Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Maxios]

Rogue with invisibilty ring and a +1 dagger. That wizard would never see it coming

[olentu]

My entire point was that I don't think the semantics are relevant here.

You get one question per two caster levels. Those aren't two questions, they are the same question asked twice. I could ask the question once in every language that I know. Each would be semantically completely different but would nevertheless all be the same question.

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.

As has been pointed out the probabilities of getting the correct answer change with each repeat. They rise to essentially 100% immediately, you get 4 questions at the first level you can cast the spell.

If the mechanics render the table meaningless why bother printing the table?

Now that I think about it all of the negative results are either that the Deity in question doesn't know the answers or deliberately intends to deceive the questioner. Why would any of those things change in under a minute?

Yeah they are still not the same question. Just because you don't like that by expending resources someone can lessen the effects of one part of the rules does not make it wrong or the two questions the same.

Really with all the totally not working parts of the rules this fits in just fine.

[Tehnar]

There exists a DM ruling to a lot of spells.Or, what I mean is that a single DM might rule each spell differently. Or even the same DM might rule the results of a spell differently dependent on the time it was cast.

For example, in a game where a fighter is trying to kill a wizard. After the DM asks the players actions for the day, and the wizard casts contact other plane successfully, the DM might tell the wizard that the fighter will attack him that day.

However, the fighter (even though he wants to fight the wizard) can't find him due to the wizard hiding in his MMM. So it ends up that the DM lied to the wizard, since nothing will attack him that day.

The point I am trying to make is that, while contact other plan when successfully cast might give correct information, it usually won't. Since the one who decides the answers is a DM, a human, and not a greater deity.

[137beth]

That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

Pretty much the entirety of core rules are based on semantics. The thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one". As it happens, the best way IS to find a sufficiently terrible build (or to just be a sorcerer).

Yeah they are still not the same question. Just because you don't like that by expending resources someone can lessen the effects of one part of the rules does not make it wrong or the two questions the same.

Really with all the totally not working parts of the rules this fits in just fine.

As I said before, whether or not you can reword a question to ask it again is virtually meaningless, because you STILL can't guarantee that you will get the right answer. Even if you ask the same question 1000 times, there is still a chance you will get a lie every time.
And for that matter, if the answer you get is inconsistent, you have no way to tell which one was correct. If the first time you ask something you get a "yes", and the next time a no...well, guess what? You now know the answer is either yes or no...or those are both lies and it is something else. In short, asking the same question repeatedly still doesn't give you a 100% chance of avoiding attack.

[Gametime]

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.

I think this is a perfectly good reason to disallow Contact Other Plane abuse in-game. It's essentially DM fiat, however, and doesn't really have any relation to the rules beyond "what the rules should be."

For that matter, the table itself is bizarre. The fact that there's a flat percentage chance that the deity will know something or not, regardless of which deity it is or what the question is about, is patently ridiculous. As long as one aspect of the spell is breaking verisimilitude, it doesn't seem like a huge deal that another aspect is.

[jseah]

^About COP, I might like to point out something about using COP in that fashion.
You run out of spell slots.
Asking every question in triplicate burns through your spells like a 10 year old through a candy jar.

I wish people would stop thinking that it would solve everything. It's a major advantage that the target has to defend from (Mindblank or Nondetection) but still has to be acted on.


Well, at least it doesn't solve everything unless you bind an elemental weird (MM2) for it's COP at will as a free action supernatural ability...
And I'm sure that would count as sufficiently nasty to be far into TO territory.

EDIT:
At most, the wizard will know the time and place of an incoming attack.

And if there's too many of these attacks incoming, then he'll have way too many to defend from. Or he'll run out of questions.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'd like to know where this mistaken idea came up that you can't ask the same question twice. There is nothing in the rules to support this. It does not say "unique questions," it says "questions."

Binding an elemental weird is not something a high level wizard would be loathe to do. This is a theoretical discussion, not practical, thus any trick that can gain an advantage can and will be used by the wizard.

Also, a TO wizard will have hundreds of questions available to ask in a given day. It's not unheard of to have a caster level in the hundreds or two-hundreds. If they use all their 5th level slots in just one day a week, they can ask upwards of a thousand questions depending on CL optimization to determine all threats for that week.

[137beth]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.

[Emmerask]

Well it normalizes at a certain number of asked questions and the distribution would indicate the right answer. Though this mixes OOC knowledge ie the probabilities with IC knowledge ie the answers.


/Edit I like the don´t ask questions twice houserule will use it for my games too now

[Zodiac]

Well it normalizes at a certain number of asked questions and the distribution would indicate the right answer. Though this mixes OOC knowledge ie the probabilities with IC knowledge ie the answers.

It wouldn't be OoC for a wizard who likely has maxed ranks in several knowledges to know that gods' may try to screw them over. Nor would it be strange for the wizard to go with the most consistent answer from their divine magic 8-ball, regardless of any actual statistical analysis.

Seriously, what were the devs thinking when they wrote up CoP?

[Radar]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.

Ok, so the answer will statistical. With multiple questions with varying answers you just estimate the true one (and it's likeliness) by assuming binomial distribution (you can assume some more complicated distribution to account for random answers). This means, that the wizard will prepare his spellslots for the situation (or situations) with the highest probability and he will keep a bunch of scrolls and limited-use items just in case of alternative scenarios. In the long run it will be the most cost-efficient method of keeping high security standards.

[BeholderSlayer]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken belief that you absolutely must know for 100% certain. If you get the same answer twice, there is only a 3% chance you got the wrong answer. There is less than a 1% chance to get the same erroneous answer three times. It is reasonably safe to assume that consistency reveals truth in this situation.

He can easily prepare for battle every time his COP warns him of even a possible threat, and by doing so will be prepared for >99.9% of battles.

[Emmerask]

It wouldn't be OoC for a wizard who likely has maxed ranks in several knowledges to know that gods' may try to screw them over. Nor would it be strange for the wizard to go with the most consistent answer from their divine magic 8-ball, regardless of any actual statistical analysis.

Seriously, what were the devs thinking when they wrote up CoP?

Yes you could argue that someone studied the spell to an extant that he knows the likelihood of the answers but this is pretty much in the dms hands.
The knowledge that the gods may want to screw you alone is not enough if you don´t know the probabilities.

If no one has done it yet and you didn´t study it too then all the knowledge in the world does not help you

[BeholderSlayer]

Yes you could argue that someone studied the spell to an extant that he knows the likelihood of the answers but this is pretty much in the dms hands.
The knowledge that the gods may want to screw you alone is not enough if you don´t know the probabilities.

If no one has done it yet and you didn´t study it too then all the knowledge in the world does not help you

There is no DM in this exercise. There are only the rules. This is a theoretical discussion, and as such a DM ruling has no place in it.

There is no way a wizard would NOT have a fairly good understanding of how often his questions are answered truthfully. He may not know the exact probabilities, but he absolutely would have a general idea.

[Emmerask]

Is there anywhere a passage in the rules that says the caster does know this?
Or where do you take this certainty about the knowledge?

[BeholderSlayer]

Is there anywhere a passage in the rules that says the caster does know this?
Or where do you take this certainty about the knowledge?

I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that a spellcaster would have a general idea of what effect his spell will have before he casts it. It's not like wizards just memorize a spell with no idea what it will do. If he didn't know, how would have any clue that he could get more reliable answers from a greater deity?

It makes no sense to think the caster wouldn't have a reasonable idea of the outcome of his efforts.

[Emmerask]

Ah, but you wanted a theoretical raw discussion, therefore anything that is not written is not allowed nor reasonable

[BeholderSlayer]

Ah, but you wanted a theoretical raw discussion, therefore anything that is not written is not allowed nor reasonable

Right. So wizards throw fireballs at peasants because they tried to cast locate object. Monks are not proficient with their fists. Fighters don't even know what a scimitar IS. Rogues don't know that traps exist, and don't know that hiding makes them harder to see.

Nobody in the world ever does anything because they don't know what will happen.

[Emmerask]

And that is why Raw is stupid

[BeholderSlayer]

And that is why Raw is stupid

Applying a little common sense doesn't require a DM.

[The Glyphstone]

This is starting to remind me of the old warhammer 40K 'maxim' of "If it doesn't say you can't, you can". Most typically referenced in "Well, the codex doesn't say I can't have my Warboss quad-wielding twin-linked gatling railguns...". Things like Drowning to Heal and Monks proficient in Unarmed are stupid oversights - casters apparently not knowing what their spells is beyond 'stupid oversight' and into 'incapable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously'.

[BeholderSlayer]

This is starting to remind me of the old warhammer 40K 'maxim' of "If it doesn't say you can't, you can". Most typically referenced in "Well, the codex doesn't say I can't have my Warboss quad-wielding twin-linked gatling railguns...". There are some things that just don't count as Rule 0 despite not being in the rulebook - casters knowing what spells they prepared and what those spells do is one of them.

+1 to that. Well said.

[crizh]

I'd like to know where this mistaken idea came up that you can't ask the same question twice. There is nothing in the rules to support this. It does not say "unique questions," it says "questions."

Binding an elemental weird is not something a high level wizard would be loathe to do. This is a theoretical discussion, not practical, thus any trick that can gain an advantage can and will be used by the wizard.

Also, a TO wizard will have hundreds of questions available to ask in a given day. It's not unheard of to have a caster level in the hundreds or two-hundreds. If they use all their 5th level slots in just one day a week, they can ask upwards of a thousand questions depending on CL optimization to determine all threats for that week.

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken idea that your opinion is more important than anyone else's.

You want this discussion to favour the Wizard and so constantly ignore points that don't support your opinion, argue strict reading of anything non-wizard that might be a little debatable if it might threaten the Wizard and the loosest possible reading of anything you have convinced yourself makes the Wizard an unassailable God.

With regards CoP you are looking at the wrong numbers.

There is a 12% chance that the Gods themselves do not know the answer to your impertinent question or have decided to deliberately mislead you. It doesn't matter how many times you ask a particular question or how you weasel the wording the answer is still going to be the same.

I don't know or I ain't telling won't change no matter how many times you ask.

[Lans]

I'm not sure how extra actions help when the wizard is going first.

How is the wizard going first?

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken idea that your opinion is more important than anyone else's.

You want this discussion to favour the Wizard and so constantly ignore points that don't support your opinion, argue strict reading of anything non-wizard that might be a little debatable if it might threaten the Wizard and the loosest possible reading of anything you have convinced yourself makes the Wizard an unassailable God.

With regards CoP you are looking at the wrong numbers.

There is a 12% chance that the Gods themselves do not know the answer to your impertinent question or have decided to deliberately mislead you. It doesn't matter how many times you ask a particular question or how you weasel the wording the answer is still going to be the same.

I don't know or I ain't telling won't change no matter how many times you ask.

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong numbers, the odds of determining truth are even better.

In regards to the answer not changing, that isn't how it works. Unlike divination, which says:

As with augury, multiple divinations
about the same topic by the same caster
use the same dice result as the first
divination spell and yield the same answer
each time

Contact Other Plane does not have any similar statement. Every time you ask a question you may get a different answer. Even when the result ends up "Don't Know," it states that the entity "tells you it doesn't know," which is not the same as actually not knowing. It is only telling you so.

[BeholderSlayer]

How is the wizard going first?

By going more-firster. Contingencies.

[137beth]

Ok, so the answer will statistical. With multiple questions with varying answers you just estimate the true one (and it's likeliness) by assuming binomial distribution (you can assume some more complicated distribution to account for random answers). This means, that the wizard will prepare his spellslots for the situation (or situations) with the highest probability and he will keep a bunch of scrolls and limited-use items just in case of alternative scenarios. In the long run it will be the most cost-efficient method of keeping high security standards.

Yes. Earlier on, there was a claim that the wizard could gain 100% certainty. The point I was trying to make is that he cannot be certain, even if he is reasonably confident.
@beholder: read my posts more carefully. I assumed that you COULD ask the same question multiple times, AND get a different answer each time.

Now, your'e left with another problem. If you want to be nearly certain that you get the correct answer, you will have to ask the same question a lot in order to know. A 20th level wizard only gets 20+ a bunch of bonus uses of contact other plane each day. Now, if the question is "will I be attacked tomorrow", and the wizard uses all their high level spell slots to determine that the answer is "yes", they still don't know when or how they will be attacked the next day. This is why foresight was proposed before CoP--it tells you exactly when you will be attacked. The wizard will not be able to prepare for every possible attack using CoP alone, they will need foresight.

[Lans]

By going more-firster. Contingencies.

How is it going firster? What is triggering the contigency?

[crizh]

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong numbers, the odds of determining truth are even better.

In regards to the answer not changing, that isn't how it works. Unlike divination, which says:

Contact Other Plane does not have any similar statement. Every time you ask a question you may get a different answer. Even when the result ends up "Don't Know," it states that the entity "tells you it doesn't know," which is not the same as actually not knowing. It is only telling you so.

You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.

Again.

The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.

So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?

Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.

[Radar]

You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.

Again.

The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.

So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?

Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.

This actually can be slightly amended by asking a different deity for every iteration of a similar question (in that case, it might be even the same question).