Celerity and Shivering Touch is really missing.

Well I'm sure there are ways to counter those too. I don't know what the rope trick is, but I'm sure one can stop Magnificent Mansion with enough thought.

As for Genesis, well nothing is stopping an enemy of said mage from say plane shifting there and waiting, add in the fact that things like devils called by other devils don't vanish, and you could easily justify an ECL 30+ challenge, after just a few weeks.

Rope Trick is a spell, you climb into it and rest for the night - it's an extradimentional space, and therefore extremely hard to influence at low levels.

Well, you could just throw the Gods at the Wizard, they're ECL30+ too. I don't see how getting into a pissing contest with the Wizard is going to help in any way - if you're the DM, you can kill your players if you want to. Point it you shouldn't want to, you should be tailoring your campaign to their characters, debuff the Wizard or simply disallowing the Wizard class.

[icefractal]

Although I'd note that while Wizards certainly can smash the world in half, that doesn't mean they have to. While trying to downplay a Wizard to the level of a Samurai or Healer gets difficult, I've had no trouble playing one at the level of Tier 3 classes, and to an extent Tier 4 (the Wizard might be overall more useful, but not to the extent of rendering them obsolete).

And of course, a Wizard with poor spell selection is Tier 4-6, so there's certainly variance in actual play.

[Zeful]

Teleport, Polymorph, PaO, Time Stop, Genesis*, Shapechange, Gate, and the dozens of utility spells? Yep.

Only Orbs, Celerity** and Shivering Touch is really missing.

*Not Core. OGL material yes, Core no.
**Doesn't exist.

[Koury]

1. The XP system states that as Dm you are allowed to alter xp gain by how much effort the party spends to get through it. In short wizards min/maxed to the point they can literally go through anything with no effort, should get no Xp, mainly because you don't learn quantum physics so to speak by doing 2 + 2 over and over.

What?

1. Determine each character’s level. Don’t forget to account for
ECL (see Monsters as Races, page 172) if any of the characters
are of a powerful race.
2. For each monster defeated, determine that
single monster’s Challenge Rating.
3. Use Table 2–6: Experience Point
Awards (Single Monster) to crossreference
one character’s level
with the Challenge Rating for
each defeated monster to
find the base XP award.
4. Divide the base XP award by the
number of characters in the party. This is
the amount of XP that one character
receives for helping defeat that monster.
5. Add up all the XP awards for all the
monsters the character helped defeat.
6. Repeat the process for each character.

You don't get less experiance for a fight that was easier because you ambushed the bad guys, for example. Just like you don't get more for being ambushed.

[Vangor]

Wizards are spoken of as God-level characters -- is this a bad thing? Is this a flaw in the system, and if so, how do you handle it? Are there any responses to the mage that don't completely nerf the class?

Bad if they actively seek out the role, but how about talk to people you chose to play with who are likely your friends or want to play a campaign?

Well I'm sure there are ways to counter those too. I don't know what the rope trick is, but I'm sure one can stop Magnificent Mansion with enough thought.

As for Genesis, well nothing is stopping an enemy of said mage from say plane shifting there and waiting, add in the fact that things like devils called by other devils don't vanish, and you could easily justify an ECL 30+ challenge, after just a few weeks.

Why do you need enough thought when you're the DM purposefully trying to target and kill a character? Just say X happens and be done if this is how the group is playing. If you feel the player, no matter what tier the class is represented as, is being abusive, exploiting, or breaking the campaign, talk about this. No one in my campaign needs to draw my wrath because they are not there to "win" D&D but play through a campaign, as I am there not to kill the party but guide them through a campaign world.

And were I there to kill the party, I make challenging but possible encounters, not throw Faiths and Pantheons at them.

[Eldan]

What?

You don't get less experiance for a fight that was easier because you ambushed the bad guys, for example. Just like you don't get more for being ambushed.

That falls under intelligent planning, sure, it's the kind of thing that nets the same XP.

However, the higher the level gets, the wonkier the CR/EL system becomes. It can be that you make what's supposed to be a balanced encounter and the PCs wipe it away in two rounds, without taking out their big guns, because someone had the right piece of equipment handy, or the right spell prepared, or because they were all highly resistant to acid. On the other hand, it can be that a monster just wipes out the entire party, just because they didn't have the right counter measure. At low levels, a shadow can be absolutely lethal if no one has a magical weapon. The wizard has his one magical missile, then he also runs dry. In those cases, giving a little more or less XP is entirely justified.

[Koury]

In those cases, giving a little more or less XP is entirely justified.

Justified, sure. But its not exactly Da Rulez, as Morithias claimed, as far as I can see.

[AslanCross]

So, are there any viable fixes for the power differential?

Many suggestions have been made. I've seen none that genuinely fixed the problem; most of them seemed like more trouble than they were worth. In practice, I've seen wizards do just fine without making other players feel bad, even with broken spells such as Celerity.

Banning spells should be done carefully---"core only," as has been mentioned, is not necessarily a fix. Lots of core spells are broken. In fact, I'm tempted to say that "all-non-core only" might actually turn up less broken spells than core only, but it kills some spells that are necessary for the continued survival of fellow PCs (Restoration, for example) and some that are iconic (fireball) and decent without being broken (Mage Armor).

Psion is a decent replacement, but not everyone uses or likes Psionics.

The best "fix," IMO, is a gentleman's agreement between the players and DM that abuse will not be tolerated. I've been fine with Solid Fog getting dropped on my monsters, frankly---they usually have ways around it anyway (teleportation, reach).

Keeping games below Lv 12 is typically a good way to prevent the really insane things as well (Shapechange, Wish).

Oh yeah: Ban Polymorph. If there's one spell that deserves banning, it's that. I'm sure there are specific fixes for it, but I don't know of one off the top of my head.

[2xMachina]

IMO, Wizards don't break the game, Munckin breaks the game.

Uberchargers can also bore the rest of the players.

But then again I don't see the need for balance. It's not a 1vs1 game. It's a team game. If I build casters, I care about the rest of the team. That prevents most problems.

And unless you're looking to TPK them, the wizard/cleric having something broken up their sleeves can save you from having to fudge to save them when something bad happens.

And another game (MMORPG) I played... personal power isn't important.
The most wanted chars in a team is a class that is useless, but great buffing powers. In fact, the best possible team is has 50% pure support characters.

[Morty]

Many suggestions have been made. I've seen none that genuinely fixed the problem; most of them seemed like more trouble than they were worth. In practice, I've seen wizards do just fine without making other players feel bad, even with broken spells such as Celerity.

Banning spells should be done carefully---"core only," as has been mentioned, is not necessarily a fix. Lots of core spells are broken. In fact, I'm tempted to say that "all-non-core only" might actually turn up less broken spells than core only, but it kills some spells that are necessary for the continued survival of fellow PCs (Restoration, for example) and some that are iconic (fireball) and decent without being broken (Mage Armor).

Psion is a decent replacement, but not everyone uses or likes Psionics.

The best "fix," IMO, is a gentleman's agreement between the players and DM that abuse will not be tolerated. I've been fine with Solid Fog getting dropped on my monsters, frankly---they usually have ways around it anyway (teleportation, reach).

Keeping games below Lv 12 is typically a good way to prevent the really insane things as well (Shapechange, Wish).

Oh yeah: Ban Polymorph. If there's one spell that deserves banning, it's that. I'm sure there are specific fixes for it, but I don't know of one off the top of my head.

I agree. The destructive effect wizards have on parties is exagerrated quite often. Just because the Wizard class can break the game doesn't mean it will. Solutions should be applied after the problem appears.