Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 87
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default New Base Class: The Teleporter (Version 2.3, Finished!)

    21/3/2011 - New feats added! See here for details.


    The Teleporter



    The teleporter is similar to the warmage, beguiler, or dread necromancer in that he specialises in one or two schools of arcane magic, but while warmages destroy and beguilers deceive, teleporters travel. While teleporters cannot summon energy as a wizard or sorcerer can, they can move things faster, better, more often, and more freely than any other spellcaster. Since the ability to travel is of little use without the right information, teleporters also learn divination magic to be able to communicate with and view distant lands, and as a natural consequence of their powers they become skilled at disrupting or blocking the travel magic of their enemies.

    In an adventuring party teleporters function primarily as support, transporting party members in and out of danger. They also have a limited ability to fill the roles of scout or damage dealer. While teleporters lack the firepower of most arcane casters and the restorative magic of divine ones, a surprising amount of problems can be solved by putting the right person in the right place at the right time.

    A female teleporter is sometimes called a teleportress.


    Viki, a teleporter


    Abilities: Charisma is your primary stat, as it determines the quantity and effectiveness of your spells. Constitution and Dexterity are also useful, as with any character; a teleporter has a low Hit Die and benefits from extra hit points, and their inability to wear armour makes Dexterity valuable. Intelligence is a good fourth choice, to benefit your knowledge skills.

    Races: Adaptability and wanderlust means that humans and half-elves are the most common races among teleporters, though halflings and elves also appreciate the freedom to travel in their long lifetimes. Dwarves and half-orcs rarely become teleporters due to ther less forceful personalities and a general lack of interest in seeing the world.

    Alignment: While teleporters can be of any alignment, their tendency to travel constantly and never settle down causes them to lean towards chaos. Good-aligned teleporters use their powers to move people out of danger and to help them get where they need to go, while evil teleporters commit nefarious deeds and then vanish into thin air before they can be brought to answer for their crimes. Neutral teleporters, more common than either, simply use their abilities for profit, either joining mages' guilds or the Wayfarer's Union, or working for anyone with a need for fast transport and the money to pay for it.

    The Teleporter
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Displacer field, hostile teleportation|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Abrupt Jaunt|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Advanced learning|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    ||6|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Teleportation spell power +1|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Enhanced capacity|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Advanced learning|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Dimensional Jaunt|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Dimensional freedom|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Teleportation spell power +2|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Advanced learning|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Improved enhanced capacity|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Improved Abrupt Jaunt|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Advanced learning, teleportation spell power +3|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    ||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Endless teleportation|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Greater enhanced capacity|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Advanced learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Teleportation spell power +4, dimensional mastery|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]


    Alignment: Any

    Hit Die: d6

    Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Speak Language (none), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier (x4 at first level)

    Starting Gold: 3d4 x 10 (75 gp)

    Starting Age: As sorcerer (PHB 109)


    Class Features


    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Teleporters are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. Teleporters are not proficient with any kind of armour or shield. Armour of any type interferes with a teleporter's gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A teleporter casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the teleporter spell list below. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the teleporter's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below).

    To cast a teleporter spell, you must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a teleporter's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the teleporter's Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a teleporter can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, you receive bonus spells for a high Charisma score (PHB 8).

    A teleporter need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level.

    Displacer Field (Su): While teleporters do not learn to use armour as warmages, beguilers, and dread necromancers do, and have only a fraction of the defensive spells of a wizard or sorcerer, they benefit from a powerful defensive teleportation field. When you are targeted by an attack which you are aware of (including melee and ranged attacks, as well as single-target spells and effects, but not area effects), you may attempt a displacer field check as an immediate action: roll 1d20 + your Charisma modifier + your caster level for Conjuration (teleportation) spells. The DC of this check is equal to the opposing attack roll. If the opposing attack is a spell or effect which does not use an attack roll (e.g. a single-target spell such as hold person) the DC is 11 + the spell or effect's caster level.

    If the check succeeds, and the attack is a ranged attack, spell, or effect, you may redirect the attack as you teleport the shot or spell energy elsewhere. Pick a new legal target for the attack to which you have line of sight and line of effect. If the attack used an attack roll, the result of your displacer field check becomes the new attack roll.

    Against melee attacks, the displacer field functions differently; in this case, the attacker is teleported up to 30 feet horizontally to an empty square of your choice. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the destination. If the teleport puts the attacker out of melee range, the attack misses.

    You decide whether to make your displacer field check after seeing the result of the opposing attack roll, but before damage or saving throws are rolled. If you fail your check, the attack affects you normally. This ability is an immediate action and can be activated at will.

    Example: Viki, a 6th-level teleporter, is targeted by three ranged spike attacks from a manticore. Viki's AC is 18; the manticore's attack rolls are 14, 26, and 19. The first attack misses and the second and third attacks hit. Viki decides to use her displacer field ability against the third attack and rolls a 13. Adding her Charisma modifer of +4 and her caster level of 7, this gives a final result of 24, which is enough to redirect the attack. Viki decides to redirect the attack back at the manticore, and the 24 becomes the new attack roll. Since 24 is enough to beat the manticore's AC, Viki and the manticore are hit with one spike each.

    Hostile Teleportation (Ex): A teleporter can use teleportation spells and abilities against an unwilling target, and need not accompany them on their journey. When you use a Conjuration (teleportation) spell or effect that normally requires its targets to be willing, you can attempt to affect unwilling targets as well. Unwilling targets receive a Will save; if they fail, they are teleported.

    Furthermore, when using a Conjuration (teleportation) effect which has a target of "You and touched objects or other willing creatures" you may choose to exclude yourself from the effect.

    This ability does not extend to spells gained from other spellcasting classes.

    Example: Viki, a 6th-level teleporter, casts Dimension Door against a goblin riding a worg. She succeeds on her touch attack against the goblin, and since the goblin and the worg are touching each other, she attempts to affect both of them. Viki's caster level for Conjuration (teleportation) spells is 7th, easily enough to affect both the targets. The destination she chooses is straight up at maximum range, and she chooses to exclude herself from the effect. Both the goblin and the worg receive Will saves. If they fail, they will reappear 680 feet in the air above their current location, probably with unfortunate consequences.

    Abrupt Jaunt (Su): At 2nd level, you gain the ability to teleport 10 feet as an immediate action. You can use this ability once per point of Charisma bonus per day (so a teleporter with Charisma 17 could use this ability three times per day). You can't bring other creatures with you, and you can't use this ability in response to an attack you aren't aware of.

    At 13th level, you can use this ability at will.

    Advanced Learning: At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the Conjuration or Divination school and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.

    You gain another new spell at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

    Teleportation Spell Power: At 5th level, you gain an untyped +1 bonus to your caster level for Conjuration (teleportation) spells and abilities. This bonus increases to +2 at level 10, +3 at level 15, and +4 at level 20.

    Enhanced Capacity (Ex): At 6th level, a teleporter learns to transport material more efficiently. When using any spell or effect with the teleportation descriptor that allows other creatures to be brought along (such as teleport or dimension door) the number of Medium or smaller creatures you can bring along is increased from one per three caster levels to one per two caster levels.

    At 12th level, the number increases further to one per caster level.

    At 18th level, the number becomes unlimited; you can transport any number of creatures, providing all are in contact with each other and at least one is in contact with you.

    Dimensional Jaunt: At 8th level, you gain Dimensional Jaunt as a bonus feat (Complete Mage, page 41).

    Dimensional Freedom (Ex): At 9th level, a teleporter learns to break through magical effects that would confine them. When one of your spells or abilities would otherwise be blocked by some effect which prevents extradimensional movement (such as dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, or forbiddance) you may make a caster level check, using your normal caster level for Conjuration (teleportation) spells, against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the creator of the effect. If you succeed, your spell or ability works after all. If you fail, your spell or ability is prevented as normal. This ability only works against effects which specifically block travel; it offers no protection against effects which block magic in general (such as counterspelling or antimagic field).

    Endless Teleportation (Sp): At 17th level, you gain the ability to use greater teleport as a spell-like ability at will.

    Dimensional Mastery (Ex): A 20th-level teleporter has reached the peak of his abilities. Your caster level checks for your Dimensional Freedom ability automatically succeed and you automatically overcome the spell resistance of any creature you target with a Conjuration (teleportation) effect.


    Spell List


    A teleporter's spell list is very limited, and as spontaneous casters, they are always one level behind prepared casters in terms of spell level. To make up for this, teleporters treat all spells with the Conjuration (teleportation) type as being one spell level lower than they actually are this is reflected in the table below. Note that only a teleporter benefits from this reduction: a teleporter with the Scribe Scroll feat could create a scroll of dimension door as a 3rd-level spell, but if a wizard were to write it into her spell book, it would be a 4th-level spell as normal.

    0-level: arcane mark, benign transposition (SpC), dancing lights, detect magic, hail of stone* (SpC), message, read magic
    1st-level: baleful transposition (SpC), comprehend languages, dimension hop (PHB II), identify, feather fall, mage armour, resist planar alignment (SpC), rope trick*
    2nd-level: analyze portal (SpC), anticipate teleportation (SpC), blink*, dimension step (PHB II), locate object, portal alarm (SpC), regroup, rocks fall**, scattering trap (PHB II)
    3rd-level: arcane sight, avoid planar effects (SpC), baleful blink* (PHB II), clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, dispel magic, greater mage armour (SpC), interplanar message (SpC), translocation trick (SpC), tongues
    4th-level: dimensional anchor, dimension jumper (C.Mage), dimension shuffle (PHB II), dismissal, greater blink* (SpC), greater dimension door, improved portal alarm (SpC), locate creature, plane shift, scrying, secret chest*, teleport, zone of respite (SpC)
    5th-level: contact other plane, cometfall* (SpC), greater anticipate teleportation (SpC), make manifest (SpC), prying eyes, seal portal (SpC), sending, tactical teleportation (C.Mage)
    6th-level: analyze dweomer, banishment, ethereal jaunt*, ghost trap (SpC), greater dispel magic, greater teleport, interplanar telepathic bond (SpC), mage's magnificent mansion*, phase door, planar bubble (SpC), refuge, teleport object, true seeing
    7th-level: deadfall* (SpC), greater arcane sight, greater plane shift, greater scrying, mass make manifest (SpC), maze
    8th-level: dimensional lock, discern location, etherealness*, gate***, greater dimension jumper (C.Mage), greater prying eyes, teleportation circle
    9th-level: astral projection, freedom, imprisonment, mage's disjunction, reality maelstrom (SpC), reaving dispel (SpC), wish****

    *The type of these spells is changed to Conjuration (teleportation). Instead of creating or summoning the relevant material, the teleporter teleports it out or in.
    **New spell, see below.
    ***Planar travel effect only.
    ****Transport travellers effect only.


    Spells not contained in the Player's Handbook are abbreviated as follows: C.Mage = Complete Mage, PHB II = Player's Handbook II, SpC = Spell Compendium.

    New Spell: Rocks Fall
    Spoiler
    Show
    Rocks Fall
    Conjuration (teleportation)
    Level: Teleporter 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Target: 5-foot radius burst
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Reflex half
    Spell Resistance: No

    This spell teleports a collection of objects from somewhere in the multiverse into the air directly above the target. The objects immediately fall to the ground with a crash, dealing 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to all creatures and unattended objects within the target area. The objects then teleport back to their place of origin.

    The exact composition of the objects is chosen by the caster at the time of casting, and makes no difference to the effect of the spell. By default, the spell creates rocks, but can also be used to drop stones, logs, bricks, furniture, pianos, anvils, or any other inanimate object the caster can think of.


    Adaptions & Notes


    The teleporter is designed to be on the power level of the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader; very good at one thing, and moderately good at several others. With the Advanced Learning feature and Use Magic Device skill, a teleporter should be able to hold their own in even a high-power party.

    If you want to increase the teleporter's power, you can start adding Conjuration (creation) spells to the teleporter's spell list, the idea being that the teleporter isn't creating the materials, but teleporting them in from somewhere in the multiverse. Be aware however that the Conjuration (creation) spells are among the most powerful in the game, and if you add too many you'll end up making the teleporter better than the Sorcerer in every way.


    Using a Teleporter as an NPC


    I originally designed the teleporter as an NPC class for one of my campaigns. It's often useful as a DM to provide the players with a means of fast transport. However, a transportation service can be boring if it's too predictable, so if using an NPC teleporter as a taxi service, an interesting variation is to add the following class features:

    Ever Ready: At 6th level, a teleporter gains the ability to cast the teleport spell without expending a spell slot. However, if the teleporter does this, roll twice on the mishap chart and take the higher result. In addition, a teleporter's teleport spells have no range limit and need no information on the destination (but see below).

    Teleport Mishaps: Teleporters are not, in general, the most reliable of people. When casting teleport or any similar spell, a teleporter does not use the normal familiarity chart from the PHB; instead, roll d100 on the chart below. (It's recommended that you have the players rather than the DM make this roll it's far more entertaining.) If using greater teleport rather than teleport, a teleporter rolls twice and takes the lower result.

    01-10: Thrown through Positive Energy Plane. Everyone teleported is affected as by a heal spell.
    11-70: On target.
    71-80: Off target by 1d100 % of travel distance in a random direction (roll 1d10 - 1: north, 2: northeast, 3: east, 4: southeast, 5: south, 6: southwest, 7: west, 8: northwest, 9: straight up, 10: straight down.)
    81-90: Similar location (anywhere that looks thematically similar to the target).
    91-97: Thrown through space. Roll on the Random Planar Destinations table (Spell Compendium, pg 169).
    98-100: Thrown through time. Roll another d100 to see when:

    01-20: Creation of the world. Consult your campaign world's creation mythology to see what's there.
    21-40: Prehistory. Dinosaurs and aboleths.
    41-60: Near past. Pick an eventful period within the campaign world's history.
    61-80: Future. Dead suns and mind flayers.
    81-100: Far future. Modern-day or science fiction setting of the DM's choice.

    Getting back through time is at the DM's discretion. It's generally recommended to have the teleporter be able to figure out a way home within rounds, minutes, hours, or days, depending on which number the DM considers most amusing or dramatically appropriate. Really cruel DMs may leave the party stranded in the new timeframe and require them to find their own way back.


    Version History
    Spoiler
    Show
    Version 1.0:

    -Displacer Field was originally a flat miss chance that forced ranged attacks to miss and melee attackers to be teleported randomly away, starting at 20% at level 1 and rising to 80% at level 19.

    Version 2.0:

    -Changed Displacer Field from a flat miss chance to an immediate-action opposed check.
    -Clarified Dimensional Freedom.
    -Moved Improved Abrupt Jaunt to level 13 (reason: dead level).

    Version 2.1:

    -Added abilities for skills.
    -Added starting gold and age.

    Version 2.2:

    -Added Diplomacy to skill list.
    -Removed the spell school change to Mage Armour and Greater Mage Armour.
    -Added Tactical Teleportation (C.Mage) to spell list.

    Version 2.3:

    -Added Wish to spell list (transport effect only).
    -Various minor rewordings and rewrites.
    Last edited by Saph; 2011-03-21 at 12:52 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Rising Phoenix's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Oz
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    At a glance:

    I like this, a lot and will most likely properly comment on it when I've had a proper read of it in the morning. :)

    R.P.

    Edit: Actually just read it. It looks solid. The only issue I could see is with displacer field being a too powerful a defensive mechanism (though very flavourful) and melee needs full attacks. I would remove that.

    However, I would let the class teleport a hostile enemies as an immediate action less they succeed on a will save.
    Last edited by Rising Phoenix; 2010-09-19 at 10:11 AM.
    Awesome FE sprites done by Penguinator

    My Homebrew:
    Spoiler
    Show


    My characters

    Spoiler
    Show

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Phoenix View Post
    Edit: Actually just read it. It looks solid. The only issue I could see is with displacer field being a too powerful a defensive mechanism (though very flavourful) and melee needs full attacks. I would remove that.

    However, I would let the class teleport a hostile enemies as an immediate action less they succeed on a will save.
    Could do. It's based off the Warhammer 40K displacer field which teleports the wearer when they're about to be hit. I could change it to do that instead; just have it make the teleporter blink out and reappear a foot or two away, enough to make an attack miss but not enough to shift their position.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    I like this class, that said I'm worried about the power of abrupt jaunt and displacement field. At upper levels this characters going to be almost impossible to hit with anything other than an aoe. The at will immediate action teleport means that if anything bad targets them they can just teleport away and even if they don't bother to do that they essentially have an 80% miss chance in addition to what ever else they might have for defenses.

    Combined with that the at will greater teleport + hostile teleport is also pretty broken. Think about it, if you spend a couple of nights with a telescope you can teleport enemy fighters to mars with impunity effectively one-shoting anyone who fails there will save.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Yeeaaaah, a permanent 80% miss chance against any form of attack is... incredibly broken, especially when you've got abrupt jaunt for the few attacks that actually hit. What's interesting is that, as worded, you can even use a caster level check (without the bonus, granted) in order to keep your miss chance in an AMF... ouch.

    Anyway, basically, this class is... very hard to kill with anything that isn't another caster, but it can't do too much, because, besides it's extra chosen spells, it really doesn't have much offensive capability besides "will save or be teleported into space."

  6. - Top - End - #6

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Love this! great work Saph!

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Yeeaaaah, a permanent 80% miss chance against any form of attack is... incredibly broken, especially when you've got abrupt jaunt for the few attacks that actually hit.
    I believe the contrary, it's incredibly balanced compared to high level casters with more defensive spells that you can shake a stick at.

    Plus, it mostly screws fullcasters that want to end battles with a single spell, and that's a very good thing.

    The warblade just pulls out his supply of javelins, time stand stills, raging mongoose and overloads the miss chance with moar dakka. The swordsage uses aoe maneuvers. The dread necro sends forth his undead minion hordes.

    Also as you mentioned the teleporter's offensive abiity is quite limited, so what's the problem with them being good at keeping themselves alive?

    Plus they look more like a support class, teleporting allies into full attack range and/or out of danger.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-09-19 at 12:09 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morph Bark's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Freljord

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I believe the contrary, it's incredibly balanced compared to high level casters with more defensive spells that you can shake a stick at.

    Plus, it mostly screws fullcasters that want to end battles with a single spell, and that's a very good thing.
    In that case, 80% miss chance would work better against spells only, or ranged attacks only, or both those, but not non-magic melee attacks.

    Does miss chance also affect things that don't require an attack roll btw? If not, it could be added that other magical effects requiring a Reflex save could be affected too. Fort- or Will-targeting spells might not work as well in this case, but you could try anyway.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2010-09-19 at 12:13 PM.
    Strawberries = awesome avatarist.
    Current Projects:
    EMPIRE! -- A Community World-Building Game full of role-playing and strategy
    Analyzing RPG Systems
    Spoiler
    Show
    Campaign setting! Homebrew Tier Compendium! NPCs!
    FanFiction.net | DeviantART | Homebrewer's Signature

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    So breath weapons, splash weapons, and spells are needed to kill the this thing at higher levels? Worrisome, but it has few attack spells (spells that would cancel invisibility).

    I like the idea of it alot.

    Seems it has mostly low levels damage/suck spells (a few higher like Maze though). So mostly a buff/utility caster with a few attack ones.

    Combined I guess that makes the defensive abilities less problematic. Hard to say till playtested personally.
    Some things look stronger on paper than reality (ala Monk).
    Either way I like the idea.

    Any chance of that Alternate class feature that Warmages get where you can choose any spell but +1 to level instead of Advanced Learning? If not, cool just curious.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Plus, it mostly screws fullcasters that want to end battles with a single spell, and that's a very good thing.
    Except spells that don't require attack rolls aren't blocked.

    The warblade just pulls out his supply of javelins, time stand stills, raging mongoose and overloads the miss chance with moar dakka. The swordsage uses aoe maneuvers. The dread necro sends forth his undead minion hordes.
    The miss chance doesn't run out, which means that none of these strategies (save hitting with weak AoE attacks) actually work. "They use all their resources to deal the most damage possible" is their strategy in general, and the 80% reduced damage they take from the abilities of anything but people with AoE attacks is... very, very bad. Not to mention only full casters and hulking hurler's (IIRC) get AoE attacks worth speaking of.

    Also as you mentioned the teleporter's offensive abiity is quite limited, so what's the problem with them being good at keeping themselves alive?
    Because it's unbalanced. Imagine if the commoner got the ability to never be harmed by anything, ever. That's basically what this is (in an extreme form). It's a class who's offensive capability is a few (conjuration, granted, so very good) spells and will save or dies, but it's nearly impossible to be damaged by anything that isn't a full caster/hulking hurler (and hulking hurler's can be teleported from).

    Plus they look more like a support class, teleporting allies into full attack range and/or out of danger.
    That is still not an excuse for giving them nigh invulnerability to anything but AoE attacks. It's an unbalanced class feature and probably needs to be reworked or removed. An idea could be a caster level + int bonus check to redirect the attack back at the original attacker, as an immediate action or free action once (maybe twice at higher levels( per round; attacks get checked against attack rolls, spells get checked against the same CL + int check. That way it actually hurts casters using single target spells *more* than it hurts melee, while still giving them some defensive options.

    EDIT: Also, with advanced learning, you can fairly easily get a fort save or die/suck and a couple good blast or AoE save or suck spells, which brings the offensive power of this up monumentally. It won't have much flexibility, but it's nigh invulnerable, has massive amounts of utility, and a ready supply of multi target will save or dies.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 12:19 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon Rose View Post
    I like this class, that said I'm worried about the power of abrupt jaunt and displacement field. At upper levels this characters going to be almost impossible to hit with anything other than an aoe. The at will immediate action teleport means that if anything bad targets them they can just teleport away and even if they don't bother to do that they essentially have an 80% miss chance in addition to what ever else they might have for defenses.
    Bear in mind that you get the 80% displacer field at level 19. At that level other casters have things like time stop, shapechange, summon monster IX, gate, wail of the banshee, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon Rose View Post
    Combined with that the at will greater teleport + hostile teleport is also pretty broken. Think about it, if you spend a couple of nights with a telescope you can teleport enemy fighters to mars with impunity effectively one-shoting anyone who fails there will save.
    Greater teleport + hostile teleportation still requires both a touch attack and a save. Compare it to, say, irresistable dance. I honestly don't think a touch range at-will save-or-die is particularly broken at level 17 - multi-target save-or-be-screwed spells are available to other classes far earlier than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Anyway, basically, this class is... very hard to kill with anything that isn't another caster, but it can't do too much, because, besides it's extra chosen spells, it really doesn't have much offensive capability besides "will save or be teleported into space."
    It's got a few attack spells - the teleport line, as well as the 'drop objects on enemy' line. But no, the class isn't supposed to have the direct attack power of a wizard or sorcerer.

    For those who think the 80% cap on Displacer Field is too high, what do you think a better number would be? Keep in mind that you aren't going to get the high numbers until very high level, at which level all casters have some pretty ridiculous abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Any chance of that Alternate class feature that Warmages get where you can choose any spell but +1 to level instead of Advanced Learning? If not, cool just curious.
    I considered it, but decided that Conjuration was so flexible that you don't really need the option of any other schools. :P Besides, polymorph effects and so on don't really fit thematically.
    Last edited by Saph; 2010-09-19 at 12:21 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Except spells that don't require attack rolls aren't blocked.

    The displacer field even works against targeted spells like hold person; the magical energy is redirected somewhere else.


    I wasn't aware that hold person needed attack rolls to hit. This is a class for 3.5, not 4e I believe.

    "Targeted" spells are spells that have a target, not spells that need attack rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The miss chance doesn't run out, which means that none of these strategies (save hitting with weak AoE attacks) actually work. "They use all their resources to deal the most damage possible" is their strategy in general, and the 80% reduced damage they take from the abilities of anything but people with AoE attacks is... very, very bad.
    A decently optimized warblade can easily dish out hundreds of damage with thrown weapons by that level. Reducing it by 80% simply means the d6 teleporter is dead instead of reduced to an indisinguishable pool of blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Not to mention only full casters and hulking hurler's (IIRC) get AoE attacks worth speaking of.
    If by "worth speaking of" you mean insta gib then yes I'll give you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Because it's unbalanced. Imagine if the commoner got the ability to never be harmed by anything, ever. That's basically what this is (in an extreme form). It's a class who's offensive capability is a few (conjuration, granted, so very good) spells and will save or dies, but it's nearly impossible to be damaged by anything that isn't a full caster/hulking hurler (and hulking hurler's can be teleported from).
    Again, it's not that hard to optimize a melee character to be dealing hundreds of damage at range by that level with multiple attacks, so even if 80% are blocked the teleporter is still hurting bad.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-09-19 at 12:24 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    For those who think the 80% cap on Displacer Field is too high, what do you think a better number would be? Keep in mind that you aren't going to get the high numbers until very high level, at which level all casters have some pretty ridiculous abilities.
    Restating the suggestion I made, you can help this classes limited offense (sort of; advanced learning gives it a good, if somewhat small, variety of things to do) and absurd defense by changing it to a free action one or two times per round (or an immediate action, which makes it unable to stack with abrupt jaunt) that uses a CL+Cha (on the above I used int without rechecking the classes key stat) check against CL + key mod or the attack roll. Makes it better against mages, less likely to totally shut down everybody without AoEs, and gives you offense, all in one swoop.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    A decently optimized warblade can easily dish out hundreds of damage with thrown weapons by that level. Reducing it by 80% simply means the d6 teleporter is dead instead of reduced to an indisinguishable pool of blood.
    Err... yeah, no. Abrupt jaunt takes care of the hits. It is entirely possible you won't be hit, at all, by that point, at least not enough that you're going to get instagibbed, unless you have literally no other options and the warblade is really optimized. Given .2 damage output, a conservative constitution mod of +6 at level 20, and the assumption the martial character never misses, you'd need a damage output of almost 1000 per round (193 HP, so 965 damage) in order to kill this class with an instagib. While that's possible, it's a very high optimization barrier required to hit somebody who I assume is sitting still, not using their class features and only has a +6 item of Con to their name.


    If by "worth speaking of" you mean insta gib then yes I'll give you that.
    This class wouldn't be getting instagibbed unless the melee character was incredibly lucky.

    Again, it's not that hard to optimize a melee character to be dealing hundreds of damage at range by that level with multiple attacks, so even if 80% are blocked the teleporter is still hurting bad.
    This is assuming, of course, that enough of the attacks hit, that the warblade is optimized enough to instagib with only .2 times it's actual strength, that abrupt jaunt doesn't ruin it's day (if they aren't ranged, then the warblade just lost his full attack routine/full round manuevers), and that the teleporter has no other defensive options.

    The big one, is, of course, assuming every warblade is so optimized that they can kill somebody with .2 (at best) of their damage output. That's the thing; this takes disproportionate amounts of optimization to kill. With a less optimized warblade, you can probably expect a bit over 200 to 300 per round when dropping high level maneuvers, which means that you won't be killing this class at all (literally; with a 18 starting con, a book of +4 con, and a +6 item of con, 200 damage wouldn't kill this without the defensive abilities), and you don't need anything. Get any of the many defensive options this class could pick up (personal favorite: Item of continuous AMF. You're not affected, everybody else is screwed or at least badly hurt), and then it's back to disparity until the warblade optimizes even further.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 12:33 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    (personal favorite: Item of continuous AMF. You're not affected, everybody else is screwed or at least badly hurt)
    Doesn't work at all. AMF doesn't block line of effect. Spells go trough, they just don't affect anything on the AMF itself. Says so on the spell itself.

    But if you're not yourself affected by the AMF yourself (kinda pointless if you were), then it means that the are were you stand is AMF free, and so when the empowered maximized fireball explodes at your side, the fire still burns you. It doesn't burn around you, but it burns your flesh as the AMF just supresses the fireball on the affected area, wich your body is exluded off.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-09-19 at 12:39 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Doesn't work at all. AMF doesn't block line of effect. Spells go trough, they just don't affect anything on the AMF itself.

    But if you're not yourself affected by the AMF yourself (kinda pointless if you were), then it means that when the empowered maximized fireball explodes at your side, the fire still burns you. It doesn't burn around you, but it burns your flesh as the AMF just supresses the fireball on the affected area, wich your body is exluded off.
    You don't seem to get it, Oslecamo. This isn't one of those "shaped AMF" things that come up every so often; those are cool but don't work.

    This is a flat out AMF you are affecting yourself by. The problem is that this class gets a feature to *automatically ignore* an AMF (or make a CL check, but with the capstone, that is not required) that lets any of its spells or abilities work in it.

    That is why it works. You can ignore an AMF entirely, while still being well within it.

    Dimensional Freedom (Ex): At 9th level, a teleporter learns to break through magical effects that would confine them. When one of your spells or abilities would otherwise be blocked by some effect which prevents extradimensional movement (such as dimensional anchor or dimensional lock) you may make a caster level check, using your normal caster level for Conjuration (teleportation) spells, against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the creator of the effect. If you succeed, your spell or ability works after all. If you fail, your spell or ability is prevented as normal.
    Seeing as an AMF does block teleportation... yeah, fun times. It's like Cheater of Mystra, but free!

  16. - Top - End - #16

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    That is why it works. You can ignore an AMF entirely, while still being well within it.

    Seeing as an AMF does block teleportation... yeah, fun times. It's like Cheater of Mystra, but free!
    Now it's a question of wording. AMF doesn't block, it supresses stuff. Plus Dimensional freedom refers to stuff that specifically block only dimensional travel.

    It could be read your way... But I believe it would be a clear twisting of intention.

    This is, by your reading then the teleporter can also ignore line of sight, line of effect, lack of spell slots, saves, paralyzis, stun, pun-pun, and any and all effects that could prevent you from teleporting someone.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-09-19 at 12:52 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Now it's a question of wording. AMF doesn't block, it supresses stuff. Plus Dimensional freedom refers to stuff that specifically block only dimensional travel.

    It could be read your way... But I believe it would be a clear twisting of intention.

    This is, by your reading then the teleporter can also ignore line of sight, line of effect, lack of spell slots, saves, paralyzis, stun, pun-pun, and any and all effects that could prevent you from teleporting someone.
    It specifically states magical effects, which none of things you listed are, but an AMF is. Also, yes, an AMF does block extradimensional travel; you can't teleport to where an AMF is and wait for it to expire, it just fizzles. You can't teleport out of an AMF and wait around until it expires to leave; you just don't get teleported.

    You are also completely ignoring that, with nothing but a +6 item of con, this class has an effective HP of almost 1000 (above 1000 counting the 10 HP from 0 to dead.), That is a serious problem, because even ToB classes, with their very high power floor (relative to many classes) aren't really capable of getting through that without some pretty hardcore optimization.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 12:57 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    why not have the class gain a 5% miss chance instead of 20 or 30 per every 3 or 4 levels?

    also the amount of spells the class learns should probably share the same progression of wizard.

    also anti magic fields should probably effect it as well.
    Last edited by ocel; 2010-09-19 at 01:23 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    It specifically states magical effects, which none of things you listed are, but an AMF is. Also, yes, an AMF does block extradimensional travel; you can't teleport to where an AMF is and wait for it to expire, it just fizzles. You can't teleport out of an AMF and wait around until it expires to leave; you just don't get teleported.
    You're telling me that there aren't spells that block line of sight/effect, neither ones that paralyze/stun you? By your reading I hit the teleporter with a hold person, she fails the save and yet still can teleport next turn.

    I say it's pretty clear the Dimensional Freedom is clearly intended to just ignore effects that specifically block teleportation, not any and all effect that may stop your spellcasting, even if magic in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    You are also completely ignoring that, with nothing but a +6 item of con, this class has an effective HP of almost 1000 (above 1000 counting the 10 HP from 0 to dead.), That is a serious problem, because even ToB classes, with their very high power floor (relative to many classes) aren't really capable of getting through that without some pretty hardcore optimization.
    Well who said they have to kill it in one round? It has no self healing, no minions, it can just run away at best, and that counts as victory (and exp) for the other side.

    The teleporter isn't a wizard. She can't say "Ah, tomorrow I come back with a new array of spells to f*** you!". If she retreats she's defeated because whatever was her objective wasn't achieved and she can't come back with a super vengeance.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    You're telling me that there aren't spells that block line of sight/effect, neither ones that paralyze/stun you? By your reading I hit the teleporter with a hold person, she fails the save and yet still can teleport next turn.

    I say it's pretty clear the Dimensional Freedom is clearly intended to just ignore effects that specifically block teleportation, not any and all effect that may stop your spellcasting, even if magic in nature.
    Then the ability needs to be reworded, which is what I've been saying. At the moment, it is incredibly vague, but an AMF actually does seem to be as close as you can get to the listed dimension lock spells without actually being those spells (or anticipate teleport), since it blocks teleports and magic specifically, not all actions.

    EDIT: What I'm saying here is that AMF makes more sense to be gotten around because it actually does specifically block extradimensional travel, and doesn't block actions. Hold Person blocks actions, so you wouldn't be able to make the check while attempting to cast a spell, and stuff that blocks LoS doesn't really block teleportation (you can teleport without LoS or LoE), so.. yeah. Your examples still really aren't panning out.

    Well who said they have to kill it in one round? It has no self healing, no minions, it can just run away at best, and that counts as victory (and exp) for the other side.
    You did. You have stated, multiple times, that even with the defense, other classes can instagib her... which they can't.

    The teleporter isn't a wizard. She can't say "Ah, tomorrow I come back with a new array of spells to f*** you!". If she retreats she's defeated because whatever was her objective wasn't achieved and she can't come back with a super vengeance.
    And? This is basically a total non sequitar. The point is a permanent, unstoppable 80% miss chance on all effects is *far* too powerful, defensively. It is unbalanced with the rest of the class, and the rest of the T3 classes; only the T2+ classes really have any way to effectively hurt a teleporter.

    The point is basically a class with limited (but still pretty good) offense, good utility, and nigh invulnerable defensive abilities is a rather bad chassis; it's the exact opposite of rocket tag, and poor design for the same reasons; namely, that one side is going to have no options (rocket tag: one side is dead. Stone wall: Defensive side can't hit, dies slowly. Offensive side can't hit, dies slowly. Neither can hit: Boring).

    t needs to be redesigned so the class has enough offensive capability to be good for a T3 (it's not bad ATM, but could definitely use a little bit more punch, which my suggested change would do), while not getting a permanent defensive ability that even high level wizards would probably want, along with not having such an *incredibly* high skill floor in terms of defensive abilities; while normally increasing the skill floor is good because it provides more balance between optimizers and nonoptimizers, increasing it as high as this class does means that only optimizers can effectively fight this without the fight rapidly becoming boring.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 01:44 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    I actually spent a little time thinking about whether the teleporter should get to use teleportation through an AMF or not. On the one hand, it's a cool ability, and I like the idea that it can always use its primary function (teleporting things). And it's not as if you run into AMFs very often. On the other hand, the class is already fairly powerful and you could argue that there's no reason that it should get to ignore AMFs when the beguiler and dread necro don't. I'll have to think about it.

    I think those of you using the 80% figure are kind of missing the point, though. Most games don't get to the level 17-20 range, and every caster has ridiculous stuff they can do at that level. You need to compare it with what the equivalent classes can do.

    In this case, the equivalent classes are the Beguiler and the Dread Necromancer. If you can show me that the teleporter is significantly more powerful than either of those two over a certain level range (pick a 4 level band, say), then I'll agree that it needs nerfing.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    I actually spent a little time thinking about whether the teleporter should get to use teleportation through an AMF or not. On the one hand, it's a cool ability, and I like the idea that it can always use its primary function (teleporting things). And it's not as if you run into AMFs very often. On the other hand, the class is already fairly powerful and you could argue that there's no reason that it should get to ignore AMFs when the beguiler and dread necro don't. I'll have to think about it.

    I think those of you using the 80% figure are kind of missing the point, though. Most games don't get to the level 17-20 range, and every caster has ridiculous stuff they can do at that level. You need to compare it with what the equivalent classes can do.

    In this case, the equivalent classes are the Beguiler and the Dread Necromancer. If you can show me that the teleporter is significantly more powerful than either of those two over a certain level range (pick a 4 level band, say), then I'll agree that it needs nerfing.
    The point is not power as a whole, so much, but defensive power. This class has more defensive potential than any relevant class, and, furthermore, it has it at any optimization level. Yeah, with massive optimization, the 80%+abrupt jaunt may not save you from a warblade, but that's assuming that this class doesn't use anything but its class features while the warblade is optimized for 1k+ damage per round (and the 1k+ damage per round doesn't even include abrupt jaunt canceling plenty of things). If this class is optimized further, it becomes even more invulnerable.

    Also "people don't play at high levels, so my high level abilities can be broken" is not good design philosophy.

    Basically, assuming you aren't incredibly optimized, this class will almost *always* win encounters by stonewalling the enemies. Even at high optimization, an 80% miss chance is incredible, but any optimization below that and this class may as well be invulnerable.

    EDIT: Also, why does the miss chance even have to scale. It's not like AC, where it becomes less effective. At any given point, a 20% miss chance still means you are only taking 80% of the enemies full damage potential.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 02:30 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morph Bark's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Freljord

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Restating the suggestion I made, you can help this classes limited offense (sort of; advanced learning gives it a good, if somewhat small, variety of things to do) and absurd defense by changing it to a free action one or two times per round (or an immediate action, which makes it unable to stack with abrupt jaunt) that uses a CL+Cha (on the above I used int without rechecking the classes key stat) check against CL + key mod or the attack roll. Makes it better against mages, less likely to totally shut down everybody without AoEs, and gives you offense, all in one swoop.
    This sounds like a very good suggestion. If such a thing were done, I could probably convince the guy DMing the next campaign for my group to allow me to play this class. I've never been much one for teleportation, but focusing on it? It would make it an intruiging offer to try that I might not be able to refuse.
    Strawberries = awesome avatarist.
    Current Projects:
    EMPIRE! -- A Community World-Building Game full of role-playing and strategy
    Analyzing RPG Systems
    Spoiler
    Show
    Campaign setting! Homebrew Tier Compendium! NPCs!
    FanFiction.net | DeviantART | Homebrewer's Signature

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Also "people don't play at high levels, so my high level abilities can be broken" is not good design philosophy.
    Since it's not my design philosophy, that doesn't bother me much. Let me restate, in case I was unclear. Every caster has incredibly powerful abilities at high levels. Therefore, saying that a high-level caster ability is incredibly powerful doesn't prove very much. If you want to argue that the overall abilities of this class are too strong, the best way to do it is to compare it with the nearest equivalent classes, e.g. the beguiler or dread necro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    EDIT: Also, why does the miss chance even have to scale. It's not like AC, where it becomes less effective. At any given point, a 20% miss chance still means you are only taking 80% of the enemies full damage potential.
    It's to reflect the fact that miss chance spells and effects generally get better as you go up in levels. At low levels, few characters will have more than a 20% miss chance, and most won't even have that. At high levels, it's not uncommon for high-powered characters to have one or two 50% miss chance effects active in all difficult battles.

    At the moment I'm considering reducing the miss chance, but I'll wait for more feedback before I do any editing.
    Last edited by Saph; 2010-09-19 at 02:37 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Since it's not my design philosophy, that doesn't bother me much. Let me restate, in case I was unclear. Every caster has incredibly powerful abilities at high levels. Therefore, saying that a high-level caster ability is incredibly powerful doesn't prove very much. If you want to argue that the overall abilities of this class are too strong, the best way to do it is to compare it with the nearest equivalent classes, e.g. the beguiler or dread necro.
    The problem is that *no ability*, at least not without extreme optimization, gives you nearly as much potential for reducing damage taken than an 80% miss chance with no way to bypass it.

    That's the point: This has an incredibly low skill ceiling, so it can only really be played with optimized casters and be reasonable, and even against decently optimized martial characters, it can still just ignore them, and that's before even optimizing this class at all.

    Also, there is no way to get an uncounterable, unstoppable, uninterruptable 80% miss chance. Mirror Images can be destroyed or true seeing'd (and take an action to put up), other miss chances can be dispelled or countered... this can't.

    Also, this is far better than the beguiler, at least; it gets plenty of will SoDs, can pick from the best school in the game in order to get a few options to round out it's arsenal, doesn't get stopped by mind affecting abilities, and, as I've said, has a far better defensive option that requires no optimization to use and doesn't have any kind of counter. Dread Necro... also probably better, but that's a really hard thing to judge. Defensively, it beats a Dread Necro handily, and basically all the ToB classes would get crushed by this, and its utility is much higher than theirs as well.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 02:40 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The problem is that *no ability*, at least not without extreme optimization, gives you nearly as much potential for reducing damage taken than an 80% miss chance with no way to bypass it.
    As I said in the previous edit, I'm thinking of reducing that, but I'll wait for more feedback first. I understand your point.

    I'd still be interested in a comparison between this class and the other know-their-whole-spell-list classes (warmage, beguiler, dread necro), as they're the closest model.
    Last edited by Saph; 2010-09-19 at 02:39 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    As I said in the previous edit, I'm thinking of reducing that, but I'll wait for more feedback first. I understand your point.

    I'd still be interested in a comparison between this class and the other know-their-whole-spell-list classes (warmage, beguiler, dread necro), as they're the closest model.
    As I've said: It has better defensive abilities than the beguiler (since Mirror Image has so many counters), better SoDs than any of them (since it can pick from conjuration), and good utility as well. It also handily beats all the ToB classes, which the other three list casters do not. I could do an in depth comparison, but I really don't feel that should be necessary when we are dealing with a class who reduces any offensive action taken against it to a fifth of its normal power, has access to a wide variety of save or dies, can't be stopped by the few counters that would exist to its powers, can (possibly) go around in an AMF without caring, and actually has a list filled with good amounts of non teleporty utility.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 02:45 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Since it's not my design philosophy, that doesn't bother me much. Let me restate, in case I was unclear. Every caster has incredibly powerful abilities at high levels. Therefore, saying that a high-level caster ability is incredibly powerful doesn't prove very much. If you want to argue that the overall abilities of this class are too strong, the best way to do it is to compare it with the nearest equivalent classes, e.g. the beguiler or dread necro.
    I believe that what Mils is saying in his own acerbic way is that the Teleporter is NOT balanced aginst the DNecro or the Beguiler. See, the Teleporter has the ability to merely ignore its fellow Tier 3 classes, and it has a defensive ability vastly beyond anything anyone else is capable to producing short of some absurdly high-end optimization. The Beguiler and Dread Necromancer cannot produce such amazing effects with so little effort, and that is the issue. Point one thing out for either class (something out of the box that requires nothing more than leveling up and using one class feature) that is the functional equivalent of a 80% miss chance. Or even a 50% miss chance.

    At the moment I'm considering reducing the miss chance, but I'll wait for more feedback before I do any editing.
    It needs to come down. The reason why is because it doesn't take any effort, AND comes with good secondary effects. This is not just miss chance, it is miss chance that can ruin entire turns. Let's say you are a level 6 Teleporter fighting against a pouncing Barbarian 6. Barb rages and charges you, getting two attacks (yay pounce). He triggers your miss chance with his first attack, and gets shunted away. His turn is WASTED. He might be in a wall, in the air, behind objects, in the midst of other enemies, who the hell knows? You literally just STOOD THERE, didn't have to take an action, and you completely invalidated someone. This is not balanced.

    My suggestion is as follows: the cap is brought down to 50%, and it takes an immediate action to trigger on any attack.

    EDIT: Mils beat me to why this isn't balanced against the Beguiler/DNecro (and don't even mention the Warmage, which is not balanced against his fellows, much less this guy). I like it, but the balance is pretty off.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-09-19 at 02:47 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    I believe that what Mils is saying in his own acerbic way is that the Teleporter is NOT balanced aginst the DNecro or the Beguiler. See, the Teleporter has the ability to merely ignore its fellow Tier 3 classes, and it has a defensive ability vastly beyond anything anyone else is capable to producing short of some absurdly high-end optimization. The Beguiler and Dread Necromancer cannot produce such amazing effects with so little effort, and that is the issue. Point one thing out for either class (something out of the box that requires nothing more than leveling up and using one class feature) that is the functional equivalent of a 80% miss chance. Or even a 50% miss chance.


    It needs to come down. The reason why is because it doesn't take any effort, AND comes with good secondary effects. This is not just miss chance, it is miss chance that can ruin entire turns. Let's say you are a level 6 Teleporter fighting against a pouncing Barbarian 6. Barb rages and charges you, getting two attacks (yay pounce). He triggers your miss chance with his first attack, and gets shunted away. His turn is WASTED. He might be in a wall, in the air, behind objects, in the midst of other enemies, who the hell knows? You literally just STOOD THERE, didn't have to take an action, and you completely invalidated someone. This is not balanced.

    My suggestion is as follows: the cap is brought down to 50%, and it takes an immediate action to trigger on any attack.

    EDIT: Mils beat me to why this isn't balanced against the Beguiler/DNecro (and don't even mention the Warmage, which is not balanced against his fellows, much less this guy). I like it, but the balance is pretty off.
    I still prefer my "immediate action to make a check to turn the attack against the attacker" one, since it adds a bit of offensive flair and risk to the class, and offers a more offensive, but less likely to stop the attack, counterpoint to abrupt jaunt.

    A flat out 20% miss chance wouldn't be too terribly unbalanced, although I'd really prefer it not randomly teleport the attacker around; that's just a lot of dice for nothing.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-09-19 at 02:54 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [3.5] New Base Class: The Teleporter

    OK, you guys have convinced me that Displacer Field needs to be reduced in power. At the moment there are two possibilities I'm considering to nerf it:

    First option: Keep as is, but reduce miss chance, perhaps by making it a 5% increase every three levels instead of 10%. That would make it 20% at level 1, 30% at level 7, 40% at level 13, and 50% at level 19. Capping it at 50% brings it into line with effects such as displacement, blink, total concealment, and incorporeality, all of which also give a 50% chance. Probably also make the effect teleport the teleporter rather than the attacker.

    Second option: Use Mils' suggestion of an opposed CL+Cha check against the enemy attack. I'm not sure how this would work against spell attacks, however, and I haven't yet figured out whether this would involve teleporting the attack, the attacker, or the teleporter.

    If you've got a preference, chime in.
    Last edited by Saph; 2010-09-19 at 03:07 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •