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2010-09-26, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I've made a simple, illustrative build using the spymaster class that Ozymandias9 brought to my attention, which I believe could assassinate any wizard, without being built specifically to counter one, and is also useful against monsters, and playable at all levels:
Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Ghost-Faced Killer 7/Spymaster 7
1: Rogue 1
2: Rogue 2
3: Rogue 3
4: Fighter 1
5: Fighter 2
6: Rogue 4
7: Spymaster 1
8: Spymaster 2
9: Spymaster 3
10: Ghost-Faced Killer 1
11: Ghost-Faced Killer 2
12: Ghost-Faced Killer 3
13: Ghost-Faced Killer 4
14: Ghost-Faced Killer 5
15: Ghost-Faced Killer 6
16: Ghost-Faced Killer 7
17: Spymaster 4
18: Spymaster 5
19: Spymaster 6
20: Spymaster 7
Human: Improved Initiative
1: Skill Focus (Bluff)
3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Court Blade)
6: Blind Fight
9: Power Attack
12: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Darkstalker
18: Pierce Magical Protection
It can penetrate all magical defenses with Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and ghost-faced killer's Ghost Sight. It can kill most, if not all wizards in one round with a full attack. It can easily get a full attack off by being immune to divinations, and using Darkstalker-assisted Hide. So the plan is to walk up to the wizard, kill him while he's still flatfooted (can't use immediate actions), then walk away.
If you think it would help more, you could drop the ghost-faced killer levels and add in Hide in Plain Sight, wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness to see through superior invisibility. You could also get the spymaster capstone as early as level 12. I just thought this build was cooler .
Here are my damage calculations:
SpoilerWeapon:
+5 Elven Court Blade (1d10, 18-20/x2)
Binding (+1, casts Dimensional Anchor on-hit as a swift action for 10 minutes, 2/day, MIC)
Holy (+2, 2d6 extra damage against evil creatures, SRD) (use whatever applies to the wizard's alignment)
Magebane (+1, 2d6 extra damage against arcane spellcasters and creatures with arcane SLAs, +2 weapon enhancement against the same, MIC)
Vicious (+1, 2d6 extra damage, but 1d6 damage done to wielder, SRD)
Damage:
1d10 (base) + 7 (enhancement) + 6d6 (weapon abilities) + 6d6 (sneak attack) + 34 (power attack) + 10 (Strength) =
1d10 + 12d6 + 51 = 5.5 + 42 + 51 avg = 98.5 average damage per hit
Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, keeping Magebane: 84.5 average damage per hit
Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, if sneak attack is denied, and you don't use Power Attack because his AC is unrealistically high (the lowest amount you could possibly do): 29.5 average damage per hit
Activate belt of battle if necessary to easily take out foe in one round. 29.5 x 4 x 2 = 236, so all attacks don't need to hit, but probably will. Again, this is way too conservative of a number, but it is nearly 100% reliable, which is why I put it here.
So counter that. If any liberal interpretations are required to counter it, keep in mind that a liberal interpretation of Deep Cover (spymaster 7's ability) makes you immune to see invisibility and true seeing. So you could walk around throwing sticks at the wizard until he dies, and he couldn't really do anything in return. But I think that, even in a reasonable, non-TO game, in which the spymaster class is taken, the rogue has a big advantage over the wizard, possibly as much as a wizard has over a fighter.
For reference, the relevant line from Deep Cover reads as follows: "While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing related to her spymaster persona."
Edit: And from reading some more of the counters listed in this thread, you can remove all of the wizard's contingencies with a targeted scroll of disjunction. Neither of which (ridiculous contingencies or disjunction) would see play in a normal game.Last edited by Baron Corm; 2010-09-26 at 03:44 PM.
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2010-09-26, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Yet more twisting and turning to try and avoid the reality of the table in the PHB.
I'll state, yet again, that if you allow a re-roll every time the caster repeats the same stupid question the table becomes meaningless. Immediately.
Ask the same question 4 or 5 times and you are extremely unlikely to not get the truth the majority of the time.
The table clearly exists. Asking the same question over and over is therefore not going to get you a re-roll.Last edited by crizh; 2010-09-26 at 02:20 PM.
Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-26, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I still find it amusing that in all the discussion of abusing broken mechanics here, no one has addressed Diplomacy only a single mental state that it can cause.
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2010-09-26, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I'm getting a bit confused between this thread and the BG one but I'm pretty sure Diplomacy was dismissed because it's ultimate effect is [mind affecting] and it's considered best to consider both sides in such a scenario to be PC's.
Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-26, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
No, it doesn't. The chances of getting a true answer by asking a question twice are directly derived from the chances of getting a true answer by asking a question once; in other words, your chances of success are always derived from the table.
The results represented on the table might cease to be directly applicable if you ask the same question more than once, but the table never becomes meaningless, certainly not immediately.
Further, an argument from undesirable consequences is a logical fallacy. Arguing that the rules don't say something because that would make something else in the rules pointless isn't valid.
Foresight, Celerity, and a Contingency or two just in case they have a Contingency that triggers off Celerity.SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-09-26, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-26, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-26, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-26, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I can't be bothered to go dig out enough stat's to give you an accurate number but I figure after 5 questions the chances of having less than 3 correct answers is below 1%. I'd say that's pretty close to zero.
It's certainly a whole heck of a lot less than 12%. Which makes the table meaningless.
That last sentence sounds familiar. I think I might have used it before....
Fixed that for ya.Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-26, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-26, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Less than 1% is, indeed, very close to zero. It still is not zero. "Meaningless" means "without meaning"; it assuredly does not mean "with very little meaning."
Further, as I pointed out, the ability to get an answer that has a nearly 100% truth rate is derived directly from the statistics in the table. If the spell said "Use these numbers if the question is asked once, but just have a 100% success rate if the question is asked twice," then you would have an argument. But you don't, because asking the question twice merely increases the chance of receiving a correct answer based on the original probability.
So, we come back to the fact that 1>0. Close, but not equal.
Nothing in the table invalidates itself, and as I've exhaustively explained above, nothing in the spell description renders the table useless because the values of each successive asking of the same question are based on the original probabilities from the table.
Further, there's no reason to assume that your "fix" for the internal inconsistencies brought up by the table is the only way to go about things, or even the most sensible way. Assigning random chance to determine whether a god knows something is, as I've said before, completely nonsensical. It would make more sense to ignore the table completely than to abide unerringly by the original values it provides, regardless of repetition.
Of course, the rules are set up so that we don't have to resort to either of those extremes.SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-09-26, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-26, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-26, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Astral Projection. A Simulacrum of yourself plus a Permanent Telepathic Bond with it.
A wizard can interact without any problem, even when remaining in a secure location.
For day to day stuff and other activities that aren't likely to gain you experience; Simulacrum's are your best bet. Sure they are half your level, but that is still 10th level at level 20. More than enough to handle day to day affairs at court or in a city. When something more is needed your Astral Projection can arrive quickly and easily.
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2010-09-26, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the method of doing this. Could you be more specific? Also, what Jolly said. As far as being able to influence the Material while doing this...
If you find their astral projection, sever the silver cord, and it will kill the wizard himself as well as the projection. Otherwise treat as normal wizard. The simulacrum is not a real threat, having half of your class levels. This still leads to the scenario of the wizard just sitting around being non-threatening in his demiplane/"court". So what else?
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2010-09-26, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
The Astral Projection won't be going anywhere without all of the wizard defenses and a full collection of bodyguards. There are also very few things that can sever a silver cord, which is only visible and corporal on the Astral Plane.
The simulacrum is not a real threat, having half of your class levels. This still leads to the scenario of the wizard just sitting around being non-threatening in his demiplane/"court". So what else?
The only time that your Astral Projection actually shows up is when you need to personally take actions.
XP is gained by using your Gateraped solar to Wish a CR 20 monster/character into your trapped room where your Astral Projection has readied an action to cast Disjunction followed by a quickened Orb of death. Do that once a day and you gain a level every 13 days, do it 3-4 times per day and you gain a level per week.
If you need to deal with a threat/enemy in the real world then you simply have one of your Simulacrum take command of one of your armies of loyal followers. A dozen Solars with a dozen Great Wyrm Gold dragons supporting them will deal with most things quite well.
And then, if you somehow manage to sever the silver cord on the wizards Astral Projection, and have the DM rule that such a death can affect a body under a Temporal Stasis spell, then you don't even gain a round as his Contingent True Resurrection activates and he comes right back to life.
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2010-09-26, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-26, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I wasn't talking about a TO campaign, though. I was talking about a real one, with a Dungeon Master. Your strategies are all horribly inefficient compared to Pun-Pun, and would fly in a real campaign just as easily. Class and tier are meaningless in the situation you are describing, all you need is "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". No wizard required.
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2010-09-26, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Um, this is standard practice in my high level campaigns.
There is a reason that entire (20+ game) campaigns are devoted to the task of killing (permanently) a single level 20 wizard. It involves doing favors for gods, finding lost artifacts, occasionally messing with time, and exploring the planes; all of that to even get a chance to actually fight the BBEG (not win, just fight him). And that's with an entire party of similarly optimized characters (including both arcane and divine full casters).
And it is still DM fiat which gives them that chance.
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2010-09-26, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
So you just admitted yourself that a character whose best ability is to summon or become things that are better than himself (solars) is best relegated to a DMPC, because it breaches the spirit of the game to the point where it has no place in a campaign (on the PC side).
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2010-09-26, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
No, the PC's do the exact same thing. I'm saying that even with the PC's doing so, it still requires what amounts to DM fiat to give them a chance to win.
After level 17, you virtually never see any of the PC's real bodies and PC's virtually never permanently die. And the times they do are almost always because they 1) pissed off a god or 2) pissed off an Epic caster.
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2010-09-26, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Of course you can run a campaign however you'd like, but I feel that if you mentioned this in any other thread, it would have the tag (good luck getting this past your DM). At any rate, I have become convinced that wizards are not undefeatable gods outside the scope of a campaign that will allow (what would be generally seen as) broken combos. I have no particular desire to make a build that will beat a sarrukh or solar.
Last edited by Baron Corm; 2010-09-26 at 10:26 PM.
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2010-09-26, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
So wizards aren't undefeatable if you disallow wizards from doing the things that make them undefeatable.
I think we'd all be comfortable agreeing with that statement, but it doesn't say much about the capabilities of a wizard that isn't restrained by this hypothetical D. M. Everyman.SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-09-26, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Wizards are not unbeatable gods if the DM decides to use house rules to remove that quality from them.
Frankly, it doesn't really matter. By the time you are in high level play none of this matters over much.
Even a decently built level 20 Fighter can singlehandedly defeat the entire military of most nations. Running a nation or ruling the world is trivial. But so what? Your enemies do the exact same thing in other planes. You are either looking for a way to become a deity or doing something else suitably epic (as in attempting to change the tide of the Blood War, trying to assemble an entire set of artifacts, trying to learn mysteries of magic that lower level practitioners can't even conceive of, etc.).
Levels 1-3: Local level threats (orcs kidnapping a maiden, bandits on the local trail, etc.).
Levels 4-6: Regional level threats (a large group of orcs moving into the area, a bandit king raiding a village, kings guard, etc.).
Levels 7-10: National level threats (invading army, court wizard, guild leader, etc.).
Levels 11-14: World level threats (demon portals, raiding a dragons lair, traveling to other planes, etc.).
Levels 15-17: Planar level threats.
Levels 18-20: Multiplanar threats
Levels 21+: Godhood
That's generally how things work in D&D, balance wise. After about 14th-15th level most of the locals just don't matter. Your (or you and your party) are more than a match for even the more powerful nations on your own. Your party has more wealth regularly on hand than the national treasury. By 17th level, laws simply don't apply. You do what you will and the locals have as much impact as gnats, on your own you can raise single villages to domination over entire continents or bring world spanning empires down to nothing in a few months.
By 20th level, less than a handful of individuals or creatures on the material plane even matter.
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So who really cares if the party are unkillable demigods in high level play? It does nothing to prevent you from playing games or having fun. Perhaps an epic wizard or god has rules against out right, open, conflict between high level characters. You counter the actions of another faction in the Epic Wizard's court, perhaps under a given set of rules.
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2010-09-26, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
If these are the pretenses we are operating under, then the very first reply in this thread answers the question. I think the only reason that the thread reached 15 pages is because the pretenses weren't well-defined enough. I apologize for assuming that mine were "right", but they were based on what I thought the OP was asking for. It's really up to him (and anyone who is asking themselves this question) to decide which of the answers given is right.
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2010-09-26, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Admittedly, ET, you're not exactly the norm, but pretty far towards the end of the bell curve in terms of average campaign power and optimization levels.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2010-09-26, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-26, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
All I have to say is, thank you, Tippy.
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2010-09-27, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-09-27, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
If I read this right, having beholderslayer saying the same thing over and over again means nothing. But Emperor Tippy`s word means he can finish this in one page?
No offense to you Tippy, but I feel like I want to scream. I haven`t felt nerd rage in a while, damn!