Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Killer Angel]

Force projectiles penetrate windwall. If you have arguments against that. The rogue simply remains hidden until the wizard is in public, and attacks him while hidden, allowing him the first action.

I thought it was obvious the sniper won't attack a wizard in a duel style.

Leaving aside the force effect Vs windwall, in this kind of thread, usually the wizard use, as a basic combo, Foresight plus Celerity, so he's not surprised neither flat footed, and goes first.

[BeholderSlayer]

Contact Other Plane and Shapechange also ensure that a high level wizard is never surprised, never caught flat footed. Contact Other Plane reveals threats that will happen, and even if the rogue somehow circumvents this the wizard remains shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise so he always acts in any surprise round.

Also, a high level wizard is completely and utterly immune to sneak attack. Heavy Fortification guarantees this.

[Tiki Snakes]

I still think ubercharge the guy on his shopping trip is the way. He'll have scried extensively, but the event he will be informed about if he prys enough to identify the threat, is that he will be attacked by an angry mop-weilding fellow dressed as a bunny-rabbit.

Sure, he's entirely likely to be able to jaunt away, or obliterate you instantly.
But if your disguise makes you look rediculous enough, you may just trigger enough wizardly arrogance and confusion that you'll get a hit in after all. And even if you are using the Janitor's mop, if you are doing several hundred power attack damage with it, he'd be a dead wizard.

Feels more likely to work, in a weird way, than any combination of rogue/s being all serious and competant.

[Adumbration]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.

[Radar]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.

I guess most of them would just fire a Celerity or Teleport spell. The real trick is in proper wording of all those contingencies in order to cover all possible threats.

[Adumbration]

I guess most of them would just fire a Celerity or Teleport spell. The real trick is in proper wording of all those contingencies in order to cover all possible threats.

I'm mucking about a character build to assassinate a Schrödinger wizard, and this pleases me immensely.

I would be very interested in seeing specific wordings and contingencies, to get a proper idea of how much a wizard can be prepared against.

For the record, I think I've already penetrated the Magnificent Mansion and Astral Projection problems. Now I'm trying to deal with the contingencies, which is immensely more difficult due to the sheer vagueness of the wizard builds.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm mucking about a character build to assassinate a Schrödinger wizard, and this pleases me immensely.

I would be very interested in seeing specific wordings and contingencies, to get a proper idea of how much a wizard can be prepared against.

For the record, I think I've already penetrated the Magnificent Mansion and Astral Projection problems. Now I'm trying to deal with the contingencies, which is immensely more difficult due to the sheer vagueness of the wizard builds.

I'd like to see how you think you're penetrating a Magnificent Mansion and getting around Astral Projection.

[Adumbration]

I'd like to see how you think you're penetrating a Magnificent Mansion and getting around Astral Projection.

Silver key 10th level capstone Master of Doors gets you in MM.

Master of Doors (Su): At 10th level, you have reached the pinnacle of a silver key's prowess, this potent ability allows you to make use of any magic door or portal you come across as though you had the specific ability to do so. In particular, you can bypass arcane lock spells as though you yourself had cast them, ignore glyphs of warding as though you knew the password (even glyphs that have no password), and bypass the magic of a hold portal as though you could cast knock at will.

Your power even extends to portals created or maintained by magic. You can follow another character through a phase door, and can enter a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, a dragonmark demesne (see page 149), and similar structures regardless of whether the caster designated you as one of the creatures able to enter. This ability does not confer any advantage when dealing with mundane locks or doors.

Stealing, bribing or being a Githyanki will get you the Silver Sword to sever the cord that binds him, instantly killing him. If I can get close enough.

At the moment I'm wrestling with the aforementioned contingencies and locating the MM. Elemental Weirds or a hired psion may see some use there.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.

Dimension door is pretty popular, as are other get-the-heck-outta-dodge spells. A lot are keyed to verbal commands, but obviously other contingencies will be in place in case of areas of silence and whatnot. Basically anything that keeps ol' wizzy alive long enough to act.

[Adumbration]

Dimension door is pretty popular, as are other get-the-heck-outta-dodge spells. A lot are keyed to verbal commands, but obviously other contingencies will be in place in case of areas of silence and whatnot. Basically anything that keeps ol' wizzy alive long enough to act.

Are Craft Continged spells tied to your highest caster level, or do they generally use the lowest possible (following the general rules for magic items)?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Silver key 10th level capstone Master of Doors gets you in MM.

Stealing, bribing or being a Githyanki will get you the Silver Sword to sever the cord that binds him, instantly killing him. If I can get close enough.

At the moment I'm wrestling with the aforementioned contingencies and locating the MM. Elemental Weirds or a hired psion may see some use there.

If you are planning on being a master of doors, you have to be a dwarf (no being a Githyanki). As for penetrating the MM, what happens when the MM in question is on the wizard's private demiplane?

And forget contingencies, you still have to deal with foresight and celerity, don't you?

EDIT:

Are Craft Continged spells tied to your highest caster level, or do they generally use the lowest possible (following the general rules for magic items)?

Skimming the text in Complete Arcane, it looks like it's whatever caster level you were when you crafted the contingent spell. Not sure how much that matters, unless you're planning on using counterspells.

[Adumbration]

If you are planning on being a master of doors, you have to be a dwarf (no being a Githyanki). As for penetrating the MM, what happens when the MM in question is on the wizard's private demiplane?

And forget contingencies, you still have to deal with foresight and celerity, don't you?

I was presuming that the wizard's corporeal body was in the demiplane, not the Astral projection - it hardly makes any sense for such an arrangement, considering those multiple high level spells you'll need to use to just to get back to your original position (at least 2 Plane shifts and Teleport without Errors a day). Besides, no one ever mentioned that before I brought up Silver key.

3 levels in Stoneblessed will take care of race requirement. I'm also presuming that LA buyoff is in effect, unless you want to reduce the wizard to level 19 due to the XP costs of the contingencies, and barring Thought bottle and other shenanigans like that. (But the main plan is to steal or bribe for the use of Silver Sword. Shouldn't be so hard, being a rogueish type.)

Still working on celerity and foresight - like I said, the build is still in progress. Looking into Hellbreaker at the moment for Telepathic Static and Stowaway to foil divinations and teleportations.

EDIT: Apparently Silver sword has listed stats and cost in XPH, so I'll just add that to my WBL thank you very much.

EDIT 2: Mantle of Darkness should come in handy, too. Maybe get the Dark template via the collar, just in case though.

[Sewercop]

Best way to kill a tier 1 caster? Play in a game that dont use TO characters in play.

Short answer, you cant if hes a paranoid crazy persisted shapechange turtled astral projected contact other plane algorythmic foresighted celerity tinfoil forbidden mindraped genesis wizard thingy. And you have not even said hello to his simulacrum clone familiar gated legions of friendship cohorts and the tricks up his sleeve yet.
Wait...
You know, he probably would let you kill him just because he is a guy that just dont care bout death.He can spare 6 seconds of eternity to never have to bother with you again.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Just had a stupid thought that's surprisingly relevant:

What happens if the caster is a Lich? Then you'll have to find and destroy his phylactery, destroy him, resurrect him, and then kill him. You can't kill what's already (un)dead.

[TheGeckoKing]

Right, i'm going to TRY something a bit less cheaper than time travel.

1. Become a lich. Can't be too hard. DN 20? That template class?
2. Make your Phylactry immune to everything divine/arcane and/or hostile(even passively). If you have to, use TtT, go back to the beginning of civilization, and spend 1000's of years to make it indestructable. Your a lich. That's what Liches do. They do things slowly.
3. Pay Asmodeus himself in other people's souls/platinum coins/NOT your soul
to protect your Phylactery from whatever might attack said pylactery. Spend more 1000's of years before the wizard is born via TtT to make an indestructable contract that the bugger can't twist. Offer that Asmodeus can wear your phylactery as a ring/necklace/bling, but that it can't effect your (ironclad) contract.
4. Make a deal with Boccob that you'll retrive a lost piece of magic text via Time Travel for your Phylactery's immunity to Disjunction/Other such things. Again. Your a Lich. Doing things the slow way is YOUR way.
5. Somehow get immunity to turning/rebuking. You've gotten this far. Your nearly there. Hell, your probably Epic by now, so it can't be too hard.
6. Laugh as the Wizzy kills you, only for you to appear at Asmodeus' side 10 days later. Said Wizard tries to Disjunct the phylactery, only for it to fail, then
he tries to kill Asmodeus. Enjoy the Curb Stomp Battle, and then share cookies with Asmodeus. Rince and repeat for any other bugger that wants to mess with you.

Now, yes, this long winded and probably un-viable, but it's a Lv20 Wizard that's trying to be a know-it-all. He had it coming.

[BeholderSlayer]

Right, i'm going to TRY something a bit less cheaper than time travel.

1. Become a lich. Can't be too hard. DN 20? That template class?
2. Make your Phylactry immune to everything divine/arcane and/or hostile(even passively). If you have to, use TtT, go back to the beginning of civilization, and spend 1000's of years to make it indestructable. Your a lich. That's what Liches do. They do things slowly.
3. Pay Asmodeus himself in other people's souls/platinum coins/NOT your soul
to protect your Phylactery from whatever might attack said pylactery. Spend more 1000's of years before the wizard is born via TtT to make an indestructable contract that the bugger can't twist. Offer that Asmodeus can wear your phylactery as a ring/necklace/bling, but that it can't effect your (ironclad) contract.
4. Make a deal with Boccob that you'll retrive a lost piece of magic text via Time Travel for your Phylactery's immunity to Disjunction/Other such things. Again. Your a Lich. Doing things the slow way is YOUR way.
5. Somehow get immunity to turning/rebuking. You've gotten this far. Your nearly there. Hell, your probably Epic by now, so it can't be too hard.
6. Laugh as the Wizzy kills you, only for you to appear at Asmodeus' side 10 days later. Said Wizard tries to Disjunct the phylactery, only for it to fail, then
he tries to kill Asmodeus. Enjoy the Curb Stomp Battle, and then share cookies with Asmodeus. Rince and repeat for any other bugger that wants to mess with you.

Now, yes, this long winded and probably un-viable, but it's a Lv20 Wizard that's trying to be a know-it-all. He had it coming.

I think you have drastically overrated Asmodeus.

[TheGeckoKing]

Then replace Asmodeus with a Greater Diety then.

[BeholderSlayer]

Then replace Asmodeus with a Greater Diety then.

You definitely overrated those...

[TheGeckoKing]

Come on. Your killin' me here. Right, final try. Replace said Greater Diety with Pun Pun. Now, wait a min. There are so many ways Pun Pun can exist. Therefore, it's only logical that he DOES exist, as it must of happened. It's just an inevatibility (sp?).

[Radar]

Come on. Your killin' me here. Right, final try. Replace said Greater Diety with Pun Pun. Now, wait a min. There are so many ways Pun Pun can exist. Therefore, it's only logical that he DOES exist, as it must of happened. It's just an inevatibility (sp?).

Hmm... it is a solution, since Pun-Pun is technically Tier 0.

[TheGeckoKing]

There's a Tier 0? What does that make the DM then? Tier Dee Em?
Tier -1?

[Jolly]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

[Tyndmyr]

This isn't so much a batman wizard as a shrodinger's wizard, tbh.

[Adamaro]

I read somewhere about this pillar or obelix which, if you exceed something like DC 40 knowledge (planes) you get an exact location of a MMM.
So, I was thinking of an enemy crafting enlarged as-close-as-possible to CL 100 disjunction bombs.
So, after this wizards' location is tracked, these bombs are teleported and activated into his mansion, followed by a competent killer (supported by contingency spells), supported by trace teleport spell.
So:
- wizards residence is traced
- disjunction bombs are teleported in and detonated
- kill party is teleported
- kill party is attacked - contingencies kick in
- party drains wiazards contingencies or traces him while he is planehopping untill he runs out of spells and then entombes him just in case he is a lich

[Radar]

There's a Tier 0? What does that make the DM then? Tier Dee Em?
Tier -1?

Well, by it's wording Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability can in fact give you abilities, that don't even exist like "I win, no exceptions." It can't be compared to a mere paranoid wizard, who is bound by some rules. Some builds are beyond broken - I tried to find the Neo-Terminator (supposedly the only build capable of actually fighting with ascended Pun-Pun), but I can't find it anywhere. All I know, is that the fight ended as an epic time war with both participants abusing the Far Realms.

Also a very dirty trick.

[Sewercop]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

Hmm, from srd:
Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Since it is nonmagical, it can’t be dispelled; however, any effect that suppresses or counters mind-affecting effects will affect it normally. A fanatic NPC’s attitude can’t be further adjusted by the use of skills.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Diplomacy_Skill

So, if you are immune to mind affecting nothing happens. Since it`s an effect thishttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mind_Blank will make diplomacy yield nada.

And mind blank are kinda modus operandi for paranoid people in d&d.
And if the the guy you are trying to get down are a player it will never function.

[crizh]

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane denies access to all beings except the spellcaster.

Seriously?

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane grants the caster 1000 XP per minute that he is on the demiplane.

See, I can just flat make stuff up too. The DMG and Manual of the Planes give an exhaustive and detailed list of all the elements that make up the 'environment' of a plane. I didn't notice denying access on that list.

Within the D&D cosmology [] all planes have the normal time trait.

Just in case you missed that the first time I said it. One exception. Astral. Timeless.

[137beth]

While this is a legitimate house rule, keep in mind that it is a house rule and not RAW (which is part of the challenge).

.

Hence why I said we'd assume the wizard DID have bonus spells. Oh, and the wizard can keep extended foresight up 24/7, so he really doesn't need to worry about sneak attacks.


No, a demi-plane can't just deny access to everyone, though the terrain could be favorable to the caster (specifically it could boost spells of the wizard's specialty school and hurt everything else, meaning the only non-tier 1 threat in the core rules would be a sorcerer with a lot of those spells).

[BeholderSlayer]

Seriously?

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane grants the caster 1000 XP per minute that he is on the demiplane.

Experience points are not something that can be visualized by a character, so no, that doesn't work.

See, I can just flat make stuff up too. The DMG and Manual of the Planes give an exhaustive and detailed list of all the elements that make up the 'environment' of a plane. I didn't notice denying access on that list.



Just in case you missed that the first time I said it. One exception. Astral. Timeless.

The DMG also states this:

Access to demiplanes may be limited to particular locations......or particular situations

Therefore, the wizard can close his plane except on the singular situation that it is himself that grants access.

This exact quote is repeated in the Manual of the Planes on page 7.

Flowing time is explicitly outlined in the Manual of the Planes, and its uses are even specifically outlined to allow for flowing time abuse. The fact that established planes do not have the trait is irrelevant, it is an option and it may be chosen.

The quote regarding the D&D cosmology is irrelevant, as it is focused on planes, not demiplanes.

[jseah]

I read somewhere about this pillar or obelix which, if you exceed something like DC 40 knowledge (planes) you get an exact location of a MMM.

This is an Obelisk, as planar touchstone from Manual of the Planes (IIRC anyway)

A DC40 check (know. planes IIRC as well) + 8 hours concentration allows you to create a planar rift to the target plane.
This is the only way I know of to get into a Genesis Demiplane that has Forbiddence cast everywhere in it.

Unfortunately, the obelisk is a 30ft high immovable object, with a (relatively low) hardness and hp rating. IE. anyone attempting to use that obelisk will have to weather the attacks of the wizard, and more importantly, protect the obelisk from the wizard.
One of the self-simulacrums the wizard has should be tasked to continually watch the thing, since it's so dangerous. Or just outright destroy it.

Another way that the wizard could block you is to commandeer the plane itself. His simulacrum uses that check all the time to redirect the rift to his own genesis plane. The demiplane that the obelisk is on is then also Forbiddance locked to prevent anyone from getting there at all.