Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Togo]

It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him.

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.

What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

[olentu]

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.



What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

Oh no has no wizard ever had the foresight to make a spell that would allow one to change ones shape as some sort of a contingency plan.

Seriously a flying dragon guarded fortress. Who would waste their money on that.

Also you should probably read the duration line on the gate spell.

[elonin]

I don't think there was a requirement about being level one, so that may still count.

Stab him while he is sleeping? That way a rogue can kill a wizard. That and crazier things have happened in LARP games.

I've also had a wizard of mine killed by my own laziness. He followed his group into a room then even though he had permanent arcane sight up failed to see the invisible rogue. Horrible dm for not telling me about he man sized illusion magic and then walking the rogue right up in front of me and allowing sneak dice.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

You still have to get close to the wizard.

EDIT:

Stab him while he is sleeping? That way a rogue can kill a wizard.

A lot of other people have suggested this. Read the rest of the thread to find out why this does not work.

[BeholderSlayer]

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

No, he won't, because since they both go in the surprise round initiative is rolled. The wizard has something like +40 initiative. Then the MoMF dies.

[Togo]

Oh no has no wizard ever had the foresight to make a spell that would allow one to change ones shape as some sort of a contingency plan.

That was part of Myth' plan, turning into a solar. I don't see how that helps.

Seriously a flying dragon guarded fortress. Who would waste their money on that.

It's one of the more famous tactics on the optimisation boards. I can't say I thought much of it either.

Also you should probably read the duration line on the gate spell.

Good point, the calling variation isn't usefully enough time to slip through. Still, routinely annoying intelligent CR 40 is not a good long-term strategy.

[Togo]

No, he won't, because since they both go in the surprise round initiative is rolled. The wizard has something like +40 initiative. Then the MoMF dies.

At, getting a plus 40 initiative wasn't part of what you wrote. That's yet more spell slots, I presume? even then, I'd love to know how you got there.

You did get there, right? You're not just assuming it's possible and thus that you've 'somehow' done it?

And how is the wizard going in the surprise round? Remember, I'm attacking him, so is he a Dire tortoise all the time?

I'm happy to join the initiative race and try and win it. I don't think I will, but the spells you invest in making sure I can't can't be used for anything else. I'm also happy to go the rocket resist route and see if you actually can kill my character in a single standard action. I'm thinking not. Particularly not when you're in the form of a creature that can't reasonably go around holding onto to a metamagic rod and keeping it free and available all the time.

It's the practicalities that keep the wizard weaker than it is on paper.

[Togo]

You still have to get close to the wizard.

EDIT:

A lot of other people have suggested this. Read the rest of the thread to find out why this does not work.

The first suggestion was that he spent his entire life locked in a demiplane created by the Genesis spell. That one got fairly thoroughly flattened by a poster pointing out that there is nothing in the spell description that allows the demiplane to be locked or restricted to the extent needed for the tactic to work. You can argue that the spell doesn't say that you can't create a demiplane that just so happens to be impregnable, since some demi-planes are largely impregnable, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

The second was the high level wizards don't need to sleep. Which may be true, but does nothing to change the requirement of resting for 8 hours. Since none of the tactics so far presented provide 24/7 coverage, sneaking in and killing him in the of hours remains a viable tactic.

In the absence of a reliable RAW method of doing without sleep, you're rather diverging from the OP, which was a tier 1 caster, not a particular Tier 1 caster that has had certain game events happen to him, however reasonable those events might be.

[olentu]

That was part of Myth' plan, turning into a solar. I don't see how that helps.



It's one of the more famous tactics on the optimisation boards.



Good point, the calling variation isn't usefully enough time to slip through. Still, routinely annoying intelligent CR 40 is not a good long-term strategy.

Try reading it again. I would say more but that would ruin the joke.

A famously silly tactic. Though I am assuming that the fortress is going to be flying around where people can see as it is apparently an easy thing to just walk away from it and come back later.


It depends but to avoid derailing this thread into a morass of opinions on how a DM should run things it is probably best not gotten into.



Edit: By the by though it is not my argument I shall get involved this time since I think I can divine the intent but don't take my word for it. So far as I remember it is not that rules are needed to do without sleep rather that there is no rule saying one must sleep only that they can.

[Togo]

Try reading it again. I would say more but that would ruin the joke.

Still not getting it.

A famously silly tactic. Though I am assuming that the fortress is going to be flying around where people can see as it is apparently an easy thing to just walk away from it and come back later.

I think the point is that it appears in the surprise round, as part of a Dire tortoise time stop reaction. It is pretty silly though.

Edit: By the by though it is not my argument I shall get involved this time since I think I can divine the intent but don't take my word for it. So far as I remember it is not that rules are needed to do without sleep rather that there is no rule saying one must sleep only that they can.

Sure, but I'm not convinced that you need sleep. Just catch him while he's learing his day's spells from his spellbook.

[olentu]

Still not getting it.



I think the point is that it appears in the surprise round, as part of a Dire tortoise time stop reaction. It is pretty silly though.



Sure, but I'm not convinced that you need sleep. Just catch him while he's learing his day's spells from his spellbook.

Well I still don't want to ruin it but the answer seems to be the same as what several others are discussing so you will get the answer in the end.


Er if the wizard can arrange for a castle to appear in the surprise round I think he could arrange for himself to just leave in the surprise round. That makes the castle rather superfluous. I suppose whoever came up with the plan had some other stuff related to it but that appears to have been lost in the translation.


Yeah I am going to let this one drop since I was just attempting to clarify I would not wish to usurp the argument from its creator.

[Radar]

As for the private demiplane: Forbiddance will block anyone from entering this demiplane - probably even a Silver Key.

Here's the trick to not be jailed there yourself: leave a certain spot out of the Forbiddance area and cover it with a big rock, when you are inside or even better set up a Forcecage and Antimagic Field traps there (Anticipate Teleport might be a good idea as well). Have some loyal minions there to either put the traps on hold, when you go back from adventuring or bail you out if you had no time to tell them. Idealy you never leave your demiplane anyway, since there are Simulacra and Astral Projection is just that good. So anyone wanting to break into yout extraplanar stronghold would have to anticipate the moment, when you send someone out of your demiplane or the moment, when one of your simulacra or other minions returns. The thing is, the wizard chooses the moment himself, so he will be prepared and on his own turf.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The first suggestion was that he spent his entire life locked in a demiplane created by the Genesis spell. That one got fairly thoroughly flattened by a poster pointing out that there is nothing in the spell description that allows the demiplane to be locked or restricted to the extent needed for the tactic to work. You can argue that the spell doesn't say that you can't create a demiplane that just so happens to be impregnable, since some demi-planes are largely impregnable, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

Se above post. Also look at Tippy's earlier post concerning nested demiplanes.

The second was the high level wizards don't need to sleep. Which may be true, but does nothing to change the requirement of resting for 8 hours. Since none of the tactics so far presented provide 24/7 coverage, sneaking in and killing him in the of hours remains a viable tactic.

In the absence of a reliable RAW method of doing without sleep, you're rather diverging from the OP, which was a tier 1 caster, not a particular Tier 1 caster that has had certain game events happen to him, however reasonable those events might be.

At no point did I say that they did not need sleep or rest; I was simply pointing out that you face most of the same obstacles that you would when he is awake. Alarm-type spells, minions (summoned or constructed), and divinations are all still in play while he sleeps. Even discounting the demiplanes, you'll need to take ten levels in a PrC just to get inside a magnificent mansion spell. That is a steep investment that probably won't increase your chances of beating the wizard once you can actually find him.

This may all seem ridiculous, but you need to look at it from a roleplaying standpoint in addition to a mechanical one. If a wizard knows that somebody is out to kill him (and an Int 27+ person should be able to figure out that pissing other people off will make him a target) and he wants to stay alive (or undead), then it makes sense that he (having 27+ Int and lots of Knowledge skills) would be able to come up with a really good method of avoiding unwanted guests.

[Togo]

Se above post.

Ok, based on the above post, there isn't any particular bar to getting into the plane except that the access point is covered by a trap, a forcecage or 'a big rock'. All of which are fairly easy to get past.

Just to clarify, can you see how the claim has gone from 'there is no way in' to 'there is a way in but it's guarded by a big rock'?

What if someone puts their own forbiddence over the entrace from the outside? Aren't you trapped?

Also look at Tippy's earlier post concerning nested demiplanes.

Sorry, I couldn't find the right post. It sounds like an interesting idea though.

At no point did I say that they did not need sleep or rest; I was simply pointing out that you face most of the same obstacles that you would when he is awake. Alarm-type spells, minions (summoned or constructed), and divinations are all still in play while he sleeps.

True. I never made great claims for attacking while sleeping either. The advantage to attacking during the rest period is that it messes up the spell slot economy. Any spell you use during such a period can not be regained unless yet more rest is taken. Moreover if you can't assume the caster is safe at some times during the day, then you need to extend the buffs you're relying on even more, and dedicate even more spells per day to maintaining a routine defense.

Even discounting the demiplanes, you'll need to take ten levels in a PrC just to get inside a magnificent mansion spell. That is a steep investment that probably won't increase your chances of beating the wizard once you can actually find him.

You don't go into a magnificent mansion, you pop the entrance into a portable hole, chuck a bag of holding in after it, and suck the entire extra-dimensional space out of known space.

Or just ambush him when he comes out.

This may all seem ridiculous, but you need to look at it from a roleplaying standpoint in addition to a mechanical one. If a wizard knows that somebody is out to kill him (and an Int 27+ person should be able to figure out that pissing other people off will make him a target) and he wants to stay alive (or undead), then it makes sense that he (having 27+ Int and lots of Knowledge skills) would be able to come up with a really good method of avoiding unwanted guests.

Sure, but from the same roleplaying standpoint, most people wanting to kill a level 20 character are going to fail. You're positing that a tier 1 caster, by definition of the type of class he is, would have a series of precautions up as routine that would not only make a paranoid giggle, but would seriously cut back on his day-to-day capabilities. This guy is, by my calculations, using most of his wealth per level, most of his 9th and 8th level spell slots, and most of his time every day, just to prove that he's sufficiently powerful enough that he doesn't need to worry about people trying to kill him. Even then, he's not really made it. Is that even vaguely plausible, from a role-playing standpoint, for not just a particular tier 1 caster, but for tier 1 casters in general?

I mean let's face it, if you played this guy as a member of an adventuring party, you'd be well under par. Most wizards run out spells sooner or later, and most adventurers make themselves vulnerable regularly in the course of their adventures. Yes, if you spend all your character's resources on setting up defences and counter-measures, then you'll be much safer than if you don't. But tier 1 casters don't necessarily do this, and certainly don't do it the extent that you describe, because that diverts resources away from being active and useful in the campaign world.

My wife played a spymaster who couldn't be detected, couldn't be divined for, and had a safe haven where she rested as a stone, inside another stone, inside an antimagic sphere. That doesn't mean all spymasters are equally hard to kill.

[Hackulator]

One big problem in this thread is, someone comes up with a way to beat a tier 1 caster, and someone else says "oh but he could be doing this to stop that." He could be, but he can't be doing everything to stop every idea in here. A wizard can counter anything, but he can't counter everything.

Also antimagic shackles? Something with reach, mage slayer, and a lot of hide?

But yeah, if you wizard is a psychotic paranoid who doesn't care about any sort of enjoyable life and all he does all day long is make sure he's safe, you probably can't kill him. Hell, you probably have no idea he even exists since he's always invisible and teleporting and sending summoned or created crap to do his bidding.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Ok, based on the above post, there isn't any particular bar to getting into the plane except that the access point is covered by a trap, a forcecage or 'a big rock'. All of which are fairly easy to get past.

That depends largely upon the creativity of the trap. What about a few permanent prismatic walls over the entrance? What if these are in turn surrounded by permanent walls of force? And I'm sure other people could come up with something better.

Just to clarify, can you see how the claim has gone from 'there is no way in' to 'there is a way in but it's guarded by a big rock'?

What if someone puts their own forbiddence over the entrace from the outside? Aren't you trapped?

To the first part, the rock is just a basic deterrent. To the second, sadly, I'm not really sure how that works. My knowledge of demiplanes is admittedly limited (mostly to what has been said on this thread), and the SRD is really vague on all of that.

Sorry, I couldn't find the right post. It sounds like an interesting idea though.

Here it is:

Spoiler

Show

Your best bet for doing something like that is probably to make use of nested demiplanes that can only be entered from a portal on another demiplane. You can potentially create a maze of hundreds of interconnected planes with only a single specific route through to your final plane. One good trick is to create a stasis plane (1 round is a hundred thousand years to the rest of the universe) that applies to everyone but you. When your enemies come to get you, you have a very long time to prepare to meet them.

Note that their is nothing stopping you from making a strongly negatively (or positively) aligned, dead magic plane with but two 5 foot squares that aren't filled with solid adamantium (right infront of the entry and exit portals) where you are the only one capable of using magic.

True. I never made great claims for attacking while sleeping either. The advantage to attacking during the rest period is that it messes up the spell slot economy. Any spell you use during such a period can not be regained unless yet more rest is taken. Moreover if you can't assume the caster is safe at some times during the day, then you need to extend the buffs you're relying on even more, and dedicate even more spells per day to maintaining a routine defense.

A simple alarm spell or cheap item that duplicates the effect works wonders, and don't forget that your familiar can also serve as an incredibly effective lookout. Given that a wizard would probably snooze at home on his demiplane, it would be fairly simple to rig some wards, traps, and alarms over the entrance/exit area.

You don't go into a magnificent mansion, you pop the entrance into a portable hole, chuck a bag of holding in after it, and suck the entire extra-dimensional space out of known space.

Or just ambush him when he comes out.

I'm pretty sure that you can't put the entrance to an extradimensional space inside a portable hole. You could put the portable hole outside the entrance, and hope he falls into it, I guess (assuming no overland flight). Even if it did work, the wizard ends up in the astral plane, which isn't really that big a deal.

As for ambushing, you still have to deal with extended foresight and dire tortoise.

Stuff about spell slots.

A high-level wizard can usually finish up his adventuring day in an incredibly short amount of time. Thus, he only needs to expend a few spell slots one things such as foresight and mind blank before he pops home to his comfy magnificent mansion in his demiplane. Even as part of a party, he can just bring his buddies home with him, and then he also has other high-level adventurers watching his back. I think you just made it harder, if anything.

[The Shadowmind]

So provided the wizard still has the sleep, then my PsiWar, Factotum, Shadowcaster/Beguiler+Spell thief+Clockwork horror horde, has had the best chance to work?

[ArcanistSupreme]

So provided the wizard still has the sleep, then my PsiWar, Factotum, Shadowcaster/Beguiler+Spell thief+Clockwork horror horde, has had the best chance to work?

Quite probably. My experience with shadowcasting and psionics are even more limited than my understanding of the genesis spell, so I let others figure this one out.

I think it would be fun to see some opt-fu go on and run a one-shot where the goal was to kill this wizard.

[Togo]

Quite probably. My experience with shadowcasting and psionics are even more limited than my understanding of the genesis spell, so I let others figure this one out.

I think it would be fun to see some opt-fu go on and run a one-shot where the goal was to kill this wizard.

I'd be up for that.

[Earthwalker]

With the level of paranoia this lvl 20 wizard seems to be demonstrating (one contingency with 20 crafted ones as back up, his own demi plane he traps and has summoned creatures to watch contstantly, premenant spells to keep himself safe… etc)

For my entry I present a group of lvl 5 adventurers. A bard, fighter, thief, sorc and cleric. They get hired to start and confirm rumors in the world. As a small confidence team they get involved in crafting small cons fooling people into believing facts about magic that simply aren’t true. It takes work but they are usualy messing with wizards only a few levels above them, making it appear spells are going crazy then spreading the rumors.

Simple summonings that turn on their masters. Rope tricks and Mansions getting flung into the void with the casters never returning.

Now the plan here is simple just to drive the wizard in question over the edge, from the sounds of things he is already acting as nutty as a fruit cake.
Given enough time and effort making him more paranoid, the next step is getting him to trust the group. If they come up with potions that make the magic safe again how long before this lvl 20 is killing them to get the potions, or maybe even buying them off them.

Clearly my rules fu is very poor, but surly you can set up a con like this and hopfully get the wizard to start doubting his spells.

[Myth]

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.



What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh. He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight. He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later. He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also). If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

[ArcanistSupreme]

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh. He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight. He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later. He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also). If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

Would you be willing to stat up your Wizard and his demiplane(s) and then have people take it on over in the PbP forum?

[Tehnar]

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh. He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight. He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later. He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also). If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc.

[Myth]

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects.

Disjunction.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all.

Why not? Last time I checked non-caster classes can't make will saves reliably vs 9th level spells.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day.

Or just kill him slower with lower level spells like Unluck, Cloudkull, Shivering Touch, Irresistable Dance, Touch of Idiocy, Ray of Stupidity, so on and so forth. And he can say "No" to your attacks with Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Ironguard, Indomitably and Shapechanging into things you can't kill with your current gear because of their type or DR or regen or whatever.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc.

Aye, i've already said this to be within the limits of reason and RAI.


I could stat up a level 20 Wizard with PrCs etc. but it wold be hypocritical of me, as i asked for Incantatrix advice but a few months ago. There are far better players here then myself who would do a far better job at optimizing/spell selection and perhaps combat as well. If no one else steps up i'll do it though.

[Eldariel]

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc.

Generally Dispels make that a non-issue (just simple chained dispel to go through all the target's items and constant buffs; it's hard to get 50 Touch AC without magic items or magical buffs), or Shapechange (it's easy to get +70 to hit with buff stacking if you really care).

Not to mention stuff like Maw of Chaos that hits and deals lots of damage, no questions asked. Simple Time Stop > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos (with Rod) is ~360 points of damage that can't be stopped without invulnerability comboes. Trust me, we had a fight between Mage and 3 Mage Slayers long ago; I was playing a Mage Slayer and that's more or less what I died to. Can't interrupt actions during Time Stop. And yes, we had our defenses covered.

[Radar]

(...)

I find it unlikely. All the wizards in the world have the ability to test the magic (or ask the deities - directly or through some friendly cleric), so such a ploy might be night impossible to pull off. Secondly, if you actually manage to fool the wizard and make him want your potion, he can just scry & steal it (divination followed by Wish spell to teleport an object). He might even Wish directly for such a potion - it would be well within the "safe usage" boundaries.

Imagine a group of people trying to fool all scientists in the world, that the gravity is beginning to be unreliable.

[Earthwalker]

I find it unlikely. All the wizards in the world have the ability to test the magic (or ask the deities - directly or through some friendly cleric), so such a ploy might be night impossible to pull off. Secondly, if you actually manage to fool the wizard and make him want your potion, he can just scry & steal it (divination followed by Wish spell to teleport an object). He might even Wish directly for such a potion - it would be well within the "safe usage" boundaries.

Imagine a group of people trying to fool all scientists in the world, that the gravity is beginning to be unreliable.

I see what you are saying. I was hoping that the amount of preperation and how much time and effort this wizard seems to put into his safety that he appears to be close to the edge and it wouldn't take much to push him over.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I see what you are saying. I was hoping that the amount of preperation and how much time and effort this wizard seems to put into his safety that he appears to be close to the edge and it wouldn't take much to push him over.

It would be difficult to convince him that his magic is failing when his own constant (and successful) uses of magic are the thing keeping him alive. He might be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

[Earthwalker]

It would be difficult to convince him that his magic is failing when his own constant (and successful) uses of magic are the thing keeping him alive. He might be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

Yep it would be difficult I was trying to think of a way not involving lots of rules I don't know and that might make a good campaign for some players running cons.

Of course in real life and DnD you can be as clever as you like that doesn't mean you can't be fooled or conned. In real life plenty of clever people have personality weaknesses. In DnD 40 int doesnt help against being conned if you have 12 wis and no sense motive.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Yep it would be difficult I was trying to think of a way not involving lots of rules I don't know and that might make a good campaign for some players running cons.

Of course in real life and DnD you can be as clever as you like that doesn't mean you can't be fooled or conned. In real life plenty of clever people have personality weaknesses. In DnD 40 int doesnt help against being conned if you have 12 wis and no sense motive.

But when the success of the con hinges entirely on somebody essentially saying, "Hey, despite what years of empirical evidence telling you otherwise, your magic doesn't work. Because we figured it out, you can trust us. Here, drink this potion that totally isn't poison. Oh, and don't bother using any of your spells to check if we're lying or not, because they don't work, remember?" and the wizard believing it, I think your con needs a little bit of work.