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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by BG View Post
    Snip
    There are two issues of note here:

    1) While you aren't a contestant, I do kindly ask spectators to observe the same rules regarding disputes as everyone else.

    2) I would encourage everyone involved to discuss the how they view the scoring categories and any issues that they foresee relative to special ingredient before the submission date. (Obviously, we do still want to avoid discussion of specific build elements. never the less-general observations, such as melee vs. caster scoring, are a good thing.)

    After judging is started, however, the specifics of what a judge considers powerful or not (or original or not, etc) is not something I will forward as a valid dispute. The purpose of the judges is to make that decision.

    Moreover, while I might agree with the point being made about the judge's criteria, D&D is a wide and varied game: the judging should, in so far as possible, reflect that.

    Put another way: I find it desirable to have both judges that agree with my views (on the game and the contest) and judges that fundamentally disagree with them. I'll not be discouraging that by trying to limit their influence while in the judging position.

    This isn't something I'm willing to budge on unless there is a vast consensus to the contrary. Obviously there are, in theory, exceptions: but they will generally be extreme enough that I probably won't wait for a contestant to dispute it.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-10-12 at 02:09 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    T...
    Moreover, while I might agree with the point being made about the judges criteria, D&D is a wide and varied game: the judging should, in so far as possible, reflect that.
    ...
    Indeed. The metaphor of the cooking competition is not merely for laughs - this competition is about taste. Each judge has their own palette, with different amounts of crunch and fluff needed to satisfy. That's what separates IC from a simple mechanical optimization contest.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Well, Kestrel tried, but whatever wiped my file left it unfixable, so all my votes are gone.

    Can attempt again if you think its worth waiting a day or two.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    A day or two is nothing!

    ...especially because the other judges are still working on their scores or MIA.
    Busy weekend; hope to update all threads by Monday AM.

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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Well, Kestrel tried, but whatever wiped my file left it unfixable, so all my votes are gone.

    Can attempt again if you think its worth waiting a day or two.
    We can be patient.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    We can be patient.
    *murmurs and gets back to work and makes backups every 30 seconds*

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    *murmurs and gets back to work and makes backups every 30 seconds*
    Hooray! There shall be judging after all!
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Krelb the Canny query (heh heh): Where does he get Disintegrate, Psionic, Blackstone Hammer and other 5th and 6th level powers?

    Disintegrate isn't a psychic warrior power, so assuming the additional manifester levels from Stone Mind go to ardent.

    He's got 4 levels of Ardent, then 4 more manifester levels from Stone Mind, for a ML of 8. 4th level powers is all he should be capable. Practiced Manifester feat doesn't let you get higher powers either.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    He's got 4 levels of Ardent, then 4 more manifester levels from Stone Mind, for a ML of 8. 4th level powers is all he should be capable. Practiced Manifester feat doesn't let you get higher powers either.
    It does for Ardent.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    It does for Ardent.
    Please enlighten.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Krelb the Canny query (heh heh): Where does he get Disintegrate, Psionic, Blackstone Hammer and other 5th and 6th level powers?

    Disintegrate isn't a psychic warrior power, so assuming the additional manifester levels from Stone Mind go to ardent.

    He's got 4 levels of Ardent, then 4 more manifester levels from Stone Mind, for a ML of 8. 4th level powers is all he should be capable. Practiced Manifester feat doesn't let you get higher powers either.
    It's a clever workaround. An ardent qualifies for any new powers according to their ML. He would have to have strategically placed PM in order to get powers of 5th level or higher. Would still have limits to powers known according to mantle access without other support (expended knowledge for example).

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Not only that, but the ardent specifically picks a power that he can manifest, so if for some reason you had a pp reducer or some thing like perma "you cxan spend more pp than your ML, " you could go even higher.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    A-hem! Regarding Ardents:
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Just look at your ML, then down at the wizard chart, then back to your ML. Your ML is now diamonds. What ever level spells a wizard could cast, you can learn. Sadly, you are not a wizard, but you can manifest powers like the wizard you smell like.

    I'm on a phantom steed.
    That explains it nicely. BTW, I have like, 3 more to judge. Sorry this is taking so long, these entries are really tough to judge. Psionics means there is a LOT to double check...
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-10-13 at 12:42 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    So, for the next Iron Chef challenge (or possibly for an Iron Chef offshoot) perhaps we could do a Pathfinder prestige class? Because I'd really like to see what people could come up with for the Pathfinder Chronicler or Balanced Scale of Abador. It would require a small change to the allowed material - I think adding just the Pathfinder SRD would be sufficient, but perhaps 'any published pathfinder book' may be allowed. But either way we could see a lot of new material that way.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    By the reasoning you're giving me with Practiced Manifester, why can't a psion do the same?

    "A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."

    So what's to stop him from also doing it by this slippery reasoning?

    The feat says "This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known."

    It then goes on to say: "It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers."

    It specifies what the manifester level increase does.

    By the reasoning presented Practiced Manifester does exactly what the feat is attempting to stop. I call bull on this.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-10-13 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    By the reasoning presented Practiced Manifester does exactly what the feat is attempting to stop. I call bull on this.
    But the Ardent learns power based on manifester level.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    By the reasoning you're giving me with Practiced Manifester, why can't a psion do the same?
    The ardent lacks a "maximum power level known" paragraph, while the psion does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    The feat says "This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known."

    It then goes on to say: "It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers."
    While it doesn't affect powers known, if the ML increase from Practiced Manifester allows you to manifest a power when you gain a level of ardent manifesting, you're good to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    But the Ardent learns power based on manifester level.
    They learn powers based on ML, but they learn them when they gain ardent levels (or PrCs that advance it). Practiced Manifester won't give you a bunch of new powers, but it'll let you snag higher-level ones.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-10-13 at 02:07 PM.
    Busy weekend; hope to update all threads by Monday AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    But the Ardent learns power based on manifester level.
    This is the salient difference. A Psion can't use the trick because their powers known have levels specified on the class table. That's why the trick is Ardent-specific.
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  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Most ardent tricks that use this exploit are ardent x/ manifesting PrC x. Natural World mantle ftw.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    This judgement isn't nearly as eloquent or as in depth as the first one before I lost it, but it hits the points that matter.


    Bosleigh Eddon - 11.5 (2.875 average)
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    Originality - 2.5
    Incarnum/Psionics is pretty standard in this competition it seems -1, and the background was a tad lackluster and standard -.5

    However, ardent choices were interesting and I've not run across the soul manifester PrC so ill also give you a +1.

    Power 4.5
    Expanded monk with all that packs quite a punch, both damage and attack-wise, and his defense is tasty.

    Elegance 3
    Everything works together quite well and though nothing particularly exciting. It looks like you're trying to make two builds however. Incarnum/Ardent for Soul Manifester, and then Monk out of nowhere for War Mind.

    Use of Secret Ingredient - 1.5
    As mentioned above, this has the feel of being half the Secret Ingredient, half another. So I'll give you half the base score.


    Ultimo Tarrasco Jr. - 15.25 (3.8 average)
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    Originality - 1.5

    Negative
    .25 Educated, again?
    -1 Girralon Arm fun, overdone, and yet one more incarnum build -1.25
    Medium+ sized, expansion using fellow? Mmm hmm. -1.

    Positive
    Amusing and different presentation +.5
    Half-ogre, don't recall seeing one used here before +.25
    Bear Totem Barbarian giving you improved grab... never seen that before +.25
    (however, I'd never allow that in my games. You have to take tons of feats for that normally. You can improved your speed, which you lose, much, much easier)

    Power - 4.75
    Yeah, grapple that high... geeze friggin' Louise. Didn't give you a 5 because what do you do with flyers?

    Elegance - 4
    Everything works together well. Too well. Insanely well. Cheesily well.

    Use of Secret Ingredient - 5
    Well done. All in all, this is the grappling reach build everyone else really wanted.


    Note: You have him down as Half-giant in Ultimo Tarrasco Jr's Martial Training! spoiler.



    Sublime Mind of War - 10.5 (2.625 average)
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    Originality 1
    Swordsage, check. Education feat, check. Spiked chain, check. Expansion, check. No story, double-check.

    Power 3
    It... looks ok? Don't have anything listed that is particularly powerful that isn't standard.

    Elegance 3.5
    It it a simple build, and they work together. Nothing new, but elegance is fine.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3
    Well, you used it.


    Little more effort next time and could have been fine.



    Krelb the Canny 14 (3.5 average)
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    Originality 4.5
    Have to say, this is like a dish made solely of obscurity. Had to look up most of it. Also interesting race and choices. +2
    However, yet another ardent *yawn* -.5

    Power 4
    I'll give credit where credit is due, you managed to get 6th level powers into this build and that blackstone hammer is tasty, amongst other bits.

    Elegance 2
    However, I call bull on that use of Practiced Manifester to get those powers. It goes against the intention of the feat (I refer back to my previous IA judging criteria) and is an interpretation that I find weaselly. I wouldn't have allowed it.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.5
    I think everything meshes well like most of the builds of this kind have, even if some of its best perks only work with advanced powers.



    Violet Rose - 14 (3.5 average)
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    Originality - 2.5
    Reach-based warblade with expansion and spiked chain and education feat. Mmm hmm. Swashbuckler is new though. Unexpected choice for a half-giant. I envision this amusingly.

    Power - 3.5
    Looks moderately powerful, and is a good tripper.

    Elegance 4
    Everything comes together well, and has a few synergies.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 4
    Is based around the reach ability of course and has an integral place.



    Tanis Bloodblade 12.75 (3.18 average)
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    Originality 2.25
    I find this entry a tad bland, and no real background (-1), but was gonna give you an extra point simply because despite all this it really wasn't a copy of anyone else's. Then I saw the Education feat and I went 'awww'. Will still give you a .25

    Power 3.5
    Richoted throws is nice, and he has some oomph to him, but nothing that really hits me.

    Elegance 3.5
    Everything comes together simply and effectively with some synergy.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.5
    Its needed for the build, and it does ok by it.



    Xepher Lod - 15.25 (3.81 average)
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    Originality 5
    Though short, the story is different and intrigued me beyond any of the others here. I like 'The Hunger' as you put it. Very Sylar-like. The mish-mash of abilities is also unexpected, especially as they seem to at least half-way work. Also a good number of tricks I've never seen. There is also no ardent, no Educated feat, no spiked chain. Congrats, you get my secret extra point!

    Power 3.5
    This guy is tough to pin down, but has quite a few odd tricks, even if his saves ref and will aren't great. He's basically pure quantity.

    Elegance 3
    Y'know what, I'm just going to remain neutral here. You have so much going on I'm not sure about elegance. Many things work well together, but there is so bloody much going on its 'too' complex.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.75
    I think you definitely make use of the secret ingredient, and it meshes well with the illithid feats and background amongst other bits. However, so much is going on you could take it out as well.



    Daken - 11 (2.75 average)
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    Originality 3
    Gonna take a little off due to those aberrant feats and Girallan arms as I was totally going to do the same and they are standard reach-increasing tricks. Also another Educated slide-in. Funnily enough half-orcs and incarnum have also always gone together in my head.

    However, do have somewhat of a background, and half-orc paragon is something not oft seen.

    Power 3.5
    He seems of sufficient power, and has a few tricks that I give a nod to.

    Elegance 2
    Gonna hit you a bit here. This is like two classes, one for psionic attacking and, one for incarnum attacking. Through feats they somewhat mesh, but it also feels weird that he just up and sparked psionics in the midst of his natural incarnum.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 2.5
    Its used, like all the reach builds have so far, but it could have gone without it, or cut out incarnum all together. It just feels like one of two pieces pushed together.



    Khalanatari 16.5 (4.125 average)
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    Originality - 3.5
    Don't see many khalashtar around these parts, and I had to look up Atavist even. Those embedded shards are a new trick on me, so I'm gonna give you a bonus all around, though it may be because of my general Eberron ignorance.

    However, no story? No flavor text? This makes me sad, he has such flavor otherwise.

    Power 4.5
    That may be the highest AC I've seen in here, and he packs quite a punch.

    Elegance 4.5
    I think everything comes together extremely smoothly. It has an elegant feel in all its facets and in general rolls across my palate.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 4
    Though perhaps not mandatory to the build, it is the logical extension of the classes before it and they all add up to it.


    This is probably the most well-rounded build in the whole lot. I'd really have liked a background to it.



    Esha Two Bears - 16 (4 average)
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    Originality - 4
    Though there is no reason there shouldn't be, a flaming red-headed Elan barbarian amuses me. He also has an interesting concept behind it. I like the Horizon Walker for its 'and he walked off into the sunset' feel.

    Also no spiked chain. Good job.

    Power 3.5
    Though a powerful build, nothing particularly impressive catches my eye. I do like the Horizon Walker trick however to make him a tireless rager.

    Elegance - 4.5
    The use of its damage reducing abilities works well with an Elan barbarian, especially at early levels, and in general everything synergizes with the other into a very nicely put together build.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 4
    I think you use it well and it is the mainstay of the build.



    Dolgan Whurard - 16.5 (4.125 average)
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    Originality 4
    Theme is like dwarven cliche in some bits, yet you have made the first build that made me want to use a Divine Mind. I usually just ignore it when scrolling through my Complete Psionic. Also the only one I see here. The little Battlesmith dip is just a tad conspicuous, but this is a very dwarveny dwarf, so whatchagonnado? I simply like him.

    Edit: You also don't grapple or use Expansion or a spiked chain or anything that's been overdone. Surprised you didn't use any of the Races of Stone psionic feats for drawing power out of the ground, etc.

    Power 4.25
    Though in this competition his attacks are not exactly awing, it is extremely strong by itself, and those are some incredible defenses, AC and save-wise. Nice Serenity trick. Very well done.

    Elegance 4.5
    Divine Mind is, thematically, possibly one of the psionic classes best suited to the War Mind, perhaps even more so than Psychic Warrior. Though you deviate from a pure psionic fighter, its done in an elegant and thematically appropriate way. Everything goes into making this one of the best psychic dwarves I've seen.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.75
    War Mind itself has a strong place in this build, and continues on where Divine Mind leaves off. It works more thematically than strength-wise, but I have no complaints.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-10-13 at 10:16 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Sweet! New judgings!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Since VT did his judging twice in half the time it took me to do mine, I felt inspired to get it finished. I think we are only waiting on Dubious Pie at this point.

    Dolgan Whurard
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    Originality: 3, Divine Mind, a terrible class. None the less, it does fit in, and the Guardian Mantle is pretty fitting. I like the Battlesmith splash, too.

    Power: 3.5, very tanky. Strong start and strong finish, but the middle (8-12ish) looks a bit saggy. Things are scaling fast in this range, but your defenses seem to cap out while waiting for other features to kick in. Could have benefitted from a bit of Law Devotion for a sacred bonus to AC if you had TU to power it.

    Elegance: 3.5, Divine Mind is a lot smoother than PsyWar2/Pal2/Whatever1, and is still decently strong for what you want it for. I donít see the real need for Hidden Talent at 1 other than the extra PP, since Divine Mind qualifies you for War Mind.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, excellent use of the more defense aspects of War Mind. You didnít really capitalize on using Sweeping Strikes, the coolest feature, by expanding your reach but you did focus on most of it.


    Esha Two Bears
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    Originality: 3, nothing to profound, but nonetheless effective.

    Power: 4, Expansion is usually a winner. Could have traded Powerful Charge (a crappy feat) for Practiced Manifester (Warmind) and started instantly with a ML of 5. This would have given him more bonus PP from Wisdom, as well as the ability to augement powers faster. Destructive Rage is pretty crappy too. Still, a resilient, powerful, and dangerous foe.

    Elegance: 5, I like the simplicity of the build. Acknowledges the limitations of both Barbarian and Fighter, utilizing both to maximize early level strength while War Mind makes up for mid-level strength. Taking Education while Illiterate is kinda goofy, but technically legal.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, use of Expansion from War Mind is pretty much par for the course. It makes Sweeping Strikes more worthwhile. Nothing too creatively utilized other than this fact though.


    Khalanatari
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    Originality: 4, Atavist is a really unique way of showcasing Warmindís Sweeping Strikes feature. Very nicely done.

    Power: 3, a monk that doesnít suck completely! Of course, Tash more than makes up for it, but still. I like how you have 17/20 monk progression on nearly everything. Itís a bit saggy at first, since itís what, 7th level till you at least get 1d8. Also, the Str gained and Dex lost from Expansion is counter to a build based off Expansion, which gives you funny results. All in all, blooms rather late with a kind of saggy middle. Not terribly saggy, but pretty lackluster. Starts a bit slow as well, since it doesnít qualify for Finesse at the start, so it would have to be swapped with Versatile UAS. Could really use Standstill or some other control feat to round out the build.

    Elegance: 3, I told you I was gonna mark builds down for not posting their PP totals. Other than that, build flows ok, escapes from monk after 2 frontloaded levels. Doesnít really have anything to tie in the large reach and lockdown abilities though.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, War Mind comes a bit late, but Atavistís Aggressive Spirit Lineage really helps it out. 20í reach with unarmed strikes is pretty impressive, especially with Thicket and Defensive Sweep.


    Daken
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    Originality: 5, Half-orc paragon into Totem Rager is something Iíd never thought of. I like it. Itís simple yet elegant. Deepspawn is also a nice addition.

    Power: 3.5, Sweeping Strikes comes a little late, and I think some of your power choices are a bit lackluster. Painful Strike? Granted, you have a lot of natural attacks, but itís hardly worth the action. Also, with all of those natural attacks, encountering DR is gonna be a bummer, especially exotic DR like that of high level Demons and Devils.

    Elegance: 4, build progresses well from HOP to Totemist to Totem Rager. War Mind feels a little tacked on, but still adds nicely to the build. It would have been nice if War Mind could have been bumped forward, at least till level 5, so that sweeping strikes could be enjoyed for more than 6 levels.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, while I like the Totemist aspect, if feels like War Mind kinda takes a back seat to it. The build primarily uses the War Mind abilities to augment his Totemist abilities, rather than the other way around.


    Xepher Lod
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    Originality: 4, Illithid Grapple is fun, and combines well with Sweeping Strikes as indicated.

    Power: 3.5, Very slow start. Lowish HP and doesnít even get first BAB until level 3. Adds up nicely from there, though. Spectacular grappling optimization, especially with (Improved) Multigrab to be able to overcome the biggest difficulty that grapplers have: multiple targets! Has Dispel Magic, but by the time it gets it, using it to clear FoM buffs is probably a wasted action and wonít be successful.

    Elegance: 3, seems to start off very clumsily with a few base classes that have little synergy. The wizard dip would have most likely been beneficial at ECL 10 after bumping Warmind down a full level. This gets you Sweeping Strikes a level earlier as well. PsyWar2 also gets you lots of bonus feats and the skills and PP you need to get into War Mind. Good cutoff point.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, one of the best uses of Sweeping Strikes in this competition. Combining it with Improved Grab is genius and really allows you to blenderize foes you scoop up into square.


    Tanis
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    Originality: 3, Ape totem is unique/interesting, but thatís about it.

    Power: 2, I see a lot of conflicting abilities. There is a focus on ranged attacks, yet martial strikes which can only be initiated in melee. Eventually BSB allows you to make strikes at range, but only Iron Heart ones, of which you only have 1 of, which ironically doesnít work with Thunderous Throw due to having the additional qualifier of requiring that you threaten both foes. Almost whole build concept is at war with itself.

    Elegance: 1, doesnít qualify for Sudden Leap. You need 1 other TC maneuver known to take Sudden Leap. Also, Sweeping Strikes doesnít work with Bloodstorm Bladeís Returning Weapon ability. You donít threaten foes outside of your reach. Sweeping Strikes requires that you threaten the squares you use it on.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 1, Bloodstorm Blade and War Mind have conflicting abilities. You canít combine them in any way. Synergistically, there is really nothing special going on here.


    Violet Rose
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    Originality: 3, taking advantage of half giant size is good, even if itís not terribly unique. Perfect Riposte is pretty much awesome here though.

    Power: 2.5, terribly MAD. I see Str, Int, Con, Wis, and Dex. Likely to be woefully short on PP, and only halfass benefiting from +Int to damage and +Wis to AC due to the need to split stats. Interesting use of powers though, which redeems you a little bit. Decent Knowedge Devotion use though.

    Elegance: 4, relatively streamlined build. Probably could have bumped PsyWar level down at least one level to even out your IL before that 3rd or 4th SS level. War Mind also comes in a bit late, would be nice to enjoy Sweeping Strikes for more than the last 7 levels. Other than that, not bad.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, doesnít REALLY take special advantage of Sweeping Strikes other than through Expansion. Practiced Manifester does help add some PP nicely, though.


    Krelb the Canny
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    Originality: 2.5, Venerable Dragonwrought kobold is not a unique or special snowflake. Like Iron Mind though.

    Power: 4, pretty strong stacking of DR. War Mind, Iron Mind, Roll With It, Greater Resilience, and Endure Blows DR all specifically stack with other types of DR/-. Practiced Manifester + Ardent is also a strong combo to make up for dead levels, especially when you come back into it with Iron Mind to reap some higher level powers.

    Elegance: 1, massive point markdown here for Wyrm of War. Even if it might be technically legal, good luck passing that off in a real game. The IO competition is about making awesome playable characters. Sovereign Archtypes are not supposed to be used like that. The golf bag full of weapons idea seems nice on paper, but you canít exactly switch weapons in combat when the tactic is required. This requires some pretty extensive foreknowledge to have the most optimum weapon ready. Youíd be best off just soaking your cash into one really good weapon and forcing it to be the best weapon in all circumstances. Also, while most of your DR stacks, Armor Specialization and Biofeedback donít. Youíd have to choose one to be your base to stack all the others on.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, makes excellent use of the classí DR, on top of the other abilities, including Sweeping Strikes. A nice tankalicious tank.


    Sublime Mind of War
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    Originality: 1, not even trying. Nothing unique or amazing here. Not even a hint of story either.

    Power: 3, whatever maneuvers you pick, you canít help but be decent. Power selection is ok. Since itís a buff based build, could have SERIOUSLY benefitted from Link Power to cut down buff time. Linking Expansion and GCA would turn 2 rounds of power buffing into one.

    Elegance: 2, no mention of which maneuvers would make this build go, or which ones would synergize with your War Mind abilities. The only redeeming point is that you spaced out the levels appropriately to maximize IL to get a new maneuver of the given level at the earliest point possible. Almost no technical write-up and no suggested equipment.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5, other than slight mention of Wis synergy and a brief mention of Sweeping Strikes, build seems to focus more on Swordsage abilities than War Mind. This begs the question, why War Mind? Other than the fact that it was the SIÖ


    Ultimo Tarrasco Jr
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    Originality: 5, great story, great abilities. I kept hearing a voice shouting ďSunday Sunday Sunday!Ē the whole time while reading it. Totemist groping abilities are also awesome.

    Power: 4.5, very strong grappler, check-wise. Grapple damage is pretty pitiful though. 1d4 at large size, or 1d8 when Expanded to huge. Still, 2 sources of Constrict help even this out and grapple is primarily a lockdown ability anyway. Great combination of Improved Grab and Sweeping Strikes. Grab brings foes into your square(s), which stacks them up so you can Sweeping Strikes everyone in the pile. Ouchies!

    Elegance: 4, my only really big beef is that you waited SOOOO long to take that 2nd Totemist level. Binding Girallon Arms to your Totem is so awesome. It would have been better to take that instead of the 2nd Fighter level before heading into War Mind. Small beef is regarding Weapon Focus Grapple. This wouldnít increase your grapple checks, since Weapon Focus only increases attack rolls and a grapple check isnít an attack roll. It would only increases the touch attack to start a grapple, which you donít make due to Imp Grab.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, one of the best uses of Sweeping Strikes due to the Imp Grab ability. Also makes excellent use of powers and other abilities.


    Bosleigh Eddon
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    Originality: 4.5, Incarnate adds a ton here, and using Tash with War Mind is a great idea. This one took a long time to fully grasp, but is actually remarkably simple despite its complexity.

    Power: 5, versatility is king here. This character can do a little of everything. Impossible to lock down, painful to ignore, and full of nasty surprises, this characters diverse abilities converge with one purposeÖto make your life uncomfortable with big meaty damagefists.

    Elegance: 5, well optimized. Utilizes a TON of power break points to get the best frontloaded abilities while avoiding pesky things like multiclass penalties. Tash bleeds the Monk together with the War Mind to reach the all important 12th level effective Monk level for Greater Flurry. Mauling Gauntlets on top of size stacking meatfists make for a load of damage and snagging Improved Trip from Passive Way while circumventing Combat Expertese (and its Int requirements) negates MAD. Practiced Manifester on Ardent allows the late level Soul Manifester levels pick up some great endgame powers and Open Chakra at the top of War Mind along with Practiced Manifester, Invest Power, and a couple other ML boosters/cost reducers allow you to hit ML17 fully augemented Open Chakra to get access to Throat and Waist Chakras, as needed. Both Practiced Manifester feats also increase your PP pool by a significant margin, which is useful in all circumstances.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5, I can see how War Mind is important here, but you didnít really showcase it as well as you could have. More description!


    As always, I tried to be as diligent as possible. If I missed something, please use the proper channels to petition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
    A beholderís favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    I'll get the current totals rounded up tomorrow. As I believe that puts us at 4 judges, I'm not planning on waiting for any more unless we hear from them in the next day.

    There are, however, a couple of disputes that I will put up shortly-- I just need to look over them in more detail first. I should have them up in a couple hours (I have some chores that need tending first).

    I should also note here that the trophies might be delayed this round. I've not heard back from Strategos yet.
    (This might largely be due to the fact that I apparently never hit send on the message I thought I sent at the beginning of the contest and didn't actually send Strategos a message till early this week.)
    If Strategos is unavailable, I'll make other arrangements, but it may involve delays. My sincere apologies to all involved.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-10-14 at 02:39 AM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Also, VT, the Ardent thing is perfectly legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Psionic, pg 7
    At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she can not learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.
    The level of powers you can select is only dependant on what you can manifest, which is capped by your manifester level. Unlike Psions (and Wizards even) who follow a table, an Ardent is only bound by his manifester level (and Practiced Manifester explicitly affects your manifester level). This is balanced around the fact that an Ardent's power list is REDICULOUSLY tiny. Most Ardents begin play with access to only about 16-20 powers worth of potential. At level 2, they add another 8-10 powers, and at level 5, 10, and 15, they gain yet more mantles. The thing is, if you stop taking Ardent levels, you never get any more mantles. So while a Psion chooses 36 powers from a list of what...200+ powers, an Ardent chooses only a handful from a list of often as few as 24-30 powers. So while an Ardent is multiclass friendly for 4 levels without losing anything in terms of highest level powers known, he's not gaining any of the PP for those lost levels or any more mantles (and thus potential powers known). Heck, depending on the mantles you choose, you might not even have powers of a given level to learn.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-10-14 at 02:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
    A beholderís favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Disputes:
    It should be noted that not all disputes come from the chef that prepared the dish.

    @true_shinken
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    At least one judge so far has commented on Daken's psionic powers being incompatible with Rage. By my reading, that's an order-of-operations issue that shouldn't come up. Daken's powers have durations almost exclusively measured in rounds/level, so he can manifest them at the first round of combat, or even prior to it if he knows it's coming. Powers like Claws of the Vampire do not, by my reading, require Concentration to maintain. He can Rage immediately after that manifestation, because:

    Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone elseís action.
    So, why can Daken not manifest, and then Rage?
    true_shinken's scoring of Daken indicates that, aside from the fact that education is overly common this round, he also felt that it was a poor fit for the character. On the contrary, the comic character has demonstrated a fair degree of education, including knowing several languages and having some notable knowledge of classical theater.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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  26. - Top - End - #236
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    OMG PONIES's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Totemist groping abilities are also awesome.
    I giggled.

    THE [NON]FINAL(!) TALLY
    {table=head]Place|Name|Total Score|Average Score
    Gold|Ultimo Tarrasco, Jr|64.25|4.02
    Silver|Esha Two Bears|60.5|3.78
    Third|Dolgan Whurard|56.5|3.53
    Fourth (tie)|Khalanatari, Ascetic Nightmare|55.5|3.47
    Fourth (tie)|Daken|55.5|3.47
    Sixth|Xepher Lod, Harbinger of Consumption|54.75|3.42
    Seventh|Bosleigh Eddon|53.5|3.34
    Eighth|Violet Rose|50.5|3.16
    Ninth|Krelb the Canny|47.5|2.97
    Tenth|Tanis Bloodblade|47.25|2.95
    Eleventh|Sublime Mind of War|42|2.63
    [/table]

    EDIT: Good job pointing out that Bloodstorm Blade doesn't work with Sweeping Strike, Keld. I somehow missed that--and almost submitted a build on a flawed premise .
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-10-15 at 10:17 AM.
    Busy weekend; hope to update all threads by Monday AM.

    Iron Chef Optimization Challenge Old Head and Unofficial Archivist
    Yelling at You Dang Kids to Get Off my Lawn Since 2010

    This is what happens when they let me DM: Beyond the Horizon!

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post

    THE FINAL(?) TALLY
    Not yet. I've got some more disputes in the inbox since last night that I need to look over.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Disputes:
    So, why can Daken not manifest, and then Rage?
    He can. It's still a limitation.

    true_shinken's scoring of Daken indicates that, aside from the fact that education is overly common this round, he also felt that it was a poor fit for the character. On the contrary, the comic character has demonstrated a fair degree of education, including knowing several languages and having some notable knowledge of classical theater.
    Well, recreating a comics' character is hardly original (specially a darker and edgier version of a dark and edgy character), for starters. Also, you can't assume any judges do know that comic character. And I gave all builds with Education the exact same penalty. I gave Daken a penalty because Education does not fit his presented background; Wolderine Origins and Dark Wolverine were not his presentes background, I believe.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-10-14 at 11:53 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    And one final dispute, this time for OMG PONIES

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosleigh
    From OMG PONIES judging for Bosleigh:
    POWER: 2.5 Itís tricky to score the power of this build, because I donít know what I should try comparing it to. Compared to a straight ardent, itís weaker. Compared to a straight incarnate, itís weaker. Compared to a straight monk, itís definitely stronger. However, it seems like Bosleigh suffers from the ability to do a little bit of everything, but nothing well. Also, retraining Open Least Chakra means that you canít bind Mauling Gauntlets to your hand chakra until 19th level.
    Bosleigh has some of the strongest melee stats of any contestant. The main focus is damage and tripping is only an addition since it is effective. He also has very versatile power list and soul melds allowing him to move anywhere and even heal out of combat. The incarnum and ardent aspects are all focused on amplifying the melee powers from a talshtora war mind.

    He learns the open chakra power at the same point that he retrains the open chakra feat.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-10-15 at 03:33 AM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    And I gave all builds with Education the exact same penalty.
    I think the basis of the dispute was that you gave it an elegance penalty in addition to the standard originality penalty which you gave to all builds with the feat. (I wouldn't have forwarded it if I though it was regarding the standardized deduction your were making to Originality).

    Interestingly enough, that dispute wasn't from the chef, but rather from someone else (who is apparently a big Dark Wolverine fan). The comic geek in me felt compelled to forward it, even if the character isn't my favorite.

    _________________________________________

    Some more general notes:
    Unless something comes up, I should finalize the scores late tonight. You can start sending ideas for the next round.

    In addition, I'll be moving the Round 11 paperwork from my Inbox to archival. If anyone needs me to send something from that round back to them for their own records, it will be significantly faster to let me know now.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-10-15 at 03:49 AM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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