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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Without hombrew? Hard. I could give you dozens of ways to do it with. I love homebrew.

    However, a high CHA character with Glibness has a shot. You send them a letter saying you have a proposition for them, organise to meet, use Glibness to ramp up your bluff skill so you can epic bluff to conceal your alignment (same as wizard's). Then add you Black Dog and Spymaster and shake their hand/give them a "powerful artifact" daubed in every poison out there. There are dozens of ways to get your poison powerful enough. Wisdom/charisma damage is one - once they're catatonic, just keep stabbing.
    Last edited by Cogidubnus; 2010-09-17 at 01:08 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by crizh View Post
    OT, if Psions are tier 2 then Divert Teleport is a tactic I've been toying with for screwing with layered Contingent defences.

    You don't attack the target directly but with a well rounded group of slightly less powerful patsies who are sufficiently threatening to start triggering the target's Contingencies.

    Every time he uses something with the [Teleport] descriptor it's a DC~35 Will save to avoid the Lava Pit and the AMF.

    Obviously doesn't work on anything with the Fire subtype but you get the idea. Adamantine cage on the ocean floor and an AMF is a good alternative.
    This is pretty solid, but the adamantine hat will cause a bit of a problem in both scenarios due to the AMF. It would probably be better to divert him/her nearby so you (and probably multiple others) could continue to effectively lock the wizard in place. Have some people blast away with dispel magic until the wizard is debuffed and then take him/her out. Maybe have some people readying dispel magic to counter spells he/she casts. To be effective, larger numbers would be ideal, but a smaller group optimized to do their jobs might work too.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme View Post
    This is pretty solid, but the adamantine hat will cause a bit of a problem in both scenarios due to the AMF. It would probably be better to divert him/her nearby so you (and probably multiple others) could continue to effectively lock the wizard in place. Have some people blast away with dispel magic until the wizard is debuffed and then take him/her out. Maybe have some people readying dispel magic to counter spells he/she casts. To be effective, larger numbers would be ideal, but a smaller group optimized to do their jobs might work too.
    You had me until (bold faced above) which no longer is a fair idea.
    Last edited by Tharck; 2010-09-17 at 01:36 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Most Tier 2's with forethought can kill a Tier-1. There's a lot of "builds" and "tricks" that work. Some off the top of my head...

    The Uber Telepath (Tier-2 Psion) who True Mind Switches with a Lilitu. He gains Cleric Domains / Spells as a 9th Level Caster, Alignment Ambiguity and, most importantly, Use Item all as Ex Abilities. Use Item is an auto-pass on a UMD check. With a staff you can attempt to use it at a given level and it always works. So a Staff of Benevolence, for example, always would put forther a Caster Level 10,000 Holy Word if the Psion so desired. Add in that a Psion can Dim Door or Teleport as a Swift Action and, well, it's mean... Worse than that, if you play the "fission" game, you've got two of you, so the "real" you is never at risk since he's likely divining target location while the other manifests the teleport & strikes w/ an unsavable spell from an item.

    Then there's the Persisting Favored Soul, who should be Tier 1 IMO. Favored Soul + Sacred Exorcist & a smart feat chain = Persistent Spells at L9, or L12 more reasonably. Using Casting-Progressive PrCs going forward, this PC can (and will) have saves all exceeding 50 at L20, and at a hearty caster level when they're persisted. Often 32+. This means that it would take an Exceptional Tier-1 Caster to be able to affect removal of the Buffs short of a Disjunction - and ideally any caster has a "contingency" for that... At the high level they're keeping 6-8 Persists on them at least, and likely using Miracle to cajole a few off other lists (like Giant Size and Bite of the Werebear if they're Melee).
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Be a tier 2 caster.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharck View Post
    You had me until (bold faced above) which no longer is a fair idea.
    Obviously this isn't fair for the caster. If a DM does this, it's a pretty jerk move. But if players are looking to take down a wizard, this is a decent way to do it.

    I'm also pretty sure that there are better ways to do it than mine.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Question I've been meaning to ask. How useful (if at all) are the Occult Slayer PRC and the Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Protection feats on a fighter-type?

    Mage Slayer looks like it's only useful combined with large-size or a reach weapon, since otherwise a mage can just take a 5 foot step out of your threatened squares and then cast without worrying about you bonking him over the head.

    Pierce magical protection is nice since it lets you ignore armor from spells and dispel on a hit, but how much of a caster's actual mitigation comes from magical AC boosts?
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Step 1: Get leadership, max gather information/buy divination spell.

    Step 2: Use gather information/divination to determine where the caster's contingent teleports are to. Construct a thoroughly solid object there.

    Step 3: Have one minion throw a rock with antimagic field on it at the wizard, hopefully triggering his contingencies. This should have him teleport out, into the solid object/teleport fails (Not sure which is the case)

    Step 4: if the wizard is still there, wail on him with your companions.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Ready an action to throw a knife at the bead created by a fireball the wizard is about to cast. Hit bead.
    Kill wizard by having his own spell blow up in his face.

    Alternatively, replace the knife with a permanently invisible, telekinetically levitated tower shield.
    Last edited by Chrono22; 2010-09-17 at 03:57 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Problem 1: The wizard ain't casting fireball at you

    Problem 2: He'd be immune to fire/spells if he was

    Problem 3: He'd also cast it before you got your knife out
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    1. Spell target is irrelevant.
    2. No, not usually.
    3. Readied action.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I think the objection was more rooted in "the wizard won't be casting Fireball" than in "the wizard won't be casting Fireball at you specifically."

    If all wizards did was cast Fireballs, we wouldn't have semiweekly threads arguing about how they can be dealt with.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    yeah, I know
    But wizards tend to brag about their powers, specifically with snippy one liners or monologues.
    A wizard might not tell you what spell he is going to cast... but fireballs aren't an uncommon spell, and on some level the wizard's appearance and actions advertise his spell selection. A diviner probably won't be wearing fiery red robes, and he certainly won't shout out "Your souls shall burn with my arcane fire!"

    Anyway, killing a wizard with his own magic has to be the most satisfying way of defeating a tier 1 character, that I've ever experienced.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Play a Monk. The Wizard will be laughing so hard at your feeble attempt to kill him that he'll fumble his spells and you can snap his neck

    Play a Sorcerer. Like a Wizard but Tier 2, target his spell list at Mage slaying.

    Pixie Paladin 2/Monk 2/warblade X?
    It'd help if there was a paladin variant that overrid contingincies as low as mid level *maybe something based off of witch hunting*.
    ----

    A wizard could easily use telepathy (or use a spell to foresee the future or whatever) and scry. They could have all this as early as the time that they have contingincies and the ability to create magic items.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-09-17 at 05:00 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I would have thought the way to go would be to find a single moment in his routine or his daily life where he isn't ready to teleport away if he is unexpectedly attacked, (Say, whilst buying his magical groceries, bat guano etc), and then ubercharge him.

    If necessary, make sure he isn't aware you are present, then uber-charge from hiding.

    Of course, if he does have nerve-skitter or so on then you're pretty much out of luck, and miss chances aren't going to help. Likewise if he's currently immune to HP damage, which I've heard is possible.

    Perhaps it would help to have an uber-charging leadership posse, as It'd only really take one good hit to do him in.

    Fully defence-focused optimised wizards will pretty much not be going down to anything short of Diplomancy, because quite frankly if they are doing it right, even the tier 2 caster stumbles because such a Wizard should have 20-celestial-questions divined till he knew of all such threats and had chance to prepare in advance.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrthain View Post
    Step 2: Use gather information/divination to determine where the caster's contingent teleports are to.
    I sincerely doubt that the stereotypical paranoid wizard will ever tell anyone where his contingent teleport is going. The whole point is so he can regroup for a counterattack, and it'd be pretty stupid to make your escape plan common knowledge. If I were the DM, the only way that gather information work would be if you were torturing the wizard in question, and the information would kind of be redundant at that point.

    The divinations would work if and only if the wizard forgot/didn't feel like using countermeasures.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    How well could a Factotum using the lucid dreaming skill to enter the region of dreams with a single scroll of shapechange(UMD),and other overpowered spells then attack the wizard there?
    You might need to find a way to get the wizard in the dreamheart if you managed to weaken him to make him dead.
    The factotum's ability to "cast" spells under level 7 as a standard action or less could come in handy. If things go bad leave the Realm of dreams then reenter and you are fully healed, and reequipped as you started.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    He doesn't need to tell anyone where his teleports go. You have patsies do an exploratory attack to trigger his contingencies and then use Trace Teleport to make his life short and painful.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Quote Originally Posted by crizh View Post
    He doesn't need to tell anyone where his teleports go. You have patsies do an exploratory attack to trigger his contingencies and then use Trace Teleport to make his life short and painful.
    That would work if the wizard always set his contingency to teleport him to the same place. I wouldn't. If you kept doing it, though, you might be able to slowly whittle down the number of places he could teleport to safely or figure out a pattern.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I am away from books at the moment but couldn't a lvl 20 Warlock optimized for his invocations with the damaging dispel invocation that does damage for every spell it destroys one shot a wizard with like 21 contingencies up?

    That is not even counting the normal Improved mage armor, fly, and other spells that might be active.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Be a Factotum and bury the wizard under actions. Use extra standared actions to ready counters for his contingencies and celerity.

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Step 1: Be a Warlock
    Step 2: Use WBL to buy scrolls of Mindrape and Love's Pain
    Step 3: Kidnap peasant and Mindrape him into loving the target wizard
    Step 4: Get/hire an Incantatrix buddy to lend your scroll of Love's Pain some metamagic powers such as maximize and empower or twin
    Step 5: Use Love's Pain on peasant
    Step 6: This.
    Step 7: ???
    Step 8: Profit
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    I would extrapolate on the Mage-slayer build I've been plotting for a while now, but I know the DM I intend to run him under frequents these threads.

    That said, pierce magical protection, pierce magical concealment. You've got one stab. Make it count.

    Add in perhaps, Insightful Strike, and well...isn't there a Luck spell that counts your next roll as a nat 20?

    Poisons are nice, but you want something to cripple casting, and keep him from moving.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Isn't there a what, CR 9 creature with at-will disjunctions? (Adamantine Clockwork Horror or some such) Get some as pets, make them fire at the wizard.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Really now, killing a single level 20 wizard could be the point of an entire campaign

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    The problem with killing a high level wizard is that, by definition, the best ways of killing him are all situational. Good example is one that most people have missed: Most of a wizard's offensive capability requires that teensy tiny little thing known as "Line of Sight", and the rest are incredibly risky to use. A good example of this is a little trick I call "The Hall of Pillars"... lots of pillars, close together, smallish space, but lots of room for a rogue to run around in. AMF scroll would be a good idea, because even with crafted contingency, as noted, there is a fairly good chance they won't work. Not a great chance, but a fair chance, and that's the best you're going to get.

    Also in RAW (for 3.5 anyways) is that beautiful little thing called "Spring Attack". I cannot sing its praises highly enough, because it means you can attack in the middle of movement. If your movement is buffed (You would reasonably assume someone attacking a wizard to be at least *somewhat* buffed by magic items and the like), then you're gold. Guerilla style attacks while the poor bugger can't move away, and then can't see you because you're about 5 or 6 pillars away.

    Now, for the most part, we've been discussing the highly paranoid wizard who spends several hours in the morning casting all sorts of rollocks on himself before he's ready to face the day. If it's the stay at home wizard, that's cool, but if he's an adventuring wizard, he's not going to have that chance every time. Plus, in 3.5, there is that magic period where if he does cast any spells, he's going to lose out tomorrow. That period is a whole 8 hours. As people have noted, this is essentially a big game of cat and mouse, and 8 hours is a nice time to whittle him down. Most players I know are incredibly cautious with their spellcasting during that time. Let's see, what else do we have scroll wise... oh, yes, there are indeed spells to prevent *any* teleportation, expensive, but well worth it in our "Hall of Pillars" scenario. Any contingency relies upon the spell working, and if you properly prepare the area moments beforehand by making sure they can't teleport away (a basic idea, I would have thought), or, even better, something nasty happens if they try, then you're gold. Lemme just poke through the RAW a bit for more ideas... But any decently levelled rogue will be able to kibble a wizard with casting of, first, some sort of scroll of teleport blocking (I believe there's a really nasty one in the RAW, expensive as all hell to buy as a scroll, but, against a high level wizard, a must), a scroll of AMF (which will deny them most of their abilities), and then kibble them at your leisure... to be honest, after you've teleport locked them, you don't really need anything else in the "Hall of Pillars" scenario, but AMF is nice insurance.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    ...Why is the wizard in the Hall of Pillars at all? I mean, it's undeniably a great scenario to fight them in, but I'm not sure why you'd face them there at all.

    And it isn't like wizards are without options. Calling spells are a good way to make sure you've got stuff you can do without line of effect. Heck, it's not like it's easy to keep track of the wizard in the Hall if he starts teleporting around a reasonable amount.
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    1. Be a rogue.

    2. UMD a scroll of "Teleport through Time".

    3. Kill the Wizard at Level 1.

    4. ???

    5. Profit Paradox!
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    Well, somebody asked how to kill a wizard without being one, and that is, far and away, the best method. It doesn't require a hall of pillars (which can be found, judging by a lot of pre-printed adventures, in nearly any dungeon in existence, and a lot of other buildings too), it just needs somewhere where it's too dangerous to cast fireballs and the like, but also has lots of places a rogue can run to and from (preferably with Spring Attack) without being in LOS. Sure, there are some offensive spells that require LOS, but the fact is, he's teleport locked (which means he ain't goin' *anywhere*), he's AMFed (which means he's got no spellcasting), and nobody can call "**** move" because it's not a dead magic area, and the guy was specifically looking to kill him, so would have planned accordingly.

    How you get them there is a problem, true. But once they're in the right spot, something not unlike that Hall of Pillars scenario, they're dead meat. One teleport lock scroll, one AMF scroll, kibble at leisure, all good.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

    @hall of pillars:
    The wizard could easily demolish or bypass your hall (one maw of chaos and you can kiss your pillars goodbye, dispel/disjunction kills your anti-teleport). It's too easy to see it coming, and if the wizard is at all paranoid, he won't show up in that hall.
    High level magic ignores location-based obstacles easily.


    The way I see it, the wizard is playing a very unfair game (with respect to power levels, not to the challenge).
    He has spells that help him strategically, retreat spells, I-ignore-your-attack spells, I-know-what/where/when/who spells, teleports and a secure base of operations (extradimensional/planar areas)
    To beat that spent on defense, you need to be better at it than he is. And that means out-wizarding him.

    In an actual campaign, any wizard on full defense could be impossible to kill but also operates at a fraction of his capacity than if he didn't have a perfect defense.
    Last edited by jseah; 2010-09-18 at 01:00 PM.

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