Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[thompur]

A maximized Reciprical Gyre...

[Drakevarg]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

[FelixG]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.

Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

And im not sure about others but when i play a wizard i tend to keep a second spell book secreted away in something like a portable hole hidden elsewhere in such occasions (i have had **** GMs have my spellbook get stolen in the night before)

[Drakevarg]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.

Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

And im not sure about others but when i play a wizard i tend to keep a second spell book secreted away in something like a portable hole hidden elsewhere in such occasions (i have had **** GMs have my spellbook get stolen in the night before)

Fine. Silenced Quickened True Strike, Silenced Disintegrate, Antimagic Field. Dip one level into Barbarian and beat him with a blunt object for a few minutes.

Or just do the original thing while he's still having his morning cardboard out of his Myrlund's Spoon.

[Stompy]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.)

Celerity. Teleport.

Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

It does do something, at least. Heck, the wizard may be pissed off enough (see above) to do something rash and stupid. That's when you get him.

[FelixG]

Celerity. Teleport.



It does do something, at least. Heck, the wizard may be pissed off enough (see above) to do something rash and stupid. That's when you get him.

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

[Stompy]

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

that's the WIS stat sir, which is usually 8 on these wizards .

EDIT: that may not be the case, stupid semi-ill-defined mental stats.

[Drakevarg]

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

Contrary to popular belief, "intelligent" != "Vulcan."

[Emmerask]

that's the WIS stat sir, which is usually 8 on these wizards .

EDIT: that may not be the case, stupid semi-ill-defined mental stats.

I think its wisdom too, wisdom being the perception stat which includes perceiving other peoples intents and behaviors.

You could make a point for Int having a part in it but that would mix real world with d&d.

[Tyndmyr]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

You carry your spellbook in an openly visible, identifiable fashion?

I essentially never do. Not just because of paranoia, but because with low strength, carrying capacity is not my strong point. Plus, I don't need my spellbook mid-day. Therefore, it gets stashed somewhere safe. Typically on me, though.

The paranoia is why I carry a fake spellbook at my side, trapped all to hell.

[FelixG]

I think its wisdom too, wisdom being the perception stat which includes perceiving other peoples intents and behaviors.

You could make a point for Int having a part in it but that would mix real world with d&d.

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Sense Motive: See above

Works either way ~.^

[Drakevarg]

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Not a standardized Knowledge category for one, and have you ever actually taken ranks in that yourself, for two?

Sense Motive: See above

Sense Motive is WIS-based.

You carry your spellbook in an openly visible, identifiable fashion?

Honestly? Yes. I just leave it on my belt because I'm too damned lazy to put it anywhere else.

Then again, I'm a blasty-mage with a fondness for fire trapping everything I come across. So I'm probably not the best mage to take advise from.

[Emmerask]

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Sense Motive: See above

Works either way ~.^

With this you are mixing real world with d&d ^^
skills in d&d have a very specific and narrow field of use, if you try to substitute one skill with the other (which makes sense in the real world) you are talking about rap and not raw anymore.

If one of those two would grant the other synergy one could argue the point but this way...

[FelixG]

Not a standardized Knowledge category for one, and have you ever actually taken ranks in that yourself, for two?



Sense Motive is WIS-based.



Honestly? Yes. I just leave it on my belt because I'm too damned lazy to put it anywhere else.

Then again, I'm a blasty-mage with a fondness for fire trapping everything I come across. So I'm probably not the best mage to take advise from.

No kidding Sense Motive is WIS based? Why would i ever use it to compare that a WIS and INT skill can overlap...

Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.

And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P

[Vulaas]

Non T1 caster? Don't suppose that allows a Rainbow Servant (text over table) Warmage to work . Because if it does, you can totally just out-caster them.

For a noncaster, you must assume a couple things, though.
1) You can find out reliably about where they are teleporting
2) You can then follow in some manner. Otherwise it is futile other than to make something with a half dozen carrier effects on a crit and then keep hoping that your first attack is a critical and they aren't immune to it.

Otherwise, and more seriously, for a non-caster, I think the Vecna-blooded template is a must for giving absolute immunity to divinations, then a ton of stealth (Remember Darkstalker!). Most likely I'd suggest an archer of some sort. Take the scry out of scry and die, and stay out of sight while sniping them bit by bit.

[Drakevarg]

No kidding Sense Motive is WIS based? Why would i ever use it to compare that a WIS and INT skill can overlap...

I misinterpreted the point of your statement, then.

Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.

A'course, if your DM isn't a master tactician, you might be better off just using your own meatspace brainpan.

And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P

You bind your spellbook?

Well, to be more accurate, I have a leather bookbag. Which, while not ATTACHED to my belt, hangs along side it. Relevent point being that I make no effort whatsoever to obscure it's location.

[FelixG]

I misinterpreted the point of your statement, then.



A'course, if your DM isn't a master tactician, you might be better off just using your own meatspace brainpan.



You bind your spellbook?

Well, to be more accurate, I have a leather bookbag. Which, while not ATTACHED to my belt, hangs along side it. Relevent point being that I make no effort whatsoever to obscure it's location.

Misinterpreting happens to the best of us :D

I dont mind if the DM isnt a master tactician, but i expect my 30 int wizard to be pretty dang good at figuring things out, thats probably surpassing even mentat levels of reasoning (dune reference, look it up for those who dont get it :P ) and my wizard is probably a whole heck of alot smarter than me.

Bind as in wrapping it in leather straps to keep it closed and tieing it to my belt.

And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.

[Person_Man]

Spellthief is built to take down magical defenses, drain spells, and go supernova on casters with the Arcane Strike feat. The only problem is that against non-casters you're essentially a nerfed Rogue who needs to borrow spells and spell-like abilities from party members to be useful.

Incarnate can get Spell Resistance 5 + (4 * essentia invested) via the Spellward Shirt. It can be topped out at around SR 40ish with the right feats and magic items, making an Incarnate practically immune to most (but certainly not all) magic. He can also get a ridiculously huge number of bonus hit points, Evasion, Energy Resistance, and high AC (including high touch AC).

I would also mention that dozens, if not hundreds, of builds can get 300+ damage per round with a very high chance of success against pretty much any target. That's enough to kill almost anything. So all you really need to do is not be surprised and win Initiative.

[Eldariel]

Spellthief is built to take down magical defenses, drain spells, and go supernova on casters with the Arcane Strike feat. The only problem is that against non-casters you're essentially a nerfed Rogue who needs to borrow spells and spell-like abilities from party members to be useful.

Incarnate can get Spell Resistance 5 + (4 * essentia invested) via the Spellward Shirt. It can be topped out at around SR 40ish with the right feats and magic items, making an Incarnate practically immune to most (but certainly not all) magic. He can also get a ridiculously huge number of bonus hit points, Evasion, Energy Resistance, and high AC (including high touch AC).

I would also mention that dozens, if not hundreds, of builds can get 300+ damage per round with a very high chance of success against pretty much any target. That's enough to kill almost anything. So all you really need to do is not be surprised and win Initiative.

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

[Tyndmyr]

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

First off, not every caster has Craft Contingent Spell. Even among those who do, using the full compliment every day would be inordinately expensive.

Therefore, a caster who is taken by surprise cannot be reasonably assumed to have a contingency in place to counter whatever tactic is used. He might, but a significant amount of luck would be involved.

[Drakevarg]

I dont mind if the DM isnt a master tactician, but i expect my 30 int wizard to be pretty dang good at figuring things out, thats probably surpassing even mentat levels of reasoning (dune reference, look it up for those who dont get it :P ) and my wizard is probably a whole heck of alot smarter than me.

My point was that there's no point in rolling for tactics if your DM couldn't think up any better tactics than you could.

And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.

Which makes as much sense as saying I could survive a disintegrate spell because I was wearing a shirt.

[Tyndmyr]

Which makes as much sense as saying I could survive a disintegrate spell because I was wearing a shirt.

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

[Aharon]

Oh, just because it's hilarious (first read about that trick in a post by The Mad Linguist):

Knowledge Affiliation. You can take away abilities, Spellcasting is an Ex Ability (or natural, the debate isn't over yet, AFAIK), so you rob him of his casting powers for 1 minute. Works for anybody who has been a teacher in a church with knowledge domain for 15 years or longer

The caster does get a save, though, Fort vs. 10+level+int modifier

[Emmerask]

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

But if we go there then we should also call a wall with tapestry not Disintegrateable (with one cast) these are two different objects after all one covering the other.

A wall of stone proofs to be quite a formidable defense indeed consisting of millions of small objects which give each other cover (crafty bastards indeed!)

A painted wall with its paint cover is evil too ^^

Also the Human skin consists of different layers of skin so Disintegrate should really be called super skin peal (of doom!)?

Anyway the point is this: for the sake of ease of use a pouch with stuff in it is one object, a pouch with stuff, which all gets Disintegrated if hit

[Eldariel]

First off, not every caster has Craft Contingent Spell. Even among those who do, using the full compliment every day would be inordinately expensive.

Therefore, a caster who is taken by surprise cannot be reasonably assumed to have a contingency in place to counter whatever tactic is used. He might, but a significant amount of luck would be involved.

Contingency can be triggered with simple "when I cast Nerveskitter" or "when I say X" or some such; no need for specific one for each scenario. All you need is a generic that teleports you away. Of course your main contingencies are Contingency and Instant Refuge. Crafted Contingencies are in place for when those fail. Optimally they shouldn't be necessary but if someone casts AMF next to you, you'll probably be happier that your contingency whisked you away and you spent some money than being stuck in said AMF.

[crizh]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

What is that, a level 15 caster?

How are you squeezing Ranged Sunder into that build?

AFAIK, RAW, you flat out cannot target an attended object with a Ray.

[Gametime]

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

Even if it did block all LoE, it might not work. You can still cast spells on someone hiding behind a tower shield, for example, just by targeting the shield.

[Tyndmyr]

But if we go there then we should also call a wall with tapestry not Disintegrateable (with one cast) these are two different objects after all one covering the other.

A wall of stone proofs to be quite a formidable defense indeed consisting of millions of small objects which give each other cover (crafty bastards indeed!)

A painted wall with its paint cover is evil too ^^

Also the Human skin consists of different layers of skin so Disintegrate should really be called super skin peal (of doom!)?

Anyway the point is this: for the sake of ease of use a pouch with stuff in it is one object, a pouch with stuff, which all gets Disintegrated if hit

No, no, objects are discrete items in 3.5. You don't get to claim that layers of skin are analogous to a book in a bag. Or an item in a chest. A tapestry COMPLETELY covering a wall would indeed block LoS and LoE to the wall. If you ever play ToH, this fact actually matters.

Paint on a wall is not normally treated as a discrete object in 3.5, but both a backpack and a spellbook are. Ignoring this would result in wierd things such as being able to scribe spells to your backpack.

Contingency can be triggered with simple "when I cast Nerveskitter" or "when I say X" or some such; no need for specific one for each scenario. All you need is a generic that teleports you away. Of course your main contingencies are Contingency and Instant Refuge. Crafted Contingencies are in place for when those fail. Optimally they shouldn't be necessary but if someone casts AMF next to you, you'll probably be happier that your contingency whisked you away and you spent some money than being stuck in said AMF.

This is true. However, nerveskitter is the only one listed that allows you to cast it when taken completely by surprise. With the aforementioned example, you will not know it's coming until you're literally hit by it.

And this requires the presupposition that the wizard is walking around with a contingency to instantly bail whenever he uses nerveskitter. It is MUCH more plausible to simply hide your spellbook than to instantly teleport away from any encounter.

[crizh]

OT, if Psions are tier 2 then Divert Teleport is a tactic I've been toying with for screwing with layered Contingent defences.

You don't attack the target directly but with a well rounded group of slightly less powerful patsies who are sufficiently threatening to start triggering the target's Contingencies.

Every time he uses something with the [Teleport] descriptor it's a DC~35 Will save to avoid the Lava Pit and the AMF.

Obviously doesn't work on anything with the Fire subtype but you get the idea. Adamantine cage on the ocean floor and an AMF is a good alternative.

[Tharck]

Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

Lvl 1 Rogue, Level 29 Centaur Monk.
Stack WIS, DEX, and CON for items and stat set-up.
Choose +2 Will Save, Fort, and Ref feats.
Focus on raising UMD to maximum.
Purchase a couple wish scrolls (you're 30th level so you'll be starting with a lot more gp.)
Take deflect missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle infinite times per day back at the caster.
Imp Init.
Endurance.
Feat for cannot fail Fort saves on a 1.
Feat to roll all Will saves as Fort saves.
Staff of Mindblank.
Wand of Dimensional Anchor.
Glove of Storing + Wand of Nerveskitter.
Scroll of Contigency level 18.
Scroll of Anti-Magic Shell.
Contigency when a Mage's Disjunction would effect you - Anti-Magic Shell.
Staff of Hunting: Discern Location, Greater Scry, Greater Teleport.
This is a generic build with generic items, nothing too optimized but it will give just about any caster a run for their money.

Saving throw wise you should be untouchable to the wizard.
He can use orb, but it will instantly be deflected and returned back onto him. He cannot land rays or Orbs.

This has a chance of killing a wizard. Even an optimized one.

If all else fails, shapechange into a Lich. Wear item which grants immunity to vacuum. Greater Teleport into space. Wish wizard to you.

Also you can use Discern Location to find the wizard (if he does not have mindblank up) and Wish for an accurate and well painted picture of that place. Then you can greater teleport there.