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2010-09-25, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-25, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Yeah they are still not the same question. Just because you don't like that by expending resources someone can lessen the effects of one part of the rules does not make it wrong or the two questions the same.
Really with all the totally not working parts of the rules this fits in just fine.
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2010-09-25, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Zagreb
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
There exists a DM ruling to a lot of spells.Or, what I mean is that a single DM might rule each spell differently. Or even the same DM might rule the results of a spell differently dependent on the time it was cast.
For example, in a game where a fighter is trying to kill a wizard. After the DM asks the players actions for the day, and the wizard casts contact other plane successfully, the DM might tell the wizard that the fighter will attack him that day.
However, the fighter (even though he wants to fight the wizard) can't find him due to the wizard hiding in his MMM. So it ends up that the DM lied to the wizard, since nothing will attack him that day.
The point I am trying to make is that, while contact other plan when successfully cast might give correct information, it usually won't. Since the one who decides the answers is a DM, a human, and not a greater deity.
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2010-09-25, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Pretty much the entirety of core rules are based on semantics. The thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one". As it happens, the best way IS to find a sufficiently terrible build (or to just be a sorcerer).
As I said before, whether or not you can reword a question to ask it again is virtually meaningless, because you STILL can't guarantee that you will get the right answer. Even if you ask the same question 1000 times, there is still a chance you will get a lie every time.
And for that matter, if the answer you get is inconsistent, you have no way to tell which one was correct. If the first time you ask something you get a "yes", and the next time a no...well, guess what? You now know the answer is either yes or no...or those are both lies and it is something else. In short, asking the same question repeatedly still doesn't give you a 100% chance of avoiding attack.Last edited by 137beth; 2010-09-25 at 08:43 PM.
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2010-09-25, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I think this is a perfectly good reason to disallow Contact Other Plane abuse in-game. It's essentially DM fiat, however, and doesn't really have any relation to the rules beyond "what the rules should be."
For that matter, the table itself is bizarre. The fact that there's a flat percentage chance that the deity will know something or not, regardless of which deity it is or what the question is about, is patently ridiculous. As long as one aspect of the spell is breaking verisimilitude, it doesn't seem like a huge deal that another aspect is.SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-09-26, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
^About COP, I might like to point out something about using COP in that fashion.
You run out of spell slots.
Asking every question in triplicate burns through your spells like a 10 year old through a candy jar.
I wish people would stop thinking that it would solve everything. It's a major advantage that the target has to defend from (Mindblank or Nondetection) but still has to be acted on.
Well, at least it doesn't solve everything unless you bind an elemental weird (MM2) for it's COP at will as a free action supernatural ability...
And I'm sure that would count as sufficiently nasty to be far into TO territory.
EDIT:
At most, the wizard will know the time and place of an incoming attack.
And if there's too many of these attacks incoming, then he'll have way too many to defend from. Or he'll run out of questions.Last edited by jseah; 2010-09-26 at 04:20 AM.
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2010-09-26, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I'd like to know where this mistaken idea came up that you can't ask the same question twice. There is nothing in the rules to support this. It does not say "unique questions," it says "questions."
Binding an elemental weird is not something a high level wizard would be loathe to do. This is a theoretical discussion, not practical, thus any trick that can gain an advantage can and will be used by the wizard.
Also, a TO wizard will have hundreds of questions available to ask in a given day. It's not unheard of to have a caster level in the hundreds or two-hundreds. If they use all their 5th level slots in just one day a week, they can ask upwards of a thousand questions depending on CL optimization to determine all threats for that week.Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-26 at 08:56 AM.
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2010-09-26, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.
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2010-09-26, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Well it normalizes at a certain number of asked questions and the distribution would indicate the right answer. Though this mixes OOC knowledge ie the probabilities with IC knowledge ie the answers.
/Edit I like the don´t ask questions twice houserule will use it for my games too nowLast edited by Emmerask; 2010-09-26 at 09:47 AM.
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2010-09-26, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
It wouldn't be OoC for a wizard who likely has maxed ranks in several knowledges to know that gods' may try to screw them over. Nor would it be strange for the wizard to go with the most consistent answer from their divine magic 8-ball, regardless of any actual statistical analysis.
Seriously, what were the devs thinking when they wrote up CoP?
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2010-09-26, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Ok, so the answer will statistical. With multiple questions with varying answers you just estimate the true one (and it's likeliness) by assuming binomial distribution (you can assume some more complicated distribution to account for random answers). This means, that the wizard will prepare his spellslots for the situation (or situations) with the highest probability and he will keep a bunch of scrolls and limited-use items just in case of alternative scenarios. In the long run it will be the most cost-efficient method of keeping high security standards.
In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2010-09-26, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I'm not sure where you get this mistaken belief that you absolutely must know for 100% certain. If you get the same answer twice, there is only a 3% chance you got the wrong answer. There is less than a 1% chance to get the same erroneous answer three times. It is reasonably safe to assume that consistency reveals truth in this situation.
He can easily prepare for battle every time his COP warns him of even a possible threat, and by doing so will be prepared for >99.9% of battles.Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-26 at 10:27 AM.
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2010-09-26, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Yes you could argue that someone studied the spell to an extant that he knows the likelihood of the answers but this is pretty much in the dms hands.
The knowledge that the gods may want to screw you alone is not enough if you don´t know the probabilities.
If no one has done it yet and you didn´t study it too then all the knowledge in the world does not help you
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2010-09-26, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
There is no DM in this exercise. There are only the rules. This is a theoretical discussion, and as such a DM ruling has no place in it.
There is no way a wizard would NOT have a fairly good understanding of how often his questions are answered truthfully. He may not know the exact probabilities, but he absolutely would have a general idea.
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2010-09-26, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Is there anywhere a passage in the rules that says the caster does know this?
Or where do you take this certainty about the knowledge?
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2010-09-26, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that a spellcaster would have a general idea of what effect his spell will have before he casts it. It's not like wizards just memorize a spell with no idea what it will do. If he didn't know, how would have any clue that he could get more reliable answers from a greater deity?
It makes no sense to think the caster wouldn't have a reasonable idea of the outcome of his efforts.Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-26 at 11:10 AM.
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2010-09-26, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Ah, but you wanted a theoretical raw discussion, therefore anything that is not written is not allowed nor reasonable
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2010-09-26, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Right. So wizards throw fireballs at peasants because they tried to cast locate object. Monks are not proficient with their fists. Fighters don't even know what a scimitar IS. Rogues don't know that traps exist, and don't know that hiding makes them harder to see.
Nobody in the world ever does anything because they don't know what will happen.
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2010-09-26, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
And that is why Raw is stupid
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2010-09-26, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2010-09-26, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
This is starting to remind me of the old warhammer 40K 'maxim' of "If it doesn't say you can't, you can". Most typically referenced in "Well, the codex doesn't say I can't have my Warboss quad-wielding twin-linked gatling railguns...". Things like Drowning to Heal and Monks proficient in Unarmed are stupid oversights - casters apparently not knowing what their spells is beyond 'stupid oversight' and into 'incapable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously'.
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2010-09-26 at 11:44 AM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2010-09-26, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2010-09-26, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I'm not sure where you get this mistaken idea that your opinion is more important than anyone else's.
You want this discussion to favour the Wizard and so constantly ignore points that don't support your opinion, argue strict reading of anything non-wizard that might be a little debatable if it might threaten the Wizard and the loosest possible reading of anything you have convinced yourself makes the Wizard an unassailable God.
With regards CoP you are looking at the wrong numbers.
There is a 12% chance that the Gods themselves do not know the answer to your impertinent question or have decided to deliberately mislead you. It doesn't matter how many times you ask a particular question or how you weasel the wording the answer is still going to be the same.
I don't know or I ain't telling won't change no matter how many times you ask.Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-26, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-26, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Yeah, I was looking at the wrong numbers, the odds of determining truth are even better.
In regards to the answer not changing, that isn't how it works. Unlike divination, which says:
Originally Posted by Divination
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2010-09-26, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2010-09-26, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Yes. Earlier on, there was a claim that the wizard could gain 100% certainty. The point I was trying to make is that he cannot be certain, even if he is reasonably confident.
@beholder: read my posts more carefully. I assumed that you COULD ask the same question multiple times, AND get a different answer each time.
Now, your'e left with another problem. If you want to be nearly certain that you get the correct answer, you will have to ask the same question a lot in order to know. A 20th level wizard only gets 20+ a bunch of bonus uses of contact other plane each day. Now, if the question is "will I be attacked tomorrow", and the wizard uses all their high level spell slots to determine that the answer is "yes", they still don't know when or how they will be attacked the next day. This is why foresight was proposed before CoP--it tells you exactly when you will be attacked. The wizard will not be able to prepare for every possible attack using CoP alone, they will need foresight.
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2010-09-26, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-26, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.
Again.
The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.
So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?
Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-26, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007