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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    So? How does one do it? Please don't suggest "Steal their Spellbook" and "Drag them in a Dead Magic Zone" as these are very situational and borderline DM fiat.

    And no, nuking it out with your own overpowered Wizard/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper is not a solution. Are there any good ways (classess, items, summons, races, feats etc.) to reliably take on high level Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers (and may be Druids but don't focus on their BEAR POWER aspects)

    If you must know, this is inspired by the "everyone gets a DnD ball and chooses a class" thread i saw here yesterday. It seems that anyone with half a brain would and will go for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Archivist, Factotum etc. so i figured there must be something out there.

    I remember in AD&D (as in: Baldur's Gate II, yes I know PC games and all that) there was a Mage Slayer kit for Fighters but it pretty much sucked arse.

    I know of the Spellthief PrC but it didn't seem very strong last time i bothered reading up on it (which was a long time ago).

    Also, please assume the casters have adequate defenses set up, so "ambush them with arrows" doesn't quite work out at CLVL 15+

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    There are a couple of builds that let you get saves high enough to pass any save DC and at the same time getting a touch AC high enough that casters need to use true strike to have a shot at hitting you.

    Then the biggest problem you have is to keep the Tier 1 caster from running away. That is assuming he doesn't disjoin your gear first.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Play a Monk. The Wizard will be laughing so hard at your feeble attempt to kill him that he'll fumble his spells and you can snap his neck

    Play a Sorcerer. Like a Wizard but Tier 2, target his spell list at Mage slaying.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Be a dragon. (What? They only cast as T2 casters...)

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    There are a couple of builds that let you get saves high enough to pass any save DC and at the same time getting a touch AC high enough that casters need to use true strike to have a shot at hitting you.
    Those builds are a joke. They're turtles that do nothing. If you want to kill a caster, you need a good offense, not a good defense; defending is a battle you've already lost anyways. Besides, caster can get bigger numbers in all those stats with buff spells if they so desire.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    So? How does one do it?

    And no, nuking it out with your own overpowered Wizard/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper is not a solution.
    Of course it's not a solution, given that the limitation is "not being a T1".

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Also, please assume the casters have adequate defenses set up, so "ambush them with arrows" doesn't quite work out at CLVL 15+
    You need another caster, but T2 (Sorcerer, etc), well prepared.
    OR another class, even a fighter, with many levels higher than the wizard (7-8 will suffice), thus compensating with far superior WBL.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    You need another caster, but T2 (Sorcerer, etc), well prepared.
    OR another class, even a fighter, with many levels higher than the wizard (7-8 will suffice), thus compensating with far superior WBL.
    Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

    I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Hmm.. Haven't seen one of these threads for a while now..
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

    I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.
    You'd say to start from a 15 lev. wizard
    We'd have a sort of arena tournament, with various matches between optimized wizards 13°, Vs optimized Fighters 20°.
    The win were almost equally distribuited between the two, exactly for the enormous WBL difference, so yeah, I think a fighter 22-23 will win 40%-50% Vs a Wiz. 15.

    Edit: in those arena tournament, there weren't PrCs.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2010-09-17 at 04:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

    I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.
    No, you don't understand.
    He meant he can kill a level 1 wizard with a level 9 fighter.
    I assume this is doable
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I have oftened wondered how as a GM you would challenge a wizard without just wizarding striaght back at them.

    At lower levels its easy as the spells per day limit does come into play, at higher levels it seems that a wizard would never run out of spells.

    I am interested after say lvl 5, the players of wizards on these boards do you ever run out of spells ?
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Rogue 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Spymaster 7/Black Dog 5/XXX

    You're a spymaster 7: try as they might, they're not going to get a divination to detect you as an enemy unless you want them to or you screw up. Against all but the most paranoid of casters, you should be able to deliver poison often enough that it should eventually stick against most casters. They probably won't dump con, but they won't pump it hugely either.

    Essentially, you have the capacity to move the conflict from a combat test to a skill test. It will fall apart against sufficient contingencies though. If you grab spymaster, you can do this with several tactics.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-09-17 at 04:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Rogue 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Spymaster 7/Black Dog 5/XXX

    You're a spymaster 7: try as they might, they're not going to get a divination to detect you as an enemy unless you want them to or you screw up. Against all but the most paranoid of casters, you should be able to deliver poison often enough that it should eventually stick against most casters. They probably won't dump con, but they won't pump it hugely either.

    Essentially, you have the capacity to move the conflict from a combat test to a skill test. It will fall apart against sufficient contingencies though. If you grab spymaster, you can do this with several tactics.
    Delivering poison...how? Touch? Dropping it in thier food supplies? What moderately high level wizard actually eats, or at least eats beyond a heroes feast?
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    No, you don't understand.
    He meant he can kill a level 1 wizard with a level 9 fighter.
    I assume this is doable

    No, what I said is Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13.


    The WBL difference had some chance to beat the wizard, OK, not 50-50 (1 on 3 in those matches), but it can.
    (note that one of the encounter won by the wiz., took 18 pages, so it wasn't an easy walk)
    If the Wiz. is 15°, and you have a epic WBL, you still can beat him.
    When the wiz. approaches lev. 18°, almost surely you can't.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2010-09-17 at 05:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    It seems that anyone with half a brain would and will go for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Archivist, Factotum etc.
    Are you saying that anyone with half a brain will always choose the most powerful class in a ROLEPLAYING game to play? Because I -and I suspect a lot of other people - could easily take offence at that...

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
    From the SRD: emphasis mine
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    This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.


    any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    Are you saying that anyone with half a brain will always choose the most powerful class in a ROLEPLAYING game to play? Because I -and I suspect a lot of other people - could easily take offence at that...
    I believe they meant the thread about picking a D&D class if you were allowed one in real life. I large proportion of people picked T1 casters and almost everyone chose a T1/T2/unlimited class eg. Warlock, Binder etc.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Soren Hero View Post
    ...

    any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait
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    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-09-17 at 05:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Anti Magic Field NET

    Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

    If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixG View Post
    Anti Magic Field NET

    Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

    If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D
    Box under a hat?

    Also: Adrupt jaunt. And how did you get in net range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren Hero View Post
    Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
    From the SRD: emphasis mine
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    This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.


    any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait
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    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixG View Post
    Anti Magic Field NET

    Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

    If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D
    As a DM, adjudicating whether the net landed on the wizard's hat or not, and thus whether the net is inside or outside the resulting unshrunk item, would be a nightmare.

    EDIT: Wait, actually, no, it wouldn't. I'd just add some arbitrary number to the wizard's AC and say you had to hit that in order to hit the wizard and miss the hat.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-09-17 at 05:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Simpler than that. Rogue with a scroll of AMF and Hide in Plain Sight as an ex ability. Use the scroll, sneak up on the caster, grapple. Their all-day buffs? Suppressed. Their crafted contingencies? Suppressed. They've got a something shrunken on them that expands when the AMF hits? You're hugging him, your a rogue, it's gonna be a reflex save or dex check to have it affect you the same as it affects him.

    Works at any level as long as you're willing for the NPCs to blow a scroll of AMF (or possibly just hire an NPC to cast it) on the task.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Any class with a housecat as animal companion...
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Kill them at lvl 1.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Delivering poison...how? Touch? Dropping it in thier food supplies? What moderately high level wizard actually eats, or at least eats beyond a heroes feast?
    Black Dog allows poison delivery of any poison (regardless of normal delivery method) on contact and allows delivery of any indigestible poison to a food or drink without actually handling the food or drink in question.

    And yes (not that it matters for your particular objection, as they need only reliably ingest something) but I'm assuming that most wizards aren't paranoid enough to eat only conjured food. I'm also assuming that they don't have spend most of their free time crafting contingent spells. I'm also assuming they occasionally shake hands with acquaintances and occasionally dine in their presence.

    I'm not assuming that they don't take precautions before doing so. Spymaster is there to deal with those precautions. Any divination on you reveals only the details of the appropriate cover identity.

    They're powerful yes, but they're still people. I fully expect that they, say, purify the food before eating: powerful people have food tasters for the exact same purpose. But I'll also assume that they do like eating at restaurants or occasionally having a coffee with an adventuring companion. The degree of paranoia often ascribed to wizards on this forum is a good model for insanity (even if the presumed dangers are true).
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-09-17 at 06:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    28 pages. You'll have to read through a bit, but there are some builds that can deal with PO casters in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    The degree of paranoia often ascribed to wizards on this forum is a good model for insanity (even if the presumed dangers are true).
    Just a little.

    Actually I was assuming a ring of sustenance, or being undead, or any other of 100 ways to not need to eat.

    Black dog sounds neat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
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    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Attack them when they're level 1.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Attack them when they're level 1.
    Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

    And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself?
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