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    Default Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    The Dagger Master is skilled with the dagger. Many rogue's and assassins become dagger masters, because daggers are easy to hide.

    Hit Die
    d8.

    Note: unless otherwise stated, a punching dagger counts as a dagger for the purpose of this class's requirements and abilities.

    Requirements
    To qualify to become an dagger master, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
    Feats: Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Finesse
    BAB: +6
    Special: Sneak Attack +1d6

    I haven't figured out how to code a table...but here are the class features in as neat a format as I can get them.

    BAB: good (class level)
    Fortitude and Will: bad (level/3)
    Reflex: good (2+level/2)

    Class Skills:
    The dagger masterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill points per level:
    6+ intelligence modifier

    Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
    Dagger masters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Dagger Master
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Sneak attack, Improved Dagger Finesse

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Dagger Feats, Dagger Lock-pick, Conceal Dagger

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Sneak attack, Super Thrower, Piercing Dagger

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Critical Dagger, Dagger Feats, Conceal Dagger

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Sneak attack, Improved Super Thrower

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Uncanny Dodge, Dagger Feats, Piercing Dagger, Conceal Dagger

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Sneak attack,Deadly Dagger

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Improved Critical Dagger, Conceal Dagger

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Sneak attack, Piercing Dagger

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Improved Deadly Dagger, Unstoppable Dagger Throw, Conceal Dagger[/table]


    Sneak Attack:
    This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If a dagger master gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

    Dagger Lockpick: You have learned to use your dagger as a lock-pick. While wielding a dagger, you add one-third your BAB to Open Lock checks. If the dagger is magical with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher, add the enhancement bonus to the check as well. This counts as having a set of thievesí tools.

    Conceal Dagger: At 2nd level, your ability to hide your weapon improves. Add 1 to Sleight Of Hand checks made to conceal a dagger. This bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every two levels after that.

    Improved Dagger Finesse:
    You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with daggers if you use your dexterity modifier for attacks (i.e. if you either make use of weapon finesse or throw a dagger). Additionally, when attacking with a dagger, you may use your dexterity modifier for damage rolls instead of your strength modifier. This applys to thrown daggers as well at melee damage rolls.

    Dagger Feats:
    Some feats normally limited to fighters can be taken by the dagger master. The following list gives alternative prerequisites to certain dagger-related feats. Note that a fighter can still take these feats normally:
    Weapon Specialization (dagger):2nd level dagger master
    Greater Weapon Focus (dagger):4th level dagger master
    Greater Weapon Specialization (dagger): 6th level dagger master
    Weapon of Choice (must be a dagger): 8th level dagger master
    Note: These are NOT bonus feats. The dagger master qualifies for the above mentioned feats, but does NOT automatically get them.

    Uncanny Dodge: At 6th level, the dagger master gains uncanny dodge. This is identical to the rogue ability. If the dagger master already has uncanny dodge, he instead gets improved uncanny dodge.

    Critical Dagger:
    At 4th level, the critical range for all attack rolls made with a dagger increases to 17-20/x3. At 8th level, this increases to 15-20/x4.
    This also affects thrown daggers. This benefit doesnít stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon
    For a punching dagger, the critical range is different. At 4th level, a punching dagger's critical range becomes 19-20/x4. At 8th level, the critical range becomes 18-20/x5.
    Deadly Dagger: The damage die for your dagger increases by one size. Additionally, if you make a sneak attack with a dagger, replace each d6 with d8. If you have another class feature or feat that increases the size of Sneak Attack damage dice, these abilities stack, and each additional size increase follows the rules in the PHB.
    At 10th level, the damage die for your dagger increases by an additional size.

    Super Thrower: At third level, the range increment for your thrown daggers increases by 5 feet. This stacks with other sources such as Far Shot.
    UPDATE 6/8/2011: Additionally, you can make Sunder attempts with a thrown dagger.

    At 5th level, the range increment increases by an additional 5 feet. In addition, when throwing a magic dagger with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher, you have learned to throw the dagger so that it turns in mid-air. When you throw a magic dagger, you may have it turn 90 degrees once before it reaches its target.

    At 10th level, the maximum range increases by another 5 feet. Additionally, when throwing a magical dagger, you can cause it to turn twice before hitting its target. Also, when throwing daggers, you ignore cover that is not total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment.

    Piercing Dagger: You have learned to strike your enemies where their armor does not cover. Once per day, a when making an attack with a dagger (either melee or ranged), you may make the attack as a touch attack. At 6th, level, this can be used twice per day. At 9th level, it can be used three times per day.

    Epic progression:

    Sneak attack continues to increase at every odd level, except that it increases by 1d8, not 1d6.

    You gain an additional use per day of Piercing Dagger at 12th level and every 3 levels afterward.

    Your Conceal Dagger bonus continues to increase every two levels.

    Bonus Feat: The epic dagger master gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of dagger master bonus feats) every 4 levels after 20th.

    Epic Dagger Master Bonus Feat List:
    Blinding Speed, Combat Archery, Dexterous Fortitude, Dexterous Will, Epic Dodge, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Speed, Epic Trapfinding, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Sneak Attack, Legendary Climber, Lingering Damage, Self-Concealment, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative, Uncanny Accuracy, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Specialization (dagger), Greater Weapon Focus (dagger), Greater Weapon Specialization (dagger), Epic Weapon Focus (dagger), Epic Weapon Specialization (dagger).


    UPDATE: 6/8/2011!
    I thought of something that I thought could be useful: the ability to Sunder with a ranged attack. This is not by itself enough to warrant a new thread (maybe a feat), but I thought it was somewhat appropriate to a dagger thrown by the daggermaster. So I added it to the "super thrower" feature.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2011-06-08 at 05:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|Class Abilities
    1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Sneak Attack +1d6, Improved Dagger Finesse
    2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|
    3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Sneak Attack +2d6[/table]

    Improved Dagger Finesse is an okay ability at 1st level.

    Qualifying for subpar feats is... less than impressive.

    Critical Dagger is okay, but you should note it stacks with Improved Critical/Keen.

    Deadly Dagger is not a capstone.

    It's spelled "rogue".

    Other than that... you have no real class abilities. There's nothing that does anything, just numbers boosts. Prestige classes, especially masters of weaponry, need to have tricks. They need new stuff - if you don't gain anything by taking the prestige class, what's the point? As is, I see nothing that makes this even remotely more interesting than taking a level of, say, Commoner.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    I added a new feature: throwing weapons that change directions in mid-air. This represents superb throwing talent.
    Additionally, I added the ability to use the dagger as a lockpick. It still needs some more work before its ready for play though.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    Have it modify range increment not maximum range; especially as Max range is 100-ft if you put Far Shot into it so that the ability actually nerfs you when you first get it.

    Second have it ignore cover not just turn once when thrown. More specifically I'd turn the turns once into Ignores Cover less than Total, and turns twice into something more complicated that actually includes a 90 degree turn and can get around total cover.

    Also think about a 1/encounter or X/day ability to make an attack with a dagger into a touch attack as you aim for the weak point in the armor.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    I adjusted it so that it improves range increment. I left the single and double turns in, but added to them the ability to ignore cover and concealment. I added a separate power to make a touch attack Level/3 times per day. This also makes it a bit more appealing to an epic level character (since now it is closer to the epic rouge, gaining two continuing class features as well as bonus feats).
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    Um, range increments go by multiples of 5 since each square is 5ft.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    2d3 is not a real increase over 1d6 and it's far more annoying. Less so with electronic rolls but that's not always possible.

    I'd recommend advancing the sneak attack dice to d8's while using dagger weapons instead. It's a bigger step up but its more convenient and a more noticeable increase in damage you won't always see with 20d3.

    Also you talk about people taking the class because daggers are easy to hide but you don't give any concealed weapon benefits or anything just make throwing daggers more appealing and sneak attacks insignificantly better.

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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    Daggerdaggerdaggerdaggerdagger. Just so you know, the word "dagger" appears 71 times in the original post.

    All right, beginning at the beginning:

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    The Dagger Master is skilled with the dagger. Many rouge's and assassins become dagger masters, because daggers are easy to hide.
    I would have never inferred that dagger masters would have some sort of talent with daggers. Glad that was cleared up. Also, as mentioned before, it's spelled "rogue." Rouge is that red powder that you put on your face. A rogue is someone who wants to backstab you and steal your money. Possibly in that order.

    Hit Die
    d6.

    Requirements
    To qualify to become an dagger master, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
    Feats: Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Finesse
    BAB: +6
    Special: Sneak Attack +1d6
    Special: proficient with a dagger
    All looks good, but Weapon Focus requires you to be proficient with the weapon so the last Special is probably unnecessary.

    I haven't figured out how to code a table...
    The stickied post at the beginning of the homebrew section should contain some links that lead you through it.

    but here are the class features in as neat a format as I can get them.

    BAB: good (class level)
    Fortitude and Will: bad (level/3)
    Reflex: good (2+level/2)

    Class Skills:
    The dagger masterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skill points per level:
    6+ intelligence modifier
    Saves look as expected, same for class skills. Skill points are low. They still have all the skills of a rogue, but now have less points to put in them?

    From this point on, I'll quote stuff I have a problem with.

    Dagger Lockpick: You have learned to use your dagger as a lock-pick. While wielding a dagger, you may use your melee attack bonus in place of your open lock skill. This roll is modified by feats and items which enhance your melee attack rolls with a dagger. This counts as having a set of thievesí tools.
    Interesting, but it's not going to be that much higher, considering you can have your level +3 points in Open Lock, compared to a character with the best BAB (level=BAB), which this one isn't, as you have to throw in at least one rogue level. True, with things like Weapon Focus and this class' abilities, you'll go over your skill check bonus, but not by much. Probably a better way to do it might be to let them, say 1/day, add their BAB to their Open Lock check as long as they are wielding a dagger.

    Critical Dagger:
    At 4th level, the critical range for all attack rolls made with a dagger increases to 18-20/x2. At 8th level, this increases to 18-20/x3.
    This also affects thrown daggers.
    As stated before, you need to specify whether this works with Improved Critical/Keen or not.

    Deadly Dagger: The damage die for your dagger increases by one size. Additionally, if you make a sneak attack with a dagger, replace each d6 with 2d3 (so for example, if you would otherwise deal 10d6 sneak attack damage, you instead deal 20d3.)
    At 10th level, the damage die for your dagger increases by an additional size.
    As stated, most people don't have more than one or two d3's and some none at all. I have to agree that increasing the die type on sneak attack is a much better solution. As stated, it's true that there are electronic die rollers, including as phone apps, but a lot of DMs won't accept electronic die rollers.

    Just thought of something else. There are feats out there like Sacred Strike (I believe it's called) that says your sneak attacks deal d8's of damage against evil creatures. At this point, it could be interpreted that that 20d3 sneak attack becomes 20d8.

    Super Thrower: The range increment for your thrown daggers increases to 15 feet.
    At 5th level, the range increment increases to 20 feet. In addition, when throwing a magic dagger with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher, you have learned to throw the dagger so that it turns in mid-air. When you throw a magic dagger, you may have it turn 90 degrees once before it reaches its target.

    At 10th level, the maximum range increases to 25 feet. Additionally, when throwing a magical dagger, you can cause it to turn twice before hitting its target. Also, when throwing daggers, you ignore cover that is not total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment.
    It's probably a bad idea to have set numbers in there. Just say that the range increment increases by 5 feet. Someone that throws a lot of daggers quite possibly has the Far Shot feat, after all. Also, I personally think it's not quite congruent with their fluff, allowing them to change a dagger's flight. They don't have telekinetic abilities after all.

    I'm not going to try touching the Epic stuff. Typically, PrCs don't have epic progressions but it can be done. Again, the 2d3 you list in the epic should be changed.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    Well i think 6 skill points is fine with full BAB over a full 10 level progression. 8 + full always feels a little too much. That said I'd recommend increasing the hitdice to d8's to make it more appealing for the slightly more combat orientated, don't want them taking to big a hit and losing a few skill points may be worthwhile for a more combat capable chassis. Especially since the class abilities atm don't have any need to fear being overpowered.

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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    While it is more combat oriented, the skills list needs to be pared down to get rid of non-combat-oriented skills to reflect more of a focus on combat than sweet-talking or theft, or the skill points need bumped up. That's a lot of skills, and not as many points to put in them as you used to get.


    Edit: I can see that things like Knowledge (Local) and Perform were already taken away, though, and probably more, so 6 + Int may be fine.
    Last edited by Zom B; 2010-09-17 at 07:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    1. In my games, d3s are done via d6/2, rounded up, which is why I was not worried about the trouble to obtain a sufficient supply of dice. I realize, though, that while 20d6 are much easier to obtain, it is still a pain to roll that many dice. And 1/2 damage per 2 levels isn't all that much, so I did as suggested and made sneak attack damage into d8s.
    Also, I clarified that it stacks with other size increases such as Sacred Strike.

    2. Adjusted the super thrower description to give an increase in range increment, not a fixed value.

    3. Re-did Dagger Lockpick. I did it differently than Zom suggested, however.

    4. Concealing daggers: I added another ability that scales with class level.

    5. About the mid-air turn, my idea was that the character becomes so skilled that it seems as if they have magical control over their dagger (similar to how very high ranks in use rope allow you to mimic animate rope.)

    6. I increased the HD to d8.

    7. I removed the requirement of proficiency with daggers, as it is redundant.

    8. I clarified Critical Dagger. It does not stack with with keen/improved critical, but is now better.

    9. Tomorrow, I will re-do the skill list, and format this into a table.
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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    Any particular reason why it's only dagger and not other daggeresque weapons such as kukri or punching dagger?

    You could take a page from the 3rd edition weapon master and just have the critical threat range improve by 2 and the critical multiplier by 1 to allow more even progression of the 3 main types of daggers

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    Default Re: Dagger Master [3.5 PrC]

    @above: The idea was to take an ultra-weak SIMPLE melee weapon and make it powerful. The kukri, despite resembling a dagger and not being much better, is a martial melee weapon. As for the punching dagger, well, I hadn't thought of that Punching dagger now counts as a dagger for the purpose of this class, EXCEPT for critical dagger where it is treated differently. The class is now in table format. I have removed some of the class skills. I am thinking about adding a boost to disable device (i.e. jamming up the device by sticking a dagger in it), which can't hurt as this class is definitely not overpowered. Sleight of Hand and some other assassin-type skills are kept, because they help the character sneak into a government-building for an assassination (because daggers are easy to hide).
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    I vote for everything this guy says. I like the cut of his jib.
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    Am I pathetic for copying this signature from Cizak? Yes. Of course I am.

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