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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    There's a logical leap somewhere in the middle there . It really just means you read one particular bit of flavor that others overlooked. The other contestants may know different flavor better. For example, I know my homebrewed world inside and out. I'm learning the flavor of Eberron for my RL DMing. The Realms, I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

    Judging in progress (6 done). I should be done by Monday. Just as a warning, some of my scores will be very low. I love the ideas presented, but I've seen multiple illegal builds. For the record, if you don't meet the prerequisites for even one feat, I count that as an illegal build. This contest is about the best and brightest in optimization--let's not sully our reputations by missing simple rules.

    However, I fear my deduction for illegal builds may be too harsh. Miss one feat prerequisite, and the highest you can get is 8 points. I'd like to hear from Ozy and the other judges--should I change my penalty to a 1 in Power and Elegance, but still score [attempted] use of the secret ingredient? Then the max score for an illegal build would be 12, and it wouldn't penalize the idea of the build, only the execution. So what say you?
    Wait, if the pre-requisite could be easily met, if its just a typo, is that ok? Such as requiring an ability score 1 higher than you have, but you can easily redistribute a point from an ability score to meet it?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    However, I fear my deduction for illegal builds may be too harsh. Miss one feat prerequisite, and the highest you can get is 8 points. I'd like to hear from Ozy and the other judges--should I change my penalty to a 1 in Power and Elegance, but still score [attempted] use of the secret ingredient? Then the max score for an illegal build would be 12, and it wouldn't penalize the idea of the build, only the execution. So what say you?
    I'd advice some care, but it's your judging criteria, not mine. Sometimes an "illegal build" can be made because of a slight, completely unintended change: penalizing a build for something that could be explained easily (specifically if missing one bit from "kitchen" to "plate" (aka, from the build schematics to the final build) would be a bit too harsh.

    I'd prefer, if you consider it, a case-by-case basis: while I don't have experience judging a build in the IC challenge, I can claim a bit of experience judging builds for Test of Spite, in which the rules are a bit more strict. Sometimes, the slight mistake may be a result of miscalculation or lack of application of a bonus in one place; something unintended and that may be ignored by the builder even after a double or triple check. Usually, the sheet-checker's work was to determine which parts might have been lost, or perhaps added twice unintentionally. Even a carefully constructed build could have something missing after a second check; erring is human after all.

    Still...your criteria, not mine. As a fellow poster in GitP would say: just my 2cp.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Well, looks like I'm the first ever alternate judge for Iron Chef. ^^
    Before I begin my judging, let me tell you guys the ideas I had for this contest. My first thoughts were kalashtar for extra power points and Duskblade for all Knowledge skills and full base attack bonus. I could also channel two spells on two different targets with sweeping strike. My first idea was this: kalashtar Duskblade/Warmind and something to expand Duskblade's spell list - Wyrm Wizard, Fiend-Blooded, Wild Soul, something like that. I knew, though, that even with Warmind's buffs this would be quite lackluster at higher levels and a straight Duskblade would get a better ability to channel only 3 levels later than a Duskblade/Warmind. So I dropped the concept (but Duskblade 13/Warmind 5 does feel nice, now that I think about it...).
    My second thought was heavy on Wis synergy. Swordsage/Paladin with Serenity and Intuitive Attack feats, going into Shiba Protector then Warmind. Solid, but boring. So I dropped the concept.
    My last thought was that of an Ardent/Fighter/Warmind/Diamond Dragon. I'd use my feats to lock my enemies down (and I expected some disagreements on whether Mage Slayer drops ML or not) with the reach I'd get from Warmind. I'd have a huge power variety from the combination of Ardent, Warmind and Diamond Dragon. Diamond Dragon is also hardly ever used, so I figured that would be a bonus on originality. I was also going to use a dragonblooded race to fit with my dragon theme, maybe spellscale since they are hardly ever used. This is the build I would have submited... but I had a lot of papers to do this week and didn't have the time. Too bad.
    Well, enough ranting. On to the judging!
    I'll start on 3 and then add/subtract points as I see fit. This is quite different from my usual judging style, so it might did get a little convoluted.
    If you notice any mistakes or inconsistencies, please let me know.

    Dolgan Whurard
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    Originality: 5 Earth Dwarf took me by surprise, though it seems a bit obvious now that I think about it (+0.5). Divine Mind, though, was totally unexpected (+0.5). Also, Combat Focus feats? I love them and I hardly ever see'em getting some use! That's amazing. (+1) I knew I'd see at least one Wis-synergy build, but I won't take points from that.
    Power: 3 You say Dolgan is a tank, and he does have pretty nice defenses and hits hard, but it's a lot harder to thank without battlefield control. (-0.5) Also, as much as I like the Combat Focus feats, they are kinda weak and you could use extra firepower from other sources. (-0.5) Dolgan has great defenses, though. (+1) He is also somewhat of a team player and that always helps (+0.5) Your Warmind power choices are kind of 'uh?' - a 1st level power (and kind of a weak one at that) at your last level? You could have done a lot better (-0.5).
    Elegance: 4 Your backstory is simple, short, direct and explains your choices. I like that. (+1)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 1.5 You push your Warmind levels too much to the end of the build. This means most of your career you have too little Warmind on you. (-0.5). Also, your buffs are kind of generic enough that you could pick them from anywhere else and you don't have special tricks to pull from Sweeping Strike, Warmind's signature ability - you just do more damage. [-1]

    Total: 13,5 Average: 3,375

    Esha Two Bears
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    Originality: 2.5 What is it with Iron Chef and bears anyway? (-0.5) Educated/Education is spread like the plague through this edition. (-0.5) Horizon Walker, specially at the end of the build, was unexpected. (+0.5)
    Power: 3.5 Like your said yourself, Rage limits your power selection (and the situations where you can use your powers) a lot. (-0.5) You have a few utility from dimension door and flight. Unfortunatelly, you don't have enough Horizon Walker to get the real tasty stuff. Esha is very resilient (+0.5) and deals good damage (+0.5).
    Elegance: 3 I rather like how you used Horizon Walker to fill in for the skill department. (+0.5) You needed to define your tactics better, though - you just listed 4 of your known powers, after all, and it took some digging to discover it. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 4 You are really built around Warmind, if only because most of what you get elsewhere is passive (+1).

    Total: 12.5 Average: 3.125

    Khalanatari
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    Originality: 3.5 I actually expected kalashtar, but Atavist caught me flat-footed (+0.5).
    Power: 4 Nice trick with Sweeping Strike, hitting two people with a single stun. If only you had Pharoh's Fist... (+0.5) Your increased reach is very nice. (+0.5) Good all around defenses. (+0.5) Seriously lacks utility other than skils (-0.5).
    Elegance: 2 Dude, where is my fluff? (-1) I also wanted a more in-depth explation of tactics (-0.5) Very good presentation with all the tables, though (+0.5).
    Use of Special Ingredient: 2 Progresses rather slowly in Warmind, making you less Warmind-y for most of your career. (-0.5) You don't even mention class abilities other than Sweeping Strike; looks like you should have multiclassed out of Warmind at 5th. (-0.5)

    Total: 11.5 Average: 2,875

    Daken
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    Originality: 4 I really dislike Marvel Comics' Daken, but I won't take points for that.
    The rest of the build is totally unexpected, though. Half-orc? (+0.5) Paragon? (+0.5) Totemist?! (+0.5) Totem Rager is a given since you already had Rage and was a Totemist, but very good indeed. Education cost you, though. (-0.5)
    Power: 4 Really powerful grappler. (+0.5) Good power selection for your purposes. (+0.5) Good reach always helps (+0.5). You seemed to forget how Rage limits your actions, though. (-0.5)
    Elegance: 3 Very good presentation. (+0.5) Education doesn't fit the presented background at all (-0.5).
    Use of Special Ingredient: 3 Uses all of the classes' abilities (+0.5), finished Warmind very late (-0.5)

    Total: 14 Average: 3,5

    Xepher Lod
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    Originality: 3.5 Wizard? Who would have thought. (+0.5)
    Power: 4 A good grappler (+0.5), with spells to boot (+0.5).
    Elegance: 2.5 Good presentation, but your table for Warmind is all jumbled up. (+0.5) Ebon Phoenix Mage, as an adaptation, is not exactly RAW and it falls on DM-allowance territory (-0.5). You keep your tentacle theme running quite effectively. (+0.5) Warblade seems a bit tacked on and would actually be a much better choice for the first level (-0.5). Talaric Codex or Warminds not even mentioned (-0.5).
    Use of Special Ingredient: 3 Only 5 levels of Warmind (-0.5) but you use it to great effect, speciall with the maneuver-spam that seems so popular here (+0.5).

    Total: 13 Average: 3.25

    Tanis
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    Originality: 3 Ape Totem surprised me (+0.5), Education cost you (-0.5)
    Power: 4 Range fighting by itself has several advantages, and you offset the disadvantages with Bloodstorm Blade. (+0.5) Bloodstorm Blade + Sweeping Strike was a stroke of genius. (+0.5) Quicken Power + Practiced Manifester helps on action economy (+0.5). Seriously lacks utility (-0.5).
    Elegance: 3.5 Build flows rather well. (+0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 3.5 Nice synergy between Bloodstorm Blade and Sweeping Strike (+0.5)

    Total: 14 Average: 3.5

    Violet Rose
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    Originality: 3 Half-giant with drow roots? Nice. (+0.5) Education cost you (-0.5)
    Power: 4 Maneuver-spamming via Sweeping Strike is good (+0.5), I like your use of Riposte. (+0.5)
    Elegance: 1.5 Presentation is kinda bad. A few spoiler blocks would have been welcomed. (-0.5) Weapon Finesse is unused in the build; Swashbuckler as a whole is weird when you are not finessing. (-0.5) No mention of Warmind or the Talariic Codex in the backstory. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 3 Compared to the other builds, you enter Warmind kind of late (-0.5). Good use of Sweeping Strike. (+0.5)

    Total: 11.5 Average: 2.875

    Krelb
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    Originality: 2.5 Why must there always be kobolds? (-0.5) Otherwise, pretty standard.
    Power: 3 Good utility. (+0.5) Lacks combat feats since Wyrm of War is illegal. (-0.5)
    Elegance: 1 Venerable dragonwrought kobold falls squarely in the 'known cheese' territory. (-0.5) Sovereign archetypes are for true dragons and even if dragonwrought kobolds were actually true dragons (and they are not), sovereign archetypes requires you to give up the racial ability to add clerical spells to a sorcerer's spell list, an ability dragonwrought kobolds don't get; true dragons without this ability could possibly assume an archetype depending completly on a DM's call. (-1) Also, Braid Blade is from a banned source. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 5 No denying it, you really use every feature to the fullest, explaining every single bit of strategy you use to do so. Very nice.

    Total: 11.5 Average: 2.875

    Sublime Mind of War
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    Originality: 2.5 Gee, Education again? (-0.5)
    Power: 3.5 You do get 8th-level maneuvers (+0.5).
    Elegance: 1 Very simple, direct and elegant build. specially like the staggered Warmind progression to increase Swordsage's IL.(+0.5) However, you used the typo of the Swordsage's x6 at level 1 skill points. (-0.5) Also, dude where is my fluff?! (-1) Also, you should have provided all the known maneuvers. (-0.5) Finally, with your stat priority I doubt yoru Combat Reflexes would ever have any use. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 3 Well, you use what you have rather efficiently, but I need more info to give you points for this.

    Total: 10 Average: 2.5

    Ultimate Tarrasco Jr
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    Originality: 4 Your build elements were not surprising at all, but that fluff is hilarious and the presentation is very well done. (+1)
    Power: 4 The grappler. Seriously, the grappler. (+1) You could even get some utility from Totemist, but I won't go into that since you didn't mention it, but won't take points from it either.
    Elegance: 2 You considered LA buyoff and that it would still get you level 20. IC doesn't hand out free LA. (-0.5) Also, as awesome as the concept is, an interplanar wrestling circuit won't fly in most campaigns, I believe. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 4 Your readying of the interaction between improved grab and sweeping strike is both hilarious and powerful. (+0.5) Excellent power choices for your intended role as well. (+0.5)

    Total: 14 Average: 3,5

    Bosleigh Eddon
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    Originality: 4 Azurin incarnate? Didn't see that coming. (+0.5) I rather like the clichéd feel of the backstory as well. Sometimes people avoid clichés so much that they become original. (+0.5)
    Power: 4 Your base attack bonus is lacking compared to the other entries. (-0.5) You compensate it with flurry of blows. (+0.5) Defenses are kind of low compared to other builds as well. (-0.5) Lots of utility, though. (+0.5) You can even be the party's ooc healer. (+0.5) I also like the sheer amount of damage you can do. (+0.5)
    Elegance: 2.5 I'm kinda worried on the alignment shift interacting with your Incarnate abilities, could be problematic with some DMs. (-0.5)
    Use of Special Ingredient: 2.5 Soul Manifester does not help so much since you went Warmind 10, but I won't penalize you here. Unfortunatelly, you hardly mention Warmind's abilities other than Sweeping Strike (-0.5)

    Total: 14 Average: 3.5
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-10-03 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken
    Elegance: 2.5 You never spent skill points to overcome Barbarian's illiteracy, so Esha couldn't actually read the Talaric Codex; just multiclassing by itself does not get you literacy - which technically makes the build illegal. (-1)
    Um, actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Illiteracy
    Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

    A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Um, actually...
    Man, am I ashamed now. ^^
    Must be a change from 3.0 that I never caught on.

    Edited and corrected. Silly me!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-10-02 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Okay, after some review, I've decided the following:
    Illegal elements will only cause a deduction in Elegance, unless they impact the playability of the build. Deductions to elegance will be as follows:
    -1: Feat prerequisite is missed (per feat, to a minimum score of 1).
    -2: Build does not qualify for a class (per class, to a minimum score of 1).

    Effect to playability will be deducted from Power, with the value of deduction based on the severity of the impact.

    This decision has been made after realizing that my scores would create an insumountable gap for Some great builds to overcome. I want everyone to look over their builds with a shrewd eye in the future, though I realize that not everybody has the time or energy to obssess over their entries like some others might.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Well, looks like I'm the first ever alternate judge for Iron Chef. ^^
    *ahem*

    Of course, I didn't actually post scores when I was an alternate the one time. But as a retired IC judge, I say good show for your first judging.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Grynning View Post
    *ahem*

    Of course, I didn't actually post scores when I was an alternate the one time. But as a retired IC judge, I say good show for your first judging.
    Well, while it is my first time as an alternate judge, I've been judging in IC for quite a while now.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    My build was silly. I considered argent, which seems like everyone else did as well. However I finally went with a Thri-Kreen, using the level progression from complete psionic, psywar, crusader, warmind, finishing with a few levels in dervish.

    Expansion + thicket of blades + dervish dance + sweeping strikes on a 4 armed bug seemed fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken
    Elegance: 3.5 I rather like how you used Horizon Walker to fill in for the skill department. (+0.5) You needed to define your tactics better, though - you just listed 4 of your known powers, after all, and it took some digging to discover it. (-0.5)
    If you start at 3 and add 0.5 and then take away 0.5 how do you arrive at 3.5?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    My build was silly. I considered argent, which seems like everyone else did as well. However I finally went with a Thri-Kreen, using the level progression from complete psionic, psywar, crusader, warmind, finishing with a few levels in dervish.

    Expansion + thicket of blades + dervish dance + sweeping strikes on a 4 armed bug seemed fun.
    Problem with that is that you lose sweeping strike after moving 10 feet. Which is why there aren't many charging/pouncing builds despite lots of barbarian.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by cd4 View Post
    If you start at 3 and add 0.5 and then take away 0.5 how do you arrive at 3.5?
    Gee, looks like I screwed up a lot this time. Fixed, thanks.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Problem with that is that you lose sweeping strike after moving 10 feet. Which is why there aren't many charging/pouncing builds despite lots of barbarian.
    That may have something to do with why I never finished it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Yeah, I half-jokingly thought about trying to make a Dwarven Defender build viable for this. Which reminds me--the three builds I was seriously considering, in no particular order:

    Human or Gray Elf Wizard 3/Warblade 1/Swashbuckler 3/War Mind 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 8. While I see we had a wizard/jade phoenix mage, I was going to ride it out long enough for quickened strike. This way, you could use Sweeping Strike + maneuver, then follow up with Sweeping Strike + touch spell in the same round. Doesn't hurt that the spell would be empowered. Most likely route was spiked chain with the extra reach methods we've seen. Abandoned for Use of Secret Ingredient and 1/encounter limitation on main tactic.

    Synad Cleric 3/Swordsage 2/War Mind 9/Ordained Champion 5. The name of the game is action economy. Self-buffing with quickened war domain spells, free action class features, regular cleric spells, and Linked Power+synad's limited quick manifesting means you can Hulk out pretty quick. Sweeping Strike+the ability to channel touch spells through a weapon for pain and casting. Abandoned for fear of unoriginality, and frustration that I couldn't cram in War Mind 10 without losing swordsage AC bonus or cleric 4th-level spells.

    Goliath? Barbarian 1/Cleric x/Totemist y/Totem Rager z/War Mind 5/Soul Eater 7. Focusing on natural attacks and negative levels with Death Devotion, Soul Eater, and Fell Drain metamagic. Abandoned due to Use of Secret Ingredient, Elegance, and frustration getting reach above 20 ft on a nonhumanoid without Warshaper.

    Judging on track for tomorrow morning, just wanted to update you and share my ideas/expectations.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-10-03 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Few builds have taken the limitations of sweeping strike into consideration. It simply does not function against groups of large or larger foes. Which is unfortunate, because the earliest it can be obtained (ECL10), is around the same time characters can expect to encounter large mobs of giants and the like.

    Like many cool PrC abilities, it ceases to be useful at the prior to becoming available. Like the capstone of the class, +10d6 once a day is just not that useful for a 15th level character...Good thing it's use requires a non-action. 5 psionic powers is pretty underwhelming if you have chosen poorly.

    It is a flavourful PrC. It looks good. But it is pretty awful when you think about it, IMHO.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    What makes it cease to function against Large enemies?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    What makes it cease to function against Large enemies?
    If I were to guess, I'd say WinWin is perceiving an issue of interactions between 'two squares" and the size of Large and larger enemies that occupy multiple squares.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/pr...sweepingStrike

    I think he is suggesting that being only able to attack two squares limits it. I think the key reason this isn't so are the words "Attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally"

    Large and bigger creatures take up multiple squares. They might be in a sweeping square and non sweeping squares.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    Large and bigger creatures take up multiple squares. They might be in a sweeping square and non sweeping squares.
    Yeah, pretty much. Can't see why it wouldn't work.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    That would be akin to not being able to hit giants in the first place because they take up an area greater than your reach.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Can't see why it wouldn't work.
    Creatures that large need not bunch close enough together for Sweeping Strike to affect multiple opponents. Medium and smaller enemies with similar tactics leave gaps to maneuver through that those with a larger reach do not.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    If there were two adjacent ogres (large size), why couldn't you hit both of them? You'd hit the left front square of ogre 1, and the front right square of ogre 2. Those squares are adjacent and contain different ogres.

    So yea, why wouldn't this work?
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Xepher's Chef has asked me to post this. Judges should adjust the scoring as they feel the error warrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xepher
    I just noticed something on my build that makes it illegal.

    14 wisdom is required in order to meet the requirements for Illithid heritage (The power point reserve). A silly oversight. The attribute points can easily be resdistributed from Con without effecting other elements of Xephers progression, but it is too late now.

    It would not be fair to other contestants to make any alterations, any judges should be made aware of this error. Thank you for your time.
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  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    If there were two adjacent ogres (large size), why couldn't you hit both of them? You'd hit the left front square of ogre 1, and the front right square of ogre 2. Those squares are adjacent and contain different ogres.

    So yea, why wouldn't this work?
    The main reason medium and smaller creatures crowd PC's is because of reach requirements. The larger the creature, the greater the reach, the more likely they are to be able to gang up on an opponent without being adjacent to each other.

    Two ogres can stand next to each other, sure. But two flanking ogres are going to have 15 feet of space between them, minumum. Which is more likely to happen if they decide to gang up on a warmind, or any PC for that matter?

    In a SGT (same game test) monsters are not going to adapt their tactics to make the PC's tactics more effective. That would be counterintuitive. More likely, an intelligent monster will make an effort to maximise their own advantages while minimising any advantages demonstrated by the PC's.

    Which is why I think that Sweeping Strike is a poor ability. It's advantages come far too late to be of any real use. YMMV. Warmind is an interesting class, but it is a trap option in most games. Better than a vanilla Monk though.

    edit: To be fair, 2 ogres is not an appropriate example. Ogres are CR 2. Not an appropriate challenge for a (minimum) level 10 character. A fair ECL 10 challenge would be a pair of Greater Shadows, Hellwasp Swarms, Stone Golems or Blue Slaad. Or a greater number of something like Trolls, Hill Giants or Chimera.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-10-03 at 11:48 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    Two ogres can stand next to each other, sure. But two flanking ogres are going to have 15 feet of space between them, minumum. Which is more likely to happen if they decide to gang up on a warmind, or any PC for that matter?
    You are thinking of very big spaces.
    In a dungeon, for example, the ogres wouldn't have much of a choice.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    You are thinking of very big spaces.
    In a dungeon, for example, the ogres wouldn't have much of a choice.
    I could easily say that you are thinking of small spaces. If the DM adapts encounters so that monsters are at a disadvantage, then of course the PC's abilities will always be effective. Can you honestly say that in every game, large monsters are only going to be encountered in a confined space? You may as well say that flying monsters do not have an advantage, because they will only be encountered in a dungeon.

    That does not help honestly assess the strengths of a PrC. Any character is powerful if the DM caters to their strengths.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    I could easily say that you are thinking of small spaces. If the DM adapts encounters so that monsters are at a disadvantage, then of course the PC's abilities will always be effective. Can you honestly say that in every game, large monsters are only going to be encountered in a confined space? You may as well say that flying monsters do not have an advantage, because they will only be encountered in a dungeon.

    That does not help honestly assess the strengths of a PrC. Any character is powerful if the DM caters to their strengths.
    Umm...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a test to measure the optimization skills of people more than a test to measure the effectiveness of a PrC? If you're claiming that Sweeping Strike is pointless against a certain category of creatures or larger, when positioned in specific places, then that's an attack to the PrC itself. The whole point of the competition is to prove what you can pull off while using that "ingredient" (which includes Sweeping Strike).

    Also, that means you're attempting to see what you can pull off with the rest of the class abilities. Sweeping Strike is but one of the things that War Mind offers: Chain of Personal Superiority, Chain of Defensive Posture, Chain of Overwhelming Force, Enduring Body, the stunted progression of psionic powers and full BAB is also part of the system. That in conjunction is the extent of the competition; what you can do with the PrC that is elegant, yet powerful enough, measuring how well you use the PrC (if it's a dip or if your build really takes on the strengths of the class and minimizes the weaknesses, you know, optimizing), and just how original can it be that it isn't prone to cookie-cutting. Or at least, that's what the points are given for. If the ability is weak per se, but you can do something great with it, then it should merit; not always assume that all creatures will either be on small spaces and ready to use SS on them, or the opposite. At one moment, you should assume that at least one encounter will have both situations, and situations in-between (such as creatures in large spaces but that decide to fight nearby, or a Large creature with martial maneuvers and, say, Island of Blades), and measure just how good it is when the ability can be activated. Else, it would be a critique to the PrC itself, something that would be best left for a thread and not a competition...

    Now, that doesn't mean I'm forcing you to determine how to judge or not, but it's something that I presume everybody had in mind: when reaching Sweeping Strike, no one thought "let's ignore it because it's useless vs. Large creatures or larger because they'll always fight smart"; I bet everyone thought "how can I implement this in my build?" I can tell because, on ICOC X I was attempting to think of that and how the rest of the classes would fit the concept I was developing. Note to mention, I was using the worst possible combination EVER of the six options, which ended up with me dead last because the concept was simply horrible. I can request Keld to tell just how horrible that might have been, if he desires to expand on that. Regardless of how that worked, everyone probably thought the same: "well, I have this, so how can I make it so that it's elegant, original, powerful, but also using all parts of the PrC?" Using that may imply a hit on Power, but not using it means a hit on UoSI, and the margin between the loss in Power and the loss in UoSI is simply too much to ignore it; even then, at times, the judges will probably won't think as you and may still nick points on UoSI because of one thing or another, but that's a case-by-case basis with each judge.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    I am not criticising builds. I am criticising the Warmind PrC. The abilities it offers are just not that good IMO. They boil down to:

    a bonus to stats for 3 minutes a day.
    DR that caps at 3.
    A bonus to AC for 3 minutes a day.
    An ability to attack adjacent squares.
    Bonus damage 1/day
    Psionics and PP.
    Good BAB
    2 good saves
    Poor skills

    Out of all of those, the BAB, saves and ratio of PP to powers known are the best features. Everything else can be matched or done better by using another class or PrC. A big part of this competition is about optimization. Granted, the focus is on optimizing suboptimal PrCs, but understanding why they are considered suboptimal is important if you like practical CharOp. At least, it is important to me.

    Honestly, I do not think the warmind stands up to high, or even mid level play that well. This may not be important to other contestants, but it may be useful for someone considering this PrC for use in a campaign.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    So, I now have 8 done. This is taking a bit longer than I initially thought. Scores should be done by tomorrow--they would be done later today, but it's my birthday so I'll be AFK most of the day. Sorry to keep everyone in suspense.

    Also, WinWin, I appreciate your honest critique of the class. Sometimes it's fun to see just how well a horrible PrC can be optimized. Other times, we try to take a different twist on something that's known and loved. This round of competition is clearly the first scenario.
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    So, I now have 8 done. This is taking a bit longer than I initially thought. Scores should be done by tomorrow--they would be done later today, but it's my birthday so I'll be AFK most of the day. Sorry to keep everyone in suspense.

    Also, WinWin, I appreciate your honest critique of the class. Sometimes it's fun to see just how well a horrible PrC can be optimized. Other times, we try to take a different twist on something that's known and loved. This round of competition is clearly the first scenario.
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