Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[ArcanistSupreme]

Tier-1 caster. Not Tier-1. I reserve the right to use Tier-1 character levels if I need to so long as the end result is not a Tier-1 caster.

I guess that's fair. But how you will be able get Tier-1 effects without being a caster will be interesting.

The third is, hey, I have some ideas, I want to try them out. If you know they're coming, they're easy to defend against.

Of course. I was simply pointing out that the wizard could use tactics similar to yours to scout your build.

[Togo]

I guess that's fair. But how you will be able get Tier-1 effects without being a caster will be interesting.

I've only a loose idea of what Tier-1 means, i'm afraid. I've not seen it used outside this board and it's affiliates.

This hobby is a lot bigger than most people seem to think.

[BeholderSlayer]

I've only a loose idea of what Tier-1 means, i'm afraid. I've not seen it used outside this board and it's affiliates.

This hobby is a lot bigger than most people seem to think.

The tier system is outlined here.

[jseah]

Just out of interest, Togo, how would you deal with this slew of attacks:

Foresight+Celerity -> Timestop -> Arcane Thesis (+Incantatrix) Delayed Disjunction + Chain Delayed Greater Dispel Magic (+dispelling cord +CL boosters +arcane mastery = auto dispel vs anything less than CL~24-25 or so)

Disjunction kills your buffs. A uber Chain Dispel kills your items. How high can you get your touch AC without buffs or items?
How high can you get your saves? Another Disjunction could then kill your items permanently. Then the wizard teleports away just to be a jerk.
All this delayed (metamagic feat) to after Timestop so that it's possible inside a Timestop.


I think your best bet is getting as high a hide check as possible without magic. Then getting around mindsight/lifesight, and divination, +hide in plain sight +darkstalker.

And then you can say that the wizard can't find you.

[Togo]

Just out of interest, Togo, how would you deal with this slew of attacks:

Foresight+Celerity -> Timestop -> Arcane Thesis (+Incantatrix) Delayed Disjunction + Chain Delayed Greater Dispel Magic (+dispelling cord +CL boosters +arcane mastery = auto dispel vs anything less than CL~24-25 or so)

Hmm.

First off, the delay feat goes off at the start of the round, so unless you have surprise on me, I have an action before it goes off. I could just move out of the area of effect, although the DM might not let me know where it's going to go off.

Second of all, the chain dispel magic is pointless, since that only works with a targeted spell, and you can't target someone who is subject to a time stop effect, delayed or not.

Third, dispel magic doesn't do anything to items unless you target them directly. While you can concentrate on the character and work what the most important items are, that takes time that you don't really have in the time stop. Certainly not all items would be visible. And the items, being attended, are also subject to time stop and thus can't be targeted, delayed or not. Area dispel doesn't effect items.

Fourth, as a character with very minor spellcasting ability, he wasn't relying on buffs to kill the wizard. He'll have them, they'll be useful, and losing them will make him cry, but I wasn't relying on them.

Items and buff spells are a good guess as to what makes the character dangerous, but it was a wrong guess in this case.

Then the wizard teleports away just to be a jerk.

This is something I certainly can't easily do, which is stop a wizard running away. Killing a sorceror or extraplanar creature with teleport is very hard, because they can usually just leave. Wizards are often easier, since they typically can't do it so many times a day.

I think your best bet is getting as high a hide check as possible without magic. Then getting around mindsight/lifesight, and divination, +hide in plain sight +darkstalker.

And then you can say that the wizard can't find you.

Hiding is one way. Better would be to turn up in an antimagic field, and laugh as the entire timestop cascade bounced off. You could do both, of course. Doesn't do anything to the more common tactics, which are to gate in creatures and fill the area with conjured area effects like acid fog or cloudkill.

Here's one for you. What would your wizard do against a harpoon with an antimagic field around it? (not what I was planning to do, but a fairly straightforward idea nontheless). If it hits, and it's not going to bothered by contingencies, magic protections short of prismatic wall, or any buff spells whatsoever, then it sticks in you and you need to spend an action getting it out.

[Radar]

(...)
Here's one for you. What would your wizard do against a harpoon with an antimagic field around it? (not what I was planning to do, but a fairly straightforward idea nontheless). If it hits, and it's not going to bothered by contingencies, magic protections short of prismatic wall, or any buff spells whatsoever, then it sticks in you and you need to spend an action getting it out.

Apart from the fact, that AMF is a personal range spell (so you can't enchant a harpoon with it), the answer to AMF is a Tinfoil Hat - it always is.

[Togo]

Apart from the fact, that AMF is a personal range spell (so you can't enchant a harpoon with it), the answer to AMF is a Tinfoil Hat - it always is.

I have my doubts as to whether the tinfoil hat is RAW. But even if it is, is there any reason why I can't use a variation of it against disjunction? I hadn't suggested it, because I thought it was ineffective in any sensible application of the rules.

It's certainly more of a edge case than a antimagic field on a harpoon.

Otherwise I could just turn up inside a barrel, or in several identical barrels, and 'win intiative' simply by not being in line of effect until it's my turn.

[Radar]

From AMF description:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
You build a metal dome big enough to fit you inside. Cast a permanent Shrink Item on it and wear it as a hat. The moment you are subject to AMF, the Shrink Item spell is suppressed and the dome goes back to it's original size. If you had it on your head, it's only logical, that you will end up inside the dome. The dome is subject for the AMF, but shields you from it (it obviously gives total cover). I don't find anything to be contested here. On the other hand AMF clearly states, that it's an emanation centered on you (the caster). There are ways to apply such spells on other people or objects (probably), but it requires certain commitment in your build.

As to using a Tinfoil Hat to defend against a wizard: the problem is, time works against you. If you are hiding it those barrels, then you can't attack and the wizard has time to summon allies and reshape the battlefield to his advantage and your doom. On the other hand, if the wizard is inside a dome, he has time to buff himself or polymorph into something with burrowing speed and leave some nasty surprise inside the dome, while you try to break into it.

[jseah]

The tin-foil hat steps outside of a RAW/RAI discussion.

It's a piece of creative engineering.
AMF -> Suppresses every spell and item on the wizard including shrink item -> shrink item expands to block AMF source -> only item remains in line of effect

I like those things, similar to the abuse of contact other plane. (asking about questions to bypass no identical questions rule)

Could I take a stab at guessing your character?
Some kind of statistic stacker, a bit like adding cha to everything including itself and having Charisma through the roof.
I know a player who built something like that, on top of abusing Ability Rip, to get most combat stuff into high 70s.

Almost certainly wrong, but I think that's one build that doesn't rely (as much) on items or buffs.

[Gauntlet]

Wouldn't it be possible to use Sculpt Spell on the Antimagic Field to have it include the wizard but not his hat?

[Radar]

Wouldn't it be possible to use Sculpt Spell on the Antimagic Field to have it include the wizard but not his hat?

I'm not sure, if the Sculpt Spell can be that specific - it gives a bunch of area shapes, but affecting a person without his/her possession is kind of a stretch. Also: can scrolls contain metamagiced spells?

[jseah]

It might be possible to sculpt spell AMF for a sufficiently large hat, such that the non-shrunk form of the hat is outside the AMF.

Otherwise, you can try including part of the wizard. Specifically the lower half.


Scrolls can contain metamagic versions of the spell. Empowered fireball counts as a 5th level spell for purposes of cost and CL minimum.

[Radar]

It might be possible to sculpt spell AMF for a sufficiently large hat, such that the non-shrunk form of the hat is outside the AMF.

Otherwise, you can try including part of the wizard. Specifically the lower half.
(...)

1. The hat won't probably be that large.
2. If you only include the lower half of the wizard (if it's possible), then he should still be able to cast spells - his hands and head are out of range.

[Togo]

The tin-foil hat steps outside of a RAW/RAI discussion.

It's a piece of creative engineering.

I'm aware how it works. The problem is that it was originally designed as a protection against spells. Against spells all you need is a thin layer to block line of effect, hence 'tin foil'.

Against a harpoon, you're looking at something a bit more substantial, and this is where the questions start getting raised. How is this not armour, in the sense of an obstruction causing somatic components to fail? considering that a harpoon can get through magical plate armour, how heavy is this dome? Remember, if it just pokes through, you're still in trouble. Does it bring the wizard to ground? How much falling damage does he take? Does a huge weight suddenly appearing on the wizard's head and potentially doing him damage not spring contingency spells based around 'an attack'?

I'm not convinced that having a 400 ft cubic dome appear around the wizard, bringing him to ground, is not in fact a very good thing for his opponent. It certainly limits the wizard's options.

Either way, presumably exactly the same effect would work against disjunction? Hence the turning up in a barrel...


I don't agree that time works against me. As long that time is spent countering my last move, then I'm still golden.

Could I take a stab at guessing your character?
Some kind of statistic stacker, a bit like adding cha to everything including itself and having Charisma through the roof.
I know a player who built something like that, on top of abusing Ability Rip, to get most combat stuff into high 70s.

Almost certainly wrong, but I think that's one build that doesn't rely (as much) on items or buffs.

It's a nice idea. Actually I'm using two or three source books and taking character classes more or less straight as written.

I didn't mean to keep people guessing. I could just say, but then the element of surprise would be gone, and I wanted to try it with someone who didn't know what they were up against.

[Radar]

(...)
Against a harpoon, you're looking at something a bit more substantial, and this is where the questions start getting raised. How is this not armour, in the sense of an obstruction causing somatic components to fail? considering that a harpoon can get through magical plate armour, how heavy is this dome? Remember, if it just pokes through, you're still in trouble. Does it bring the wizard to ground? How much falling damage does he take? Does a huge weight suddenly appearing on the wizard's head and potentially doing him damage not spring contingency spells based around 'an attack'?

I'm not convinced that having a 400 ft cubic dome appear around the wizard, bringing him to ground, is not in fact a very good thing for his opponent. It certainly limits the wizard's options.

Either way, presumably exactly the same effect would work against disjunction? Hence the turning up in a barrel...


I don't agree that time works against me. As long that time is spent countering my last move, then I'm still golden.
(...)

I've just run through some calculations and a hat weighting a pound (still reasonable) would get you a steel dome half an inch thick. So a mithral dome would be an inch thick (half the regular weight), which gives 30hp with hardness 15. Not that much, but will stop any projectile unless from an throw optimised character. Even a steel dome should suffice and had to be taken down in melee.

I can't say much about any damage sustained due to expanding hat, but the wizard will not be pinned down by it - there is enough room inside for him to cast spells etc. If so, he can in a worst case scenario teleport away and mount a counterattack (gated allies, Mindrape + Love's Pain or any other method). At least that's how I see it. I haven't done any PvP so I'm obviously missing a lot of tactics/countertactics. Test of Spite contestants might be more able to give a definite answer to the problem.

[Togo]

I've just run through some calculations and a hat weighting a pound (still reasonable) would get you a steel dome half an inch thick. So a mithral dome would be an inch thick (half the regular weight), which gives 30hp with hardness 15. Not that much, but will stop any projectile unless from an throw optimised character. Even a steel dome should suffice and had to be taken down in melee.

Possibly. An adamantine harpoon thrown by a fighter with strength 30, armbands of might, brutal throw and power throw, could easily do 30 points of damage (6.5+10+12+2). That hardly requires much optimisation. A fighter wouldn't even need to be a specialised thrower.

However, 30 hp is the amount you need to break down an inch thick barrier. It's the rules designed for breaking down doors and such. All the harpoon needs to do is poke through a bit, and that wouldn't be nearly so hard. It doesn't need to hurt the wizard.

I can't say much about any damage sustained due to expanding hat, but the wizard will not be pinned down by it - there is enough room inside for him to cast spells etc.

That's not the point. The point is that he's balancing (by your calculations) 2000ld of metal on his head. Even if that doesn't break his neck, unless he has a strength of 27 or more, that's enough to bring him crashing to the ground (doing falling damage and knocking him prone). He's then trapped under a heavy dome he can't even drag unless he's on smooth ground, possibly can't even tip over..

If so, he can in a worst case scenario teleport away and mount a counterattack (gated allies, Mindrape + Love's Pain or any other method). At least that's how I see it.

Worst case is that the dome lands upright with the harpoon sticking through, and he's trapped in an antimagic mithril jail cell. Not inescapable, but I'd say it gives the non-wizard the advantage.

I haven't done any PvP so I'm obviously missing a lot of tactics/countertactics. Test of Spite contestants might be more able to give a definite answer to the problem.

Possibly. Test of Spite bans a surprising amount of stuff though. Including a lot of stuff that could be abused by wizards, but could equally be abused by Tier 2 characters and below. Unlike most campaigns though, they don't ban any spells. As such, I'd say it's somewhat slanted in favour of wizards in particular, and Tier 1 casters in general. It's a good arena, but I certainly wouldn't call it definitive.

[Radar]

1. After expansion The Hat is not even on wizard's head - it's higher then that, so that is not an issue.
2. 30 hp plus 15 hardness, so it would take more then that, unless you can use Mountain Hammer maneuver on a throw, which I doubt.
3. You haven't addres the issue of applying Antimagic Field to a harpoon.

Also: all ToS bans have a reason behind them, so people in charge of the rules know, how to exploit each of the banned spells/item/etc.

[Emmerask]

In general. At least, the goal of the diplomacy check is considered so, since unless you can make the wizard fanatical I really don't think you can consider it a victory.

helpful:
Sure I let you crash at my place (my place being the demiplane the real wizard lives in).
Yeah I´m going to sleep/meditate now, you can watch crystal ball...the toilet? yeah its right next to the weapons chamber, the one I have shown you, remember?

Then in his sleep/meditation the wizard gets stabbed, A Lot

[Togo]

1. After expansion The Hat is not even on wizard's head - it's higher then that, so that is not an issue.

Ah, I was assuming a flying wizard.

2. 30 hp plus 15 hardness, so it would take more then that, unless you can use Mountain Hammer maneuver on a throw, which I doubt.

Adamantine harpoon ignores hardness.

3. You haven't addres the issue of applying Antimagic Field to a harpoon.

I know, it was just an idea. A weapon of legacy could probably do it, but that's quite a major investment, and starts to get into the realm of DM fiat.

Also: all ToS bans have a reason behind them, so people in charge of the rules know, how to exploit each of the banned spells/item/etc.

Sure, they ban anything that might make the capabilities of the characters irrelevent. For example, they ban the entire polymorph chain. Since powers that make the capabilities of the characters irrelevent is the best way for a weaker character to beat a stronger one, that's tilting things in favour of the stronger character. Noone denies that a high level wizard is the most powerful, and ToS bans a great deal that might make serve to reduce that gradient.

Of course they do so because they want interesting duels, rather than comparions of rules exploits, but it rules out almost all the best ways to kill a wizard.

[Elfstone]

Im suprised no one mentioned (as far as I can see) Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane pg63) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829

Most epic mage killer ever (even though its a PrC)

Inhindsight I have to many parentheses.

EDIT:
Mageslayer feat needed to be epic.