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  1. - Top - End - #511

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme View Post
    Yeah, but against a multiple person party, the wizard is losing his actions. Of course, there are still contingencies to deal with, but it's something to consider.
    Ah, I didn't realize this had become "can a multiple person party kill a wizard."

  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    Ah, I didn't realize this had become "can a multiple person party kill a wizard."
    I just saw that a team had been submitted earlier, and, as it can often be the goal of a campaign to kill a wizard, I thought it would be considered acceptable. Plus, how is this different than using cohorts or followers?
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  3. - Top - End - #513

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme View Post
    I just saw that a team had been submitted earlier, and, as it can often be the goal of a campaign to kill a wizard, I thought it would be considered acceptable. Plus, how is this different than using cohorts or followers?
    I suppose it isn't.

    Any takers on getting past the 50 mile mindsight and anticipate teleport?

  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Possibly a sorcerer would have some spells that disrupt divination.
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    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If Orcus was a nesting doll, that would certainly make the whole thing work smoother. When you cast a level 1 summoning spell, you summon the little Orcus from the middle, but when you cast Gate, you get the really big Orcus that holds all the small Orcuses.

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  5. - Top - End - #515

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Possibly a sorcerer would have some spells that disrupt divination.
    Anticipate Teleportation, and Mindsight is not a divination.

  6. - Top - End - #516
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    Any takers on getting past the 50 mile mindsight and anticipate teleport?
    Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
    Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
    Step 3: Return to the material plane.

    Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  7. - Top - End - #517
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
    Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
    Step 3: Return to the material plane.

    Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.
    Well, see invisibility should cover this, but if the character is good at stealth, not so much.
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  8. - Top - End - #518
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme View Post
    Well, see invisibility should cover this, but if the character is good at stealth, not so much.
    Superior Invisibility, you need True Seeing. Which depending upon rules interpretation, Mind Blank may well make worthless.

    And even then, you have bypassed Mindsight.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    So you teleport outside the range of his Greater Anticipate Teleportation. You are now locked in the initiative war. However since Foresight just triggered I think using your action lets the Wizard cast Celerity.

  10. - Top - End - #520

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
    Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
    Step 3: Return to the material plane.

    Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.
    Well done, but then it comes to initiative war/rocket tag anyway.

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    So you teleport outside the range of his Greater Anticipate Teleportation. You are now locked in the initiative war. However since Foresight just triggered I think using your action lets the Wizard cast Celerity.
    Actually there are a few different things in play.
    1) Mindsight isn't transdimensional meaning it can't find an Ethereal creature.
    2) Superior Invisibility+Mind Blank (by a strict reading of the RAW) can't be penetrated by anything except Mindsight, so being on the Ethereal plane your target has no way at all to find or detect you.
    3) You can attack with a transdimensional spell (I prefer using a Transdimensional Orb of Death); getting a surprise round unless the enemy has foresight up.
    4) In the event that the target doesn't die on your first attack, Celerity comes into play and as your target is still flat footed they can't use any of the tricks to break into a celerity loop. Now you can either go the time stop route or just attack with another Orb of Death.
    5) Even leaving aside transdimensional spell, you can still cast Time Stop while ethereal and then shift back to the material plane before readying an action to attack your target with an Orb of Death (or whatever you use to do damage).

    The whole point of the Mindsight+Greater Anticipate Teleport is to stop individuals from sneaking up on you, but there are still ways around that.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  12. - Top - End - #522

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Actually there are a few different things in play.
    1) Mindsight isn't transdimensional meaning it can't find an Ethereal creature.
    2) Superior Invisibility+Mind Blank (by a strict reading of the RAW) can't be penetrated by anything except Mindsight, so being on the Ethereal plane your target has no way at all to find or detect you.
    3) You can attack with a transdimensional spell (I prefer using a Transdimensional Orb of Death); getting a surprise round unless the enemy has foresight up.
    4) In the event that the target doesn't die on your first attack, Celerity comes into play and as your target is still flat footed they can't use any of the tricks to break into a celerity loop. Now you can either go the time stop route or just attack with another Orb of Death.
    5) Even leaving aside transdimensional spell, you can still cast Time Stop while ethereal and then shift back to the material plane before readying an action to attack your target with an Orb of Death (or whatever you use to do damage).

    The whole point of the Mindsight+Greater Anticipate Teleport is to stop individuals from sneaking up on you, but there are still ways around that.
    If the target wizard is shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, they get to act in the surprise round, too. Then it's initiative war again.

    EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?
    Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-29 at 10:12 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #523
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    If the target wizard is shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, they get to act in the surprise round, too. Then it's initiative war again.
    True, it's actually first a Celerity war and then it's an initiative war.

    Although that is what starting with a Time Stop is for. Time Stop plus a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding filled with Quintessence is enough to capture/disable anything that you can fit in the container.

    EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?
    The rules aren't really clear. There are prison planes with very specific entry requirements, and planes that treat individuals differently (granted most of those are godly realms); but whether or not you can just outright bar any entry to anyone by any means unless you give them specific permission (or they are a specific individual) is iffy.

    Your best bet for doing something like that is probably to make use of nested demiplanes that can only be entered from a portal on another demiplane. You can potentially create a maze of hundreds of interconnected planes with only a single specific route through to your final plane. One good trick is to create a stasis plane (1 round is a hundred thousand years to the rest of the universe) that applies to everyone but you. When your enemies come to get you, you have a very long time to prepare to meet them.

    Note that their is nothing stopping you from making a strongly negatively (or positively) aligned, dead magic plane with but two 5 foot squares that aren't filled with solid adamantium (right infront of the entry and exit portals) where you are the only one capable of using magic.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    If you could guarantee that the wizard will stay in Dire Tortoise form, and won't have any minion spotters with access to mindsight, you could just cast Hide from Animals.

    A alternative way, with a slightly liberal way of interpreting RAW, is to pick up a level of hellbreaker for Telephatic Static.

  15. - Top - End - #525
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?
    Why not just use wish to cast forbiddance? Or better yet, gate in something to use wish for you or use shadow conjurations. It might be slightly more pricey, but it is undeniably legal and accomplishes the same thing.

    EDIT: Or do what Tippy suggested, as it sounds way more fun.
    Last edited by ArcanistSupreme; 2010-09-29 at 10:42 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #526
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme View Post
    Why not just use wish to cast forbiddance? Or better yet, gate in something to use wish for you or use shadow conjurations. It might be slightly more pricey, but it is undeniably legal and accomplishes the same thing.

    EDIT: Or do what Tippy suggested, as it sounds way more fun.
    I'm unsure, but I think that is why Tippy = Win.

  17. - Top - End - #527

    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    If you could guarantee that the wizard will stay in Dire Tortoise form, and won't have any minion spotters with access to mindsight, you could just cast Hide from Animals.

    A alternative way, with a slightly liberal way of interpreting RAW, is to pick up a level of hellbreaker for Telephatic Static.
    The whole point is that the pseudodragon familiar has 50 mile mindsight, not the wizard. Hide from Animals won't work.

  18. - Top - End - #528
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    The whole point is that the pseudodragon familiar has 50 mile mindsight, not the wizard. Hide from Animals won't work.
    Can you remind me how the pseudodragon familiar is getting a feat other than the ones in the MM?

    Also, are people sure that winning initiative is the way to go? Why not just use a rocket-proof or rocket resistant build?

    Basically, I'm unclear as to why being able to see the attacker 50 miles away is useful. He's no more obvious as an attacker than anyone else within 50 miles. Is this wizard confined to wilderness areas? Is there some reason you can't just disguise yourself?

    Finally, are we assuming we have to catch the wizard? Some of these defences involve blowing quite a few high level spell slots just to escape, or to present powerful barriers that last for only a small portion of the day. The example of a foresighted wizard casting time stop, gating in multiple gold dragons, and then teleporting away, is blowing his spell slots on a threat he hasn't even identifed as serious.

  19. - Top - End - #529
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    The whole point is that the pseudodragon familiar has 50 mile mindsight, not the wizard. Hide from Animals won't work.
    Well guess then Hellbreaker 1 dip it is. Too bad its not a very friendly dip. Though it nets you a sort of hide in plain sight as well. So it can be worth it if you also get darkstalker.

    Too bad the level 4 feature stowaway is not very reliable, otherwise that would be perfect for following the teleporting wizard around.

  20. - Top - End - #530
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I'm getting more and more convinced that the way to beat a tier 1 caster is not to build a character that wins rocket tag, but to build a character with some kind of anti-magic capability that has a reasonable grapple, is very manuovreable, and can take a rocket.

  21. - Top - End - #531
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Reach+Mage Slayer+Improved Trip+Combat Reflexes Mage Slayer prevents the Tier 1 from casting on the defensive, Reach+Trip prevents him from escaping out of your threatened area. Feats such as great cleave lets you sweep away his mirror images in a single attack, while blind fight with pierce magical concealment can help you eliminate displacement.

    Remembering that your in a party of adventurers and cooperating to defeat the enemy is more effective then trying to do it yourself.

  22. - Top - End - #532
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Here's a build that I'd used previously, and I think it worked well...

    Elf
    1-5 Duskblade (PHB2)
    1: Point Blank Shot
    3: Precise Shot
    6 Abjurant Champion
    6: Weapon Focus: Longbow
    7-16 Arcane Archer
    9: Extra Spell: Mage Armor
    12: Extra Spell: Shield
    15: Rapid Shot
    17-20 Abjurant Champion
    18: Manyshot

    The build was VERY not optimized, but here's how it worked out:
    The bow I was using had three d6 elementals on it, used blade of blood, followed by true strike, activated Arcane Boost for +6 damage then ambushed with a manyshot. The damage total was something around 1d8+[5enh]+[6insight]+[1compotence(Greater Bracers of Archery)]+[4STRComposite]+[3d6Bladeofblood]+[3d6 energy] four times ended up doing somewhere around 175 HP... [minus 40 for what little damage mitigation the wizard actually had up]
    Of course my victory was due to the fact that I knew that wizard was coming a minute before the wizard knew I was there, and he only had around 120 HP, and only had minimal DR and resistances up

  23. - Top - End - #533
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Reach+Mage Slayer+Improved Trip+Combat Reflexes Mage Slayer prevents the Tier 1 from casting on the defensive, Reach+Trip prevents him from escaping out of your threatened area. Feats such as great cleave lets you sweep away his mirror images in a single attack, while blind fight with pierce magical concealment can help you eliminate displacement.

    Remembering that your in a party of adventurers and cooperating to defeat the enemy is more effective then trying to do it yourself.
    Yeah, but he goes first (assuming the dire tortoise wizard that is being discussed), and as you are flat-footed before you act, you don't threaten him and thus he can cast however he wants.

    EDIT: @The above build: Sadly, both protection from arrows and wind wall completely shut you down, and both are low-level spells.
    Last edited by ArcanistSupreme; 2010-10-02 at 07:09 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #534
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Yeah, but he goes first (assuming the dire tortoise wizard that is being discussed), and as you are flat-footed before you act, you don't threaten him and thus he can cast however he wants.

    EDIT: @The above build: Sadly, both protection from arrows and wind wall completely shut you down, and both are low-level spells.
    Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

    For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.

  25. - Top - End - #535
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

    For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.
    [/facepalm] That's what I get for just assuming I know the rules. Well, the melee build still has to get close to the wizard in question, and there is nothing about the archery build that stops the wizard from going first or casting spells.

    That is a nice melee build once/if it can get close to the wizard.
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  26. - Top - End - #536
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

    For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.
    Arrows made of force are still arrows.

  27. - Top - End - #537
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Actually they are not; the text of the force weapon property explicitly states that it turns shot to a force attack.

  28. - Top - End - #538
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    Actually they are not; the text of the force weapon property explicitly states that it turns shot to a force attack.
    Which can still be an arrow. Or perhaps I am missing something and you can thus present rules stating just what a force attack is including that it can not ever be an arrow.
    Last edited by olentu; 2010-10-02 at 04:29 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #539
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him. Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.

  30. - Top - End - #540
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him. Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.
    Well that does not make it less wrong. However you do have the point that it would be better to keep things on track and only be bothered to counter incorrectness when it is not irrelevant. I suppose I shall leave it at that until circumstances change.

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