[BitP:R] BleachitP: Reborn: OOC Thread 12

[Kuroimaken]

My point is, Serazel could (in theory) already do that.

Unlike Vicente, he DOES have the ability to cloak himself visually (though in combat it's usually a moot point to do so, as combat is by definition in constant jarring motion). Silence-wise, too.

What you claim would make Vicente overpowered is something of an ability that, in theory, Serazel would already have.

What has been pointed out, repeatedly, is that in terms of offense/defense, Vicente doesn't have one-shot capability. (Neither does Serazel, for that matter.)

Another point: the second a Espada dies, all the others are likely to be doubly on their guard. They're not so weak that being asleep equates being helpless for them - this isn't D&D. Hierro is not something you turn off when you get to dreamin'.

The more you consider this, the more it becomes obvious that he'd be lucky if he could one-shot ONE Espada, much less several in a row.

[Frozen_Feet]

Riccaru, I still don't get why you're so hung up on the thought of Pesquisa being crucial sense for all Espadas. Also, third time's the charm: Vincente is not omniscient. He's not the only one who can hide. He still can't get a drop on enemy who he can't locate or doesn't expect.

But enough of that. We're starting to repeat ourselves. As far as I'm concerned, Vincente can acquire that cloak somewhere down the line. Let's focus on getting Ep. 3 to a fine conclusion.

[Draken]

The point of the matter here seens to be that you believe Vicente can one shot an Espada.

He could sneak on an espada, perhaps, and then he could try one attack, and would have to make that one attack count, because afterwards he would be out in the open against a strong (potentially stronger) enemy with only one wound given for his advantage, except most every PC hollow regenerates, so that wound would be gone shortly.

The cloak hides his reiatsu, but it doesn't hide anything else, it is nifty, it is fun, but Kyakko is better in every way.

[Kuroimaken]

Works for me.

It should be noted that the Fraccion are likely hand-picked out of the Numeros for their specific abilities (Las Noches isn't a democracy after all - it's more or less a meritocracy and a monarchy rolled in one). If out of two million Hollows you get a Numeros, then out of every, say, ten or twenty Numeros you pick a Fraccion.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't pick weaklings for servants in a dog-eat-dog society of backstabbers.

[KnightDisciple]

Works for me.

It should be noted that the Fraccion are likely hand-picked out of the Numeros for their specific abilities (Las Noches isn't a democracy after all - it's more or less a meritocracy and a monarchy rolled in one). If out of two million Hollows you get a Numeros, then out of every, say, ten or twenty Numeros you pick a Fraccion.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't pick weaklings for servants in a dog-eat-dog society of backstabbers.

This rings true. And follows through for how I've explicitly described his abilities.

Now. All this hulabaloo aside. Is there anyone else who objects to the idea? I'd like to hear if there are any more opinions. If you're indifferent, that's fine too.

[Kuroimaken]

Eh, I'm fine with it.

As I believe was demonstrated by the fight between Serazel and Vicente, it's not about how good your hammer is, it's about how good you are with it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

...I was thinking that Regeneration was a standard Hollow ability...

Whoops. ^_^;

I'm guessing I'm mistaking Regeneration for the ability for Hollows to recover themselves?

Actually regeneration IS a standard hollow ability. Hierro replaces regeneration for (most) arrancar. But you should still mention how strong it is Inyu because it still varies based on the hollow.

Eh, I'm fine with it.

As I believe was demonstrated by the fight between Serazel and Vicente, it's not about how good your hammer is, it's about how good you are with it.

"Ya don't have a goo' nough hammer den."

[InyutheBeatIs]

Actually regeneration IS a standard hollow ability. Hierro replaces regeneration for (most) arrancar. But you should still mention how strong it is Inyu because it still varies based on the hollow.



"Ya don't have a goo' nough hammer den."

Oh...I fix now.

"Also, Primera, THAT'S WHAT SHE SA-"

*tackles*

SHUT UP!!

Sorry if I'm interrupting anything, but I thought I'd write up the sheet for Carmelia, the Yuki-Onna Hollow.

Carmelia, Yuki-Onna Hollow:

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Name: Carmelia
Gender: Visibly female
Age: Around 80
Height: Around 5'9"
Apect of Death: Cold
Reiatsu: A freezing wind, accompanied by a buzzing of fireflies.
Speech: Cyan

Appearance:

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Carmelia appears to be a tall woman in a billowing dress. She doesn't have any hair, instead appearing bald. Her mask looks like a woman sleeping, and covers her face entirely, as well as some of her head. Interestingly, Carmelia doesn't appear to have any eyes, as where the eyes would be on her mask instead look like closed eyelids. However, she can still see.

Personality:

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A bit of an Ice Queen (pun intended). Cold and holier-than-thou, especially when it comes to humans. She thinks of them as lowly insects, and often calls them such.

However, she is rational. She has a tendency to examine things that pique her interest as well.

Abilities:

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Cero: Average.

Garganta: Capable.

Reiatsu: Extremely plentiful.

Regeneration: Average for a hollow. She can regenerate a completely amputated limb in about an hour, whereas small injuries can recover in about 30 seconds.

Levitation: Carmelia has the ability to levitate, essentially gaining the ability to fly. She can reach impressive speeds with this, but often chooses to float around the battlefield. This ability costs negligable reiatsu.

Arctic Weaverflies: During battle, Carmelia can surround herself with odd balls of light that look like fireflies. Upon close inspection, they emit cold mist.

These are essentially balls of reiatsu that act as extensions of Carmelia. These weaverflies can create ice that Carmelia can control in a similar manner to the weaverflies. How much it can form depends on how large the formation is and how fast she wants it made. The faster she wants it and the larger she wants its, the more taxing it is. The reverse is also true.

Replenish: When her reiatsu gets low, Carmelia can enter into a meditative trance that replenishes reiatsu. However, when she is in this trance, she cannot react to any outside stimulus, regardless of nature. She is essentially helpless in this phase.

Background:

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Carmelia was the wife of a huntsman in life. One day, a thief came in the middle of the night and stole their food. Thus, her husband went out to hunt for more food. However, it was in the middle of the winter, and she had caught a fever. Several days passed, and her husband never returned. She went out in an attempt to find him. But, her fever overtook her, and she ended up dying of hypothermia.

When she became a hollow, she hunted down the thief and her husband and killed them both, as well as large swaths of animals and several hunters in the area. Eventually, she lost interest in the mortal realm and passed into Hueco Mundo. She eventually led a small group of hollows, wandering around trying to advance their position. Her last assignment was from an Adjuchas to find an object in the Mortal World. She was the only survivor.

Am I doing it right?

Anyways, how is it now?

[KnightDisciple]

Riccaru, I still don't get why you're so hung up on the thought of Pesquisa being crucial sense for all Espadas. Also, third time's the charm: Vincente is not omniscient. He's not the only one who can hide. He still can't get a drop on enemy who he can't locate or doesn't expect.

But enough of that. We're starting to repeat ourselves. As far as I'm concerned, Vincente can acquire that cloak somewhere down the line. Let's focus on getting Ep. 3 to a fine conclusion.

Frozen's right. I listed multiple models for a reason. He won't have Model 5 for a bit yet. I'll probably have him working on the Model 2 here in my next HM post, though.

And I approve of finishing out Ep. 3. As well as the Arena Fight. The Officer's party probably has some life, but we should at least consider how to transition things for the aftermath of Ep. 3.

Actually regeneration IS a standard hollow ability. Hierro replaces regeneration for (most) arrancar. But you should still mention how strong it is Inyu because it still varies based on the hollow.

I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea, but this is why I like to give numbers to things.
Maybe put the regen on a scale, or look for other Arrancar with good regen. Then say "compared to this, it's better/worse/the same" and so on.

"Ya don't have a goo' nough hammer den."

As amusing as reading Genoveva's odd dialogue might be, and noting her like of using large amounts of power, Kuroimaken was making a very solid, very relevant point. I'd hope people can actually stop and consider it still, in light of the conversation as a whole.

[riccaru]

As amusing as reading Genoveva's odd dialogue might be, and noting her like of using large amounts of power, Kuroimaken was making a very solid, very relevant point. I'd hope people can actually stop and consider it still, in light of the conversation as a whole.

If you ask me, there still wasn't a huge amount of tactics going on in that fight. It really was a straightforward fight like any other character would have done. Except Tark, but that's entirely another matter.

If the size of the hammer doesn't matter, try pounding in railroad spikes with a squeek-toy.

[KnightDisciple]

If you ask me, there still wasn't a huge amount of tactics going on in that fight. It really was a straightforward fight like any other character would have done. Except Tark, but that's entirely another matter.

If the size of the hammer doesn't matter, try pounding in railroad spikes with a squeek-toy.

Uh, were you reading the same fight? There certainly were tactics. Each was using unique skills, abilities, and so on to attempt to confuse and distract their opponent. The fight was in its early stages when Mei's appearance disrupted it (hence why Vicente and Serazel were both essentially uninjured).

As for the hammer metaphor...No, I'm not going to bother. You know exactly what he means, and you know exactly what you're doing.

[Callos_DeTerran]

As amusing as reading Genoveva's odd dialogue might be, and noting her like of using large amounts of power, Kuroimaken was making a very solid, very relevant point. I'd hope people can actually stop and consider it still, in light of the conversation as a whole.

"Pssh..Ah only use 'nough power ta get de job done. 'times dat means bringin' da big hammers."

Or to put it more clearly...

A) Genoveva doesn't like using large amounts of power if the situation calls for it. There's intimidation value in that, but it also means somebody has a better idea of what her limits are, which is bad.

B) Kuroimaken does have a relevant point. I'm also pointing out the opposite side of that very point, that 'there's a thresh-hold where no amount of strategy can overcome brute force'. It didn't apply in the situation between Serazel and Vincente, and I don't even think it's come up in this game yet at all BUT there is a point where it doesn't matter how well you can use your hammer if your opponent has a significantly better hammer. Or 'you need power to back up the strategy'. No one expects like...Shizuka to beat Geister. She just isn't powerful enough to do it. It wouldn't matter if she was channeling Sun Tzu, Batman, Hannibal, or every single military strategy genius in existence, she just doesn't have the mojo to do it. That's a rather extreme example, but I tend to need extreme examples to make my points clear...so...yeah.

[riccaru]

Uh, were you reading the same fight? There certainly were tactics. Each was using unique skills, abilities, and so on to attempt to confuse and distract their opponent. The fight was in its early stages when Mei's appearance disrupted it (hence why Vicente and Serazel were both essentially uninjured).

As for the hammer metaphor...No, I'm not going to bother. You know exactly what he means, and you know exactly what you're doing.

Which is what any other fighter would be doing. How is this tactical brilliance?

My point stands. There has to be some measure of stronger people will most often win. What I'm doing is using a very wide range to show my point. The point is, there's a power gap which counts for something no matter how "smart" they are in a fight.

[InyutheBeatIs]

Which is what any other fighter would be doing. How is this tactical brilliance?

My point stands. There has to be some measure of stronger people will most often win. What I'm doing is using a very wide range to show my point. The point is, there's a power gap which counts for something no matter how "smart" they are in a fight.

Didn't we establish way earlier that one of the key factors is fighting smart?

[riccaru]

Didn't we establish way earlier that one of the key factors is fighting smart?

Isn't there also an extremely long standing historical context saying, no matter how smart you fight, eventually someone's going to brutally rip through your tactics with sheer force?

The Alamo comes to mind, as do many other instances. The Spartan last stand at Thermopylae is a good example. They fought smart, but in the end the brute force was far too much for them.

[KnightDisciple]

It's not like Batman could beat, say, Superman. Wait....

At any rate, I see something of the point.

Issue is, Vicente hasn't even come close to engaging in hostile action with a being that has that much of a power gap on him. So, the analogy stands.

I think just saying "the stronger people will most often win" is...too broad. If the strength gap is comparatively small, it should still be up in the air if the weaker person fights smart. Only as the gap starts to widen should it become closer to a "foregone conclusion". Not that we should ever get to the point of "well, X character attacked Y. Y dies because X is so much more omgstronger than Y. No questions asked.". Draken's spoken to that attitude before (saying even Kina would have a chance to not die if faced with Von Geister, slim that it might be).

Edit: The Spartans and Thespians (and assorted others) at Thermopylae accomplished their objective. They went in knowing they would die. Their whole objective was "buy time for the rest of Greece". Which they did. So that's actually a case in favor of "tactics can beat even overwhelming strength".

[riccaru]

It's not like Batman could beat, say, Superman. Wait....

At any rate, I see something of the point.

Issue is, Vicente hasn't even come close to engaging in hostile action with a being that has that much of a power gap on him. So, the analogy stands.

I think just saying "the stronger people will most often win" is...too broad. If the strength gap is comparatively small, it should still be up in the air if the weaker person fights smart. Only as the gap starts to widen should it become closer to a "foregone conclusion". Not that we should ever get to the point of "well, X character attacked Y. Y dies because X is so much more omgstronger than Y. No questions asked.". Draken's spoken to that attitude before (saying even Kina would have a chance to not die if faced with Von Geister, slim that it might be).

I don't care how smart Batman is. Just try it. There's still a limit to what Batman can do. Also, nowhere in canon does it show Batman could beat Superman consistently. Superman would probably sit up in space and hurl meteors at the planet if it came right down to it.

Edit: You're saying that the Spartans won, just because they bought time? They still all died. Painfully. If that's a win, what would have been a loss for them?

[KnightDisciple]

Not getting into a comics fight. Even though Hush made Batman vs Superman canon.
The more salient point is: We should never have a fight where the participants are so notably mismatched in terms of abilities.

Not for anything other than pre-arranged plot. Sending a fresh Unseated to fight the Segunda Espada just isn't going to happen. And so on.

Instead, we deal with conflicts where the power gap is much, much smaller.

Edit: A loss would have been Persia rolling over them in an hour, and moving on to decimate Greece. But they held the pass. They did what they needed to do. They accomplished victory.

Victory isn't always about winning that one individual fight, when you're speaking on a large, military scale.

[riccaru]

Not getting into a comics fight. Even though Hush made Batman vs Superman canon.
The more salient point is: We should never have a fight where the participants are so notably mismatched in terms of abilities.

Not for anything other than pre-arranged plot. Sending a fresh Unseated to fight the Segunda Espada just isn't going to happen. And so on.

Instead, we deal with conflicts where the power gap is much, much smaller.

First, you brought up comics. I just used the same thing to shoot you down.

Second, if someone wants to fight Edward as an unseated, it's their choice. Not yours.

And third, the point still stands that power is a factor just as much, if not more, than fighting smart is. With more power you can use more tactics that would be suicidal to someone weaker. Or you can push through the enemy tactics and take them down. Hard.

[Terry576]

I'm a little worried about Akio. He seems a little bit too... Passionate to make a good temporary captain.

He's shooting off five different forms of kido at Elder, right after she broke a zanpakuto.

Today is a good day to retreat, considering she broke a zanpakuto.

[riccaru]

I'm a little worried about Akio. He seems a little bit too... Passionate to make a good temporary captain.

He's shooting off five different forms of kido at Elder, right after she broke a zanpakuto.

Today is a good day to retreat, considering she broke a zanpakuto.

a low seated shinigami's zanpakuto that already was under extreme conditions. Not that big of an accomplishment. Also, if Akio were to run away now, Elder would be capable of either a) following him back to the gates, or b) murdering Allan then working her way through the other shinigami and mortals unchecked.

She's also faster than he is. Retreating without slowing her down is a horrible idea.

[KnightDisciple]

First, you brought up comics. I just used the same thing to shoot you down.

Callos brought them up. I semi-humorously countered the point. You didn't "shoot me down", though.

Again, comics aren't the best example.

Second, if someone wants to fight Edward as an unseated, it's their choice. Not yours.

I was speaking on a matter of general principle, not an absolute edict.

And third, the point still stands that power is a factor just as much, if not more, than fighting smart is. With more power you can use more tactics that would be suicidal to someone weaker. Or you can push through the enemy tactics and take them down. Hard.

I concede that power plays a role alongside tactics and intelligence. I don't believe it's a "larger" role, until you get to notable levels of disparity.

My point, again, is that Vicente, who relies on intelligence and precision in his fights more than raw, brute power, has yet to engage in a battle where the power disparity is notable enough to utterly negate intelligence, preparation, and planning.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I think just saying "the stronger people will most often win" is...too broad. If the strength gap is comparatively small, it should still be up in the air if the weaker person fights smart. Only as the gap starts to widen should it become closer to a "foregone conclusion". Not that we should ever get to the point of "well, X character attacked Y. Y dies because X is so much more omgstronger than Y. No questions asked.". Draken's spoken to that attitude before (saying even Kina would have a chance to not die if faced with Von Geister, slim that it might be).

There's a bit of a difference between 'surviving' and 'killing Von Geister' which is what I meant. Strategy can still work when working to escape or accomplish a secondary objective that isn't contingent upon beating your opponent. Genoveva's comment (and thus my own) is that in a 'kill or be killed' situation, strategy can only bridge certain gaps in accomplishing the goal of defeating/killing your opponent. As the gap widens, strategy becomes less useful for attacking and more so for figuring a way out of the situation. Thus the 'Shizuka/Kina wouldn't be able to kill Von Geister no matter how smart they go about it. They simply are not strong enough to do the actual deed'. If they are merely trying to distract, survive, avoid, something else then it becomes useful (to an extent) once more.

As for gaps of that size should never happen except for pre-arranged plots...well I disagree on the basis that no one can perfectly predict how things are going to turn out in a free-form. Accidents happen or poor decisions were made, I just hope in such an unfortunate situation that the one on the short end of that particular stick doesn't hope to come out on top or looking like a total badass and roleplays responsibly. It sucks, but sometimes a character dies in less then ideal conditions because it's what SHOULD happen, instead of pulling out deus ex machina, plot hax, mac guffins, or unrealistic reinforcements. I know because I've lost a character that way, you just roll with it and try to make it work.

[strawberryman]

And third, the point still stands that power is a factor just as much, if not more, than fighting smart is. With more power you can use more tactics that would be suicidal to someone weaker. Or you can push through the enemy tactics and take them down. Hard.

So, on one hand, you argue about how no one with power can beat Vicente because of his tactics, despite the fact that he does not have the strength to take Espada out one by one.

On the other, you're pushing that power trumps tactics? And it isn't conceivable that any Espada could have enough to trump Vicente's M5 cloak.

It kind of seems like we're just going around in circles here and arguing for the sake of arguing, when we could just let, y'know, RP happen, and deal with it then, instead of talking 5 pages or more over the possibilities.

[Frozen_Feet]

a low seated shinigami's zanpakuto that already was under extreme conditions. Not that big of an accomplishment. Also, if Akio were to run away now, Elder would be capable of either a) following him back to the gates, or b) murdering Allan then working her way through the other shinigami and mortals unchecked.

She's also faster than he is. Retreating without slowing her down is a horrible idea.

All good points. Of course, Elder isn't going to do either a) or b), but it's not like Akio knows that.

[riccaru]

Callos brought them up. I semi-humorously countered the point. You didn't "shoot me down", though.

Again, comics aren't the best example.

I was speaking on a matter of general principle, not an absolute edict.

I concede that power plays a role alongside tactics and intelligence. I don't believe it's a "larger" role, until you get to notable levels of disparity.

My point, again, is that Vicente, who relies on intelligence and precision in his fights more than raw, brute power, has yet to engage in a battle where the power disparity is notable enough to utterly negate intelligence, preparation, and planning.

1) Yes, I did. You implied Batman could take on anything. Try taking on a being who can create entire sentient races and turn on a sun.

2) It seemed like a fairly concrete opinion, rather than a rule of thumb. Never is not a word that lends itself to much leeway.

3) What planning, or overabundant intelligence? He's doing the same things in every situation, and using the powers/objects at his disposal. It's not exactly a brilliant tactical breakthrough. No one's going to say "Wait. We can use things we have with us!? I never thought of that."

[riccaru]

So, on one hand, you argue about how no one with power can beat Vicente because of his tactics, despite the fact that he does not have the strength to take Espada out one by one.

On the other, you're pushing that power trumps tactics? And it isn't conceivable that any Espada could have enough to trump Vicente's M5 cloak.

It kind of seems like we're just going around in circles here and arguing for the sake of arguing, when we could just let, y'know, RP happen, and deal with it then, instead of talking 5 pages or more over the possibilities.

I'm saying that being nearly undetectable to most Espada is overpowered. It's also a power, not a tactic.

And at a point, no matter how smart you are, something will be strong enough to crush you eventually.

Power won't save you from being subject to his cloak at all. No matter how strong your abilities are, he's still hidden from you unless you're an extremely rare case.

[KnightDisciple]

So, on one hand, you argue about how no one with power can beat Vicente because of his tactics, despite the fact that he does not have the strength to take Espada out one by one.

On the other, you're pushing that power trumps tactics? And it isn't conceivable that any Espada could have enough to trump Vicente's M5 cloak.

It kind of seems like we're just going around in circles here and arguing for the sake of arguing, when we could just let, y'know, RP happen, and deal with it then, instead of talking 5 pages or more over the possibilities.

This. So very much this, this, this, THIS. Gah.

[riccaru]

This. So very much this, this, this, THIS. Gah.

Now let's look back at every time Sereg attacked him, shall we?

Anyway, it's quite evident I'm wrong, as I always am. Sorry for being wrong all the time. I'm dropping the subject now.

I'm failing to see how I was the one prolonging the argument.

[InyutheBeatIs]

...*headdesk*

Please...no more...just play the game!!