Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[darkpuppy]

That's the thing with wizards. I don't know what kind of games people have been playing, but I've never actually met this hypothetical uber-wizard people have been talking about. For example, you mention destroying the hall of pillars. Have you seriously met a character that paranoid? If so, what kind of killer GM did they play with?

EDIT: Because I really see this scenario happening... "OMG, *one* rogue hit me, I must use an incredibly destructive spell to hopefully kill him and/or level the playing field!"... what generally actually happens is "Oh, one rogue, let's try and find the bugger and silence him!"... another key point is that, with a rogue, with a decently high attack and damage roll, will silence said wizard on the first try. Against a rogue who gets his sneak attack, which does a minimum of 1d4+stupid D6 against 13D4 + a maximum of 13... Hrm, yeah, the guy's gonna survive.

The wizard is only playing an unfair game when he has time to prepare. Give him no chance to prepare, and he's screwed. Want him dead? attack him all day, then all night. He'll quickly run out of spells, and die horribly. Or, as already noted, Teleport Lock *then* AMF. No matter how paranoid they are, if there's a surprise round, they're disabled. That can be done with two people at most, who can then mercilessly slay the uppity git at their leisure.

And this, unsurprisingly, leads me to the main problem with this thread. We know nothing of the play style of this hypothetical wizard, and without knowing anything, can't actually help beyond stupidly elaborate plans with almost Fiat-like "No, but" reactions. For a good 80% of the 13th level or higher wizards I've played/run games in, nowhere near this amount of planning was necessary.

EDIT: I'm also surprised no-one caugh the flaw of "Teleport Lock then AMF"... Still, tbh, only teleport lock is actually *needed*, as the main problem is stopping them getting away. The rest is all making sure the bugger doesn't get off something stupidly powerful, like the previously mentioned "Maw of Chaos"... AMF would handle that, but then contingency *might* work (see? we're looking at might work, and people call it as "no, won't help at all")... the fact is, a wizard requiring this insane amount of planning is not fun.

EDIT 2: The maths of the first attack - Sneak attack damage, on a successful hit, at 13th level, is 1d6+7d6 for a short sword. This is between 8 and 48 damage. Compare this to a 13th level mage's hitpoints, which equal 4+12d4+(CON MODx13). Considering CON is often a dump stat for wizards, We're looking at between 15 (possibly even 14) and 78. The median here is 32.5, compared to the sneak attack median of 28. Regardless, within 2, maybe 3 attacks, the guy is down. The rogue may well die, but, let's face it, the wizard is dead and/or severely wounded, and can't go anywhere until the teleport lock is over and/or dispelled.

EDIT 3: Yes, Maw of Chaos is a really good idea, looking at it. No matter where he casts it from this hall of pillars, he's going to be somewhere in the AoE... which will kill him too.

[The Glyphstone]

If a wizard is dumping CON, they're morons and deserve to be murdered. Wizards are SAD (single-ability dependent) on INT...Dex isn't even necessary except for Rays while go against touch AC anyways. A wizard is going to have at least a 14 CON, more likely at least an 18+ with magic items.

[vrellum]

In my experience con is not a dump stat for wizards. It is their second highest. So a wizard will probably have around 59 hp (13d4+26) or more. Making it pretty hard for the rogue to kill him in one round, but possible if the rogue gets a surprise round and a full attack.

[darkpuppy]

I stand corrected on CON, but in any case, in any scenario even vaguely approximating that one, he's dead meat. You make sure he can't teleport, you make sure he can't use AoE, you kill him at your leisure, and, frankly, the rogue is the best man for the job, considering sneak attack.

EDIT: Also, if he doesn't know the teleport block spell's been cast, he won't know until the fatal moment of truth. Which will, indeed, be suitably fatal.

[Radar]

The problem is, you have to either use Dimensional Anchor on the wizard directly or force him into Dimensional Lock area, which is quite small. A psion with a readied Divert Teleport would be the best counter, but a psion is a full caster class, so it doesn't prove much. This is still doable - you made the wizard stay. Next part will be a lot harder: disable the wizard. The main problem with AMF is, it's a personal spell, so you have to cast it on yourself and hug the wizard, which might be difficult, since the wizard will already be aware of your presence.

The funniest thing about taking down a wizard is that in order to do so, you have to fake being a wizard yourself. Let's face it, without UMD, there would be no discussion. In a direct fight, it's wizard against WBL, so IMO the best solutions so far are indirect - diplomancy or getting yourself immune to divinations, obscure your alligment and do a classic poison/dagger assasination.

[darkpuppy]

Yeah, and, let's face it, even in RAW, there are some nice poisons. FR (which somebody else introduced into the discussion) has even more. Of course, one sneak attack with certain Drowish poisons, one failed CON check, and BAM! No more spellcasting!

[137beth]

The problem is, you have to either use Dimensional Anchor on the wizard directly or force him into Dimensional Lock area, which is quite small. A psion with a readied Divert Teleport would be the best counter, but a psion is a full caster class, so it doesn't prove much. This is still doable - you made the wizard stay. Next part will be a lot harder: disable the wizard. The main problem with AMF is, it's a personal spell, so you have to cast it on yourself and hug the wizard, which might be difficult, since the wizard will already be aware of your presence.

The funniest thing about taking down a wizard is that in order to do so, you have to fake being a wizard yourself. Let's face it, without UMD, there would be no discussion. In a direct fight, it's wizard against WBL, so IMO the best solutions so far are indirect - diplomancy or getting yourself immune to divinations, obscure your alligment and do a classic poison/dagger assasination.

For this thread, I am assuming that the wizard is not prepared specifically for this fight, but you ARE. The wizard hasn't necessarily prepared Maw of Chaos just because they are in the hall of pillars. The rogue-method mentioned above works well because the wizard is not expecting the attack.

[darkpuppy]

Actually, the only original specifications were Tier 1 (AKA Lvl 13+) and "Adequate prepared defences." To which the rogue method is actually a bit overkill. But hey, the important parts are covered:

1) Make sure LOS isn't given in most rounds.
2) Make sure AOE isn't an option.
3) Make sure teleporting out isn't an option.
4) Kill him dead.

[Gametime]

You forgot "get a high enough touch AC or other protection against attacks so that you won't be stunned, blinded, or just knocked unconscious by a readied action ray the wizard throws at you after you attack."

[olentu]

It is really missing some of the most important things such as finding the wizard or since it requires a set location getting the wizard to actually go to the location on your terms without foreknowledge of the attack. Not to mention the parts it does cover it does not do such a good job on doing so.

[darkpuppy]

I sort of had the impression from the OP that the wizard's location was already known. As to touch attack, so long as the wizard doesn't find you (which is a problem that can be solved with more rogues) you're not requiring it. And seriously, any rogue with a sideline in killing wizards is going to have protection against magic, be it spell resistance amulet of plus stupid, or some other gubbins.

And I am curious, olentu, as to what specific problems you'd like to raise with the solution I presented. Are they adequate defenses, or rules, or "paranoid wizard" defence? Getting the wizard to go to the location can be done in any number of ways without arousing the poor sod's suspicions.

EDIT: Sudden realisation. 3 rogues, 1 behind, 2 flanking, if you do it just right (two of the rogues aided by something to conceal them from the inopportune spot check in addition to the listen check the first rogue may well have to be kitted against), it's a triple surprise attack.

[olentu]

I sort of had the impression from the OP that the wizard's location was already known. As to touch attack, so long as the wizard doesn't find you (which is a problem that can be solved with more rogues) you're not requiring it. And seriously, any rogue with a sideline in killing wizards is going to have protection against magic, be it spell resistance amulet of plus stupid, or some other gubbins.

And I am curious, olentu, as to what specific problems you'd like to raise with the solution I presented. Are they adequate defenses, or rules, or "paranoid wizard" defence? Getting the wizard to go to the location can be done in any number of ways without arousing the poor sod's suspicions.

Well first of all if the wizards location is known that does not mean he is in the elaborate trap and it does not mean that it will stay known for long. One of the best defenses is keeping people you dislike from knowing where you are so the wizard will probably move around a lot and thus one needs some way to get the wizard into the elaborate trap. Also one needs to consider that being a wizard and being best when prepared divination is likely to play a factor and if being discounted there would need to be a reason.

One also needs to for example show how they are going to keep the wizard from just walking out of either the room or the dimensional lock. The lock is easy to walk out of being an emanation since one can thus just walk behind a pillar. There then there are alternative movement modes to consider.

Then there is also the assumption that the wizard is going to blindly walk into a shimmering emerald field without figuring out what it is first or not notice getting hit with a magic ray.

Then there are questions of astral projections, bound and animated minions, purchased or created minions, and probably several other things that I am forgetting.

[darkpuppy]

Now those are, for the most part, reasonable questions, and thank you for raising them. Animal companions and summoned monsters are the worst, I'll agree.

To be honest, the main philosophy when dealing with a wizard is to alpha strike the guy before he can react (IE- in a single surprise round, which, practically, only three thieves sneak attacking at once can do without recourse to other wizards). As to not constantly knowing where the wizard is, I agree, this is a problem, but with a reasonable lure, not an insurmountable one. The trick there is to make sure the lure reaches the wizard, and making sure the bugger bites.

[Dada]

As has been pointed out, there is no sure way to kill a über-wizard. Celerity, Teleport, Contigencies and Nerveskitter gives him too many outs, even when surprised. That doesn't mean you can't beat him, however. You can still win the encounter.

So, you're dungeon crawling to find the MacGuffin. Bruce Wayne, the wizard shows up to stop you from (doing plot relevant stuff). If you trigger his contigencies or make him teleport out in some other way, well, you might not have killed him, but he didn't stop you from doing what you wanted either. If he stays and fights, well, then it'll probably be the most difficult fight of your career, but as long as the wizard actually wants to stay and fight, he can be killed.

If the wizard is not trying to stop you, but you have to stop him, then it's the same situation. If he teleports out, then he'll be at least inconvenienced, hopefully more. If he actually has to stay and fight to achieve his goal of world domination, then you might kill him if you're good enough.

Bottom line, you can't reliably kill über-wizard, but sometimes you don't have to. Get him in a situation, where he can't afford to just run away once things get threatening.

[Jarrick]

How to beat a wizard with a dread necromancer.

Step 1: Find the bodies of several departed storm giants in a storm giant burial ground. Make them your skeletal minions. (Alternately, use planar binding to summon jarilith demons (MM2) and do the same. Augmented critical 18-20/x3 on 2 claws 2d6 and bite 2d8 ftw. Bonus points if you can make them bone creatures and rebuke to control two or more of them to retain pounce and rake and othe special stuff.)

Step 2: Befriend the target wizard, offering to be his cohort and obey his every awsome whim. Since wizards like nothing more than to be flattered by thier lessers, he will gladly accept. Maxing out bluff doesnt hurt either.

Step 3: Offer to use your necrotic cyst (libris mortis) spells to control an astral dreadnaught (Manual of the planes) to use against the wizards enemies if he could just use planar binding to conjure it in so your storm giants can subdue it. Bluff is a class skill for the dread necromancer.

Step 4: Once it regains consciousness after being encysted, use your 7th level necrotic tumor spell to make the A.D. look at the wizard with its 150ft antimagic eye cone from above while your storm giants grapple and stab the wizard with very big spears. (Spears and other peircing weapons tend to leave corpses in good shape for animating).

Step 5: (Optional) Take the wizard's dungeon for your own and use the wizard's intact skeleton to serve drinks to your guests and the rest of your adventuring party.

(Actually happened in game, more or less.)

[olentu]

How to beat a wizard with a dread necromancer.

Step 1: Find the bodies of several departed storm giants in a storm giant burial ground. Make them your skeletal minions. (Alternately, use planar binding to summon jarilith demons (MM2) and do the same. Augmented critical 18-20/x3 on 2 claws 2d6 and bite 2d8 ftw. Bonus points if you can make them bone creatures and rebuke to control two or more of them to retain pounce and rake and othe special stuff.)

Step 2: Befriend the target wizard, offering to be his cohort and obey his every awsome whim. Since wizards like nothing more than to be flattered by thier lessers, he will gladly accept. Maxing out bluff doesnt hurt either.

Step 3: Offer to use your necrotic cyst (libris mortis) spells to control an astral dreadnaught (Manual of the planes) to use against the wizards enemies if he could just use planar binding to conjure it in so your storm giants can subdue it. Bluff is a class skill for the dread necromancer.

Step 4: Once it regains consciousness after being encysted, use your 7th level necrotic tumor spell to make the A.D. look at the wizard with its 150ft antimagic eye cone from above while your storm giants grapple and stab the wizard with very big spears.

Step 5: (Optional) Take the wizard's dungeon for your own and use the wizard's intact skeleton to serve drinks to your guests and the rest of your adventuring party.

(Actually happened in game, more or less.)

Eh if the wizard is that foolish you could probably just win by walking up and casting antimagic field off a scroll.

[Gametime]

Actually, assuming the wizard is an NPC, it's a perfectly valid tactic. NPCs have few defenses against absurd Bluff or Diplomacy checks, except absurd Sense Motive checks or DM fiat.

Of course, there's always Zone of Truth, and any sufficiently paranoid wizard would probably make you repeat your summoning plan in one.

[darkpuppy]

Actually, assuming the wizard is an NPC, it's a perfectly valid tactic. NPCs have few defenses against absurd Bluff or Diplomacy checks, except absurd Sense Motive checks or DM fiat.

Of course, there's always Zone of Truth, and any sufficiently paranoid wizard would probably make you repeat your summoning plan in one.

And this is why I showed that one plan and have largely left the thread except to see if anyone can agree on a better method... those words "sufficiently paranoid", which seems to imply every PC above Lvl 10 is a bundle of nerves leaping at every encounter... It kinda annoys me that every single plan made so far has some spell that people suddenly bring up, forgetting several things about magic, since we're talking about wizards:

1) The 2 pages per level of spell in spellbook, avg spellbook being 100 pages, avg page cost for writing = 100gp. 1 page per 0 lvl spell.
2) Any decent GM is not going to be handing out spells like candy.
3) Any decent GM is not going to make players this paranoid.
4) That magic 8 hours where any "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to cast any spells unless he's on the brink of death, for fear of losing his potential the next day.
5) Limited spell memorisation per day. A "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to be able to fight his way out of a paper bag if he has *all* these defensive/highly situational spells memorised. And remember, zone of truth works both ways. If a genuine messenger turns up and he regularly casts zone of truth, the local rulers and wizards are going to shun the bugger.

EDIT: and Zone of Truth is a Cleric/Paladin spell!!!

[Kyrthain]

I don't think this scenario is dealing with a standard pc wizard anymore, but rather the archetypal paranoid batman. This wizard's certainly got a blessed book to hold all his spells, and as he is functioning on RAW alone, eliminating 2 and 3.

As for 4: Rope Trick

And finally, he'll have a ton of contingencies, so spells memorized/day will have more options

All of your points are perfectly valid against wizards living under the rules of a sane DM, but in this hypothetical scenario, the wizard has the advantage.

[Gametime]

1) The 2 pages per level of spell in spellbook, avg spellbook being 100 pages, avg page cost for writing = 100gp. 1 page per 0 lvl spell.

Which is why a Blessed Book is a great investment.

2) Any decent GM is not going to be handing out spells like candy.

That has nothing to do with the capabilities of a wizard, though. Further, there are actually rules in the DMG for availability of items in cities of a certain size. Access to a metropolis is access to the vast majority of scrolls. Denying access to these is fine for a campaign, but not for judging the theoretical capabilities of a wizard. Since we're talking about a theoretical wizard, not a specific one, individualized DM fiat doesn't really enter into it.

3) Any decent GM is not going to make players this paranoid.

Why is it that wizards who prepare elaborate defense mechanisms are considered unreasonable, but a rogue who designs an elaborate trap involving a specific type of architecture, several feats, and multiple scrolls isn't?

4) That magic 8 hours where any "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to cast any spells unless he's on the brink of death, for fear of losing his potential the next day.

Those magic eight hours are going to be spent in a Magnificent Mansion as soon as the wizard can cast 7th level spells. This one doesn't even really count as "paranoid;" immunity to ambushes while vulnerable is just good common sense for any wizard, whether adventuring or retired.

5) Limited spell memorisation per day. A "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to be able to fight his way out of a paper bag if he has *all* these defensive/highly situational spells memorised. And remember, zone of truth works both ways. If a genuine messenger turns up and he regularly casts zone of truth, the local rulers and wizards are going to shun the bugger.

Two things.

First of all, wizards get a lot of spells by the mid to high levels. Just saying "Oh, he won't have enough spells!" rings a little hollow. We haven't even been discussing that many specific spells; an active Contingency and some form of teleportation should be satisfactory for the majority of days. Fill up your slots with some save-or-dies and no-save-just-die spells and you're set.

Second, scrolls provide a reasonably cheap way to keep fringe or situational spells on hand at all times without needing to spend spell slots on them.

EDIT: and Zone of Truth is a Cleric/Paladin spell!!!

And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.

I don't think this scenario is dealing with a standard pc wizard anymore, but rather the archetypal paranoid batman. This wizard's certainly got a blessed book to hold all his spells, and as he is functioning on RAW alone, eliminating 2 and 3.

Even if you aren't hyper-paranoid, why wouldn't you buy a Blessed Book? It eliminates annoying microfinances. That's nothing but a good thing, not from a power perspective but from a laziness perspective!

[olentu]

[And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.

Yeah this is basically what I mean. Wizards have many ways to investigate and with a bit of work can get many more. Not investigating a plan that puts you in the room with some guy controlling a big antimagic monster is beyond foolish.

Not to mention that it would have been better for the wizard to mind control the monster himself even if the dread necromancer had been completely loyal. This is because in one case an enemy using some method of controlling the dread necromancer gets a free astral dreadnought and in the other the just the dread necromancer.

[darkpuppy]

I have, it must be said, never met this "paranoid batman" wizard which these guys are obviously referring to, nor, indeed the trapsmith rogue who spends several weeks making a trap for a random encounter (or so it seems). I have never encountered this "Blessed Spellbook", but it sounds like a bit OP to me... after all, half the reason the wizard is not OP is because they don't have access to every single bloody spell they encounter. It's perfectly fine for NPCs to build stupidly elaborate traps, but the point here is people want challenge, not the Ungodly Paranoid Batman Wizard of DM Fiat.

As to Magnificent Mansion, he can, by RAW, only cast that once every two days, because once he's cast a 7th level spell in that magic 8 hours *before* his rest and remembering, it's gone for the next day. So half the time, he's at any bugger's mercy every night. Unless he casts a lesser level "safe home" spell, which will still leave him out a spell. As to the spells he has remaining, if he goes with a teleport spell, that's instantly nixed in the Hall of Pillars Surprise Round. Go Team Murderer. I've also never heard of this "stacked contingency" thing people are banging on about here, all I know for sure is that Contingency is a 6th level spell (one of his 2), and lasts 1 day/level or until discharged, and does not allow further contingency spells cast upon it. Looking at the core PHB, the wiz has a choice of Teleport (5th), or Teleport without Error (7th, which, by olunte's theory, he won't have.)

The fact is, all these spells are worth jack with three rogues, one surprise round, and one teleport blocking spell (which may or may not require a fourth bloke. What the hell, why not?). As already noted, the hard part is getting them there, but unless the wizard truly is a hyper-paranoid Batman Wizard, the right lure means they come like an insect to a sundew.

And where did this summon outsider business come from?

[DranWork]

Surely in D&D there's a way to turn back time, if so go back to when its an infant in its mothers womb and murder the mother. We must put a stop to the wizard threat before they become a wizard after all.

[Frozen_Feet]

You might want to give it a rest now. A wizard with unlimited spell access and enough time is theoretically omnipotent and omniscient. Yes, in practice, there is a limit to what any person can think of or prepare, leaving enough leeway for the potential destruction of a wizard character - but since there is a near-limitless number of combinations of possible situation, trying to nail down a general strategy is pointless, because there is none.

If you have exact level, spell knowledge, location and other resources known for a Tier 1 character, there's a possible tactic for that situation. Otherwise you're trying to score between moving goalposts.

(Those extra Contingencies are Crafted, which are just that. You can have per character level. I remember jack squat about rules governing them besides that.)

[olentu]

The blessed book is a core magical item so while it may have never come up it is not uncommon.

It is not 8 hours before rest but rather 8 hours before spending that one hour to prepare and so not a problem unless one is interrupting their rest and casting spells. But even if it was a problem magical mansion is 2 hours per level and so has more than enough time for waiting before getting spells even if it was a problem.

The stacked contingencies would probably be from crafted contingent spells and other things such as instant refuge that allow for contingent spells.

And again you have still not given any reason that a wizard is going to blindly walk into some room without proper precautions. So what would make a wizard charge into a large pillared hall without any precaution, divination, minions, scouting, and so forth. Not to mention with a contingency worded quite badly. Really anything that pressing is obviously so important that if the wizard fails the whole multiverse is destroyed or something on that level. And if it is that important then the wizard had better well be as careful as possible being the last hope for all life.



Now that I think about it in light of this "Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all)" the discussion should really be about a level 20 wizard.


The summoning outsiders was about a dread necromancer and a foolish wizard.

[darkpuppy]

Well said, Frozen Feet. Removing myself from the thread. One interesting note about contingencies: It requires a focus to be carried on them, or the contingency doesn't work. Frickin' A.

[Hida Reju]

Well I found the Warlock invocation I was looking for Voracious dispelling it's a greater charm that acts like dispel magic and does damage equal to the lvl of ever dispelled spell on the target. No save on damage done.

If some wizard is crazy enough to have even 10 craft contingent spells up not counting any other buffs averaging lvl 4 spells that is a potential 40 points of damage not counting removing said contingencies.

I think by optimizing you can get the +to your dispel high enough to crush most spells by that time. Sure it would not work past lvl 15 but at 13 or bellow it has a decent chance of working on multiple spells. Especially if the caster lvl of the crafted contingent spells was lowered to save cost.

[Claudius Maximus]

You might want to give it a rest now. A wizard with unlimited spell access and enough time is theoretically omnipotent and omniscient. Yes, in practice, there is a limit to what any person can think of or prepare, leaving enough leeway for the potential destruction of a wizard character - but since there is a near-limitless number of combinations of possible situation, trying to nail down a general strategy is pointless, because there is none.

If you have exact level, spell knowledge, location and other resources known for a Tier 1 character, there's a possible tactic for that situation. Otherwise you're trying to score between moving goalposts.

(Those extra Contingencies are Crafted, which are just that. You can have per character level. I remember jack squat about rules governing them besides that.)

This is very true. I was considering making a short campaign/one-shot in which you guys try to kill a 20th level tier 1 caster of my design without resorting to tier 1 casting (you know, one of those Doc Roc style "test" games), but I realized that even if I won, people would just complain that it's invalid because you could have used such-and-such or that I was using tactics too cheesy to prove anything, ect.

I think this is an argument that can never really end. If people are playing at a reasonable level of optimization, a T1 character can be beat by some method or other. If we're going above PO though, everything becomes so arbitrarily large or infinite, and everyone is so powerful, that it's impossible to make any sort of point stick.

[137beth]

True, you do not know what the wizard has prepared. But they also do not know what you have prepared. Therefore, if you use a strategy that "works unless they use this one spell", you have a legitimate chance of winning. Now, if you will only except an absolute guaranteed win, then it is impossible no matter what tier each character is: a commoner still has a chance to beat a wizard if the wizard rolls a natural 1 on every roll and the commoner rolls a natural 20 every time:|

[Jarrick]

And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.

Zone of truth? By an npc caster? That has a will save of what, 13? I suppose the DrN could roll a one...

But anyways. Batman wizard has one disadvantage that I've noticed as this discussion goes on: No one person has a perfect solution to everything. Everyone has a lot of good tricks and strategies for the paranoid batman wizard, but I dont think anyone here can name every single one of them, or always be able to think of them in advance or on the spot when the need arises. Wizards are only as powerful as the players can make them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the batman wizard were played by the playground, it would always win, but if played by any single person, there's room for error which a clever PC could exploit.

I also agree that these wizards can be defeated on a case-by-case basis, based on mitigating factors and circumstances. The wizard in my previous example was trying to fight a losing war against several good-aligned churches (read: clerics and paladins who didnt like his dealing with and use of fiends and evil dragons to wage war) and needed all the help he could get.