Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Drascin]

Fact of the matter is, for anything you can do, the caster is able to have a counter - there are spells for everything. Yes, even that. Yes, that too.

But, thankfully, it's very rare that he can have all of them at the same time, and that he will never make a little mistake - casters are still human, after all (or elves, or whatever). Your only real chance is to find this particular guy's Achilles' Heel and exploit it. It's less going to be a straight up battle and more a cat and mouse game - though one where the mouse has an AK-47, so it behooves the cat to not pounce recklessly!

[Eldan]

The problem with poison is that Hero's Feast is only a level 6 spell and makes you immune to poison all day. Now, sure, it's not a wizard spell, but wizards can get around that. They could buy an item of it, or just have a party member or follower cast it.

[Eldariel]

Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
From the SRD: emphasis mine

Spoiler

Show

This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.

any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

...unfortunately immunity to Stunning is quite easy to come by. And AMFs tend to fall to contingencies. A lot. Also, Ex Hide in Plain Sights are always limited as to where they can be used; generally they're pretty worthless in the sky which is where you'll usually find high level Wizards.

[The Glyphstone]

Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself?

Sure it does, I forgot to mention the "spend your obscene WBL on Time Travel magic" step 1 of the plan. Step 4 is Profit.

But, thankfully, it's very rare that he can have all of them at the same time, and that he will never make a little mistake - casters are still human, after all (or elves, or whatever). Your only real chance is to find this particular guy's Achilles' Heel and exploit it. It's less going to be a straight up battle and more a cat and mouse game - though one where the mouse has an AK-47, so it behooves the cat to not pounce recklessly!

I think it's more the other way round. Cat-and-mouse, but the cat has body armor, a force field, rocket boots, and shoulder-mounted laser cannons. The mouse's only hope is either catch the cat in the one tiny gap in his armor, or simply have enough money in his bank account to buy an armor-piercing-force-field-breaking-rocket-boot-homing-laser-cannon-dodging missile.

[137beth]

At very low levels (level 1), it isn't all that hard to do with a fighter. But at HIGH levels, we have a challenge.

What I would do is get a magic item that allows the wielder to cast anti-magic field once per day, use it, and charge with a melee character.

[Radar]

Box under a hat?

Build an adamantine dome, inside which you could fit. Cast permanent Shrink Item on it. Now you have a stylish adamantine helmet or a cloth cap (if you have chosen that version of shrinking), that will grow and shield you if you are subject to AMF or some such.

@Ozymandias9
Very interesting build you got there. It actually makes me feel that over the top paranoia is justified.

If we are talking about an open fight, then anything with way higher WBL then the caster can emulate all important spells and abilities. For an extreme example see the Cube build somewhere on this boads. I guess a more advanced version took part in the Test of Spite arena.

[The Glyphstone]

At very low levels (level 1), it isn't all that hard to do with a fighter. But at HIGH levels, we have a challenge.

What I would do is get a magic item that allows the wielder to cast anti-magic field once per day, use it, and charge with a melee character.

The many problems with this plan have been noted previously. Activating the field first means you better have wings, because he's going to be flying and you've just disabled your magical flight options. You'll need to be able to one-shot him with that charge attack (or a pounce-full attack), otherwise he'll either walk out of the AMF or use one of the small suite of tricks for casting in an AMF and leave it anyways. And that's assuming he doesn't use a Win-button like Celerity to simply Go First and make it impossible for you to catch him (easiest would be become invisible and move...you're in an AMF, and there's no way to see invisible as an (Ex) ability that I'm aware of).

[Malbordeus]

I've found getting the jump on a wizard when your a fighter with a AMF cast on you works.

Various Fighter items that help...

potion of AMF
Boots of speed
Cloak of flying (or daemon armour)


... thats it. you start your charge at 120ft without supprise, or 60ft if you use an invis potion (note for all you rules buffs: thats a pretty gnarly penalty to spot... not a skill most wizards have a lot of), i'm sure people here can work out ways of getting a longer charge... oh yeah! flying from an elevated angle...
imp unarmed strike/grapple (or dip into monk...). you have a wizard, grappled, inside a AMF. theres nothing sensible you can put in a hat that blocks off the amf unless its large enough to be a coffin and made of lead... in which case, an oil of amf would be funny to pour on it. contingency wont work as amf, abrupt jaunt wont work as supprise + Amf.
i think that does it.

edit. apparently i'm retarded. stuff the amf potions, get a contingent AMF geared to "if I grapple an arcanist"

[The Glyphstone]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

Even if that strategy works, somehow...you now can't fly either. Let's hope he picked a flight level where he'll die from the falling damage but you won't, otherwise we're back at Square 1, where he does something like Invoke Magic and D-Doors to safety.

[Kobold-Bard]

Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself?

Teleport Through Time:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

1. Optimise Knowledge (History) to find out Wizard's date of birth.
2. Use item of TTT.
3. Step on baby Wizard before he has magic (note: this plan is significantly less safe when used against Sorcerers).
4. Use knowledge of the future to set up a business selling "Edition War Fire Extinguishers" and "Swords of Monk & Fighter Thread-bane" (people will look at you funny but when the **** hits the fan you'll become a God).
5. No ???, just PROFIT!!!

[Eldan]

Pre-knowledge can be used in more interesting ways.

Hmm. You could publish your own version of 3E, Pathfinder-style, the same day they announce 4E. If you are quick enough, you can also try nicking ToB and MoI.

[Eldariel]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

Even if that strategy works, somehow...you now can't fly either. Let's hope he picked a flight level where he'll die from the falling damage but you won't, otherwise we're back at Square 1, where he does something like Invoke Magic and D-Doors to safety.

Don't forget Celerity, Instant Refuge, The Tinfoil Hat and so on. Oh, and Crafted Contingencies.

[Delusion]

Surely any of the tier 3 casters could have a change at least?

[Esser-Z]

Truenamer 20, with Leadershipped Experts all using Aid Another on the truenaming check.

[Killer Angel]

Surely any of the tier 3 casters could have a change at least?

As I've said before, even a non caster T<3 can succeed in it.
The fact is: to beat the magical defences of a high lev. wizard, you need magic too.
If your class abilities don't suffice (AKA, if you're not a caster), then you must have enought wealth to buy and use a sufficient number of wizard tricks.

As said also by our Mod, in a more flavourful way:

Cat-and-mouse, but the cat has body armor, a force field, rocket boots, and shoulder-mounted laser cannons. The mouse's only hope is either catch the cat in the one tiny gap in his armor, or simply have enough money in his bank account to buy an armor-piercing-force-field-breaking-rocket-boot-homing-laser-cannon-dodging missile.

Money can do it... but there is a point, where even the money will fail.

[WinWin]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).

Perhaps a necropolitan Ranger/Rogue with mundane gear might have a chance. They could theoretically avoid most detection spells. All they need do then is lurk in the casters bedroom until they go to sleep. Coup de Grace with a scythe or a pick.

The main problem is that any caster could theoretically trap every square inch of their living space. Not to mention the lurking monsters they could have waiting for any potential ambusher. This is assuming that the casters lair is even accessable via conventional methods.

[Ruinix]

once a friend did a blinking charger with the feat mage slayer, at lev 9 he screw much higher wizards clerics archivist, any caster our DM throw us.

[MarkusWolfe]

Stealth is the key means to killing a wizard.

[Esser-Z]

Be a Warhulking Hurler. Throw the moon at him.

[Aotrs Commander]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

That's actually not what it says in the Complete Arcane, though. It specifically states crafted contingencies are supressed by antimagic fields (and are dispellable).

I think the logic of that is also not sound; unless you are ascribing future sight or the ability to otherwise identify a spell automatically when cast without a spellcraft check to contingencies, they shouldn't detect an AMF until it hits them; by which point, it's too late and they are suppressed. It's akin to saying a mains-only-powered electrical device can instantly take some action to prevent itself being turned off when it's power is cut.

That said, AMF is admittedly, still not easy to use. (I think the very best way of ruining a caster's day is with Anti-Magic Ray because that is nasty if you can get it off (if not as evil as I'd thought after looking it up). It's getting a way to hit them with a 7th level spell that's the problem.)

There's nearly a counter for everything in D&D. But it's not so easy to have them all simultaneously, though. So you need to find a weak spot.

And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

In essense, though, to deal with casters without your own caster support (heck, doesn't have to be tier 1, someone with Dispel Magic and/or scrolls would help), it's like trying to fight against aircraft when you don't have anything to fight them with. Your only hope is to hit them on the ground. Basically, if you can't fight them on reasonably even terms, you have to beat them strategically, and on a case-by-case basis. A bit like Batman himself, you'd have to figure out what makes them tick and find a way to use that to get something on your terms.

[jiriku]

The easiest way to defeat a high-level caster is to use a team and crush him with action advantage, planning, teamwork, and class synergies.

A wizard x will generally fall to a sorcerer, paladin, factotum, and warblade of level x-4 with proper optimization and good tactics. 3 of 4 of them (with proper ACFs and spell selection) can attempt to dispel or counter him. They have more money, more actions, and many tools to trick him and force him to waste actions and spells dealing with phantom threats. Moreover, they can potentially acquire a great deal of knowledge about his preferred tactics and common defenses using their collective information-gathering resources, and they can prepare interlocking defenses using the best abilities of all their classes. It will be a difficult, challenging fight, but it's very doable.

[The Glyphstone]

That's actually not what it says in the Complete Arcane, though. It specifically states crafted contingencies are supressed by antimagic fields (and are dispellable).

I think the logic of that is also not sound; unless you are ascribing future sight or the ability to otherwise identify a spell automatically when cast without a spellcraft check to contingencies, they shouldn't detect an AMF until it hits them; by which point, it's too late and they are suppressed. It's akin to saying a mains-only-powered electrical device can instantly take some action to prevent itself being turned off when it's power is cut.

That said, AMF is admittedly, still not easy to use. (I think the very best way of ruining a caster's day is with Anti-Magic Ray because that is brutal if you can get it off. It's getting a way to hit them with a 7th level spell that's the problem.)

There's nearly a counter for everything in D&D. But it's not so easy to have them all simultaneously, though. So you need to find a weak spot.

And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

In essense, though, to deal with casters without your own caster support (heck, doesn't have to be tier 1, someone with Dispel Magic and/or scrolls would help), it's like trying to fight against aircraft when you don't have anything to fight them with. Your only hope is to hit them on the ground. Basically, if you can't fight them on reasonably even terms, you have to beat them strategically, and on a case-by-case basis. A bit like Batman himself, you'd have to figure out what makes them tick and find a way to use that to get something on your terms.

A fairly good summary, and after looking at CArc, you're right regarding the contingencies.

[Ormagoden]

Use a diplomancer or jumplomancer build.
Carry black lotus extract.
Get the wizard to "fanatic" and tell them that 55 gallon drum of it over there is cool aid.

You could just use lockjaw too, another powerful poison that shuts down all casting.

Dust of coughing and sneezing too if you want to go for ultra sharp cheddar cheese.

[Eldan]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).

I guess you could add a one-use item of Superior Invisibility and the Darkstalker feat. That should cover the basics of detection magic. Also, Misdirection. Didn't one of the spy classes in CArc have that?

[Tengu_temp]

Very high stealth + immunity to divination spells + ubercharger build, preferably with Pounce. A ranger/psychic warrior/slayer should do the trick. Bonus points for being useful for things other than killing wizards.

[Eldan]

If you can, you could include a few Swordsage levels for shadow teleportation. Maybe also the Telflammar Shadowlord for shadow pounce. Would help with your stealth. Though that would ruin ubercharging.

[Eldariel]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).

Perhaps a necropolitan Ranger/Rogue with mundane gear might have a chance. They could theoretically avoid most detection spells. All they need do then is lurk in the casters bedroom until they go to sleep. Coup de Grace with a scythe or a pick.

The main problem is that any caster could theoretically trap every square inch of their living space. Not to mention the lurking monsters they could have waiting for any potential ambusher. This is assuming that the casters lair is even accessable via conventional methods.

The principal issue is that caster's spell list tends to involve rather safe locations to sleep in like Magnificent Mansion or Rope Trick; places only accessible to those they want to allow enter. And when you have Magnificent Mansions, what do you need mundane homes for?

Also, Contingencies are still in effect even in their sleep.

And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

There's also Instant Refuge in SC which is more or less another Contingency. Not to mention Celerity.

[Ormagoden]

I'm telling you... diplomancer. There is no defense against it. It doesn't matter what spells are up or what they have memorized or at their disposal when they become a fanatic and drink the cool aid for you.

[Stompy]

-Make a combination trap, that starts with an AMF and ends with something that sticks the wizard there and does continuous damage (that most people woundn't have a non-magical answer). I'm thinking a bladed net combined with acid.*

-Alternatively, make traps that sunder their gear. Start with the spellbook and extradimensional spaces first.

-Play a bard and convince an even better T1 caster that the caster you want dead is a menace to society. Bonus points if he is one.

*Once again, I can only throw wild speculations, because of things like contingency, and other shenanigans people have thought of.

[Gametime]

I'm telling you... diplomancer. There is no defense against it. It doesn't matter what spells are up or what they have memorized or at their disposal when they become a fanatic and drink the cool aid for you.

Honestly, once they're fanatically devoted to you you're probably better off not killing them. I realize that was the point of this exercise, but there are so many more useful things they could be doing!