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Thread: Celestia

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    Default Celestia

    So I've been reading both the Asmodeus thread and the Lords of the Nine thread, I got curious, and started reading through a bunch of different stuff, and eventually came upon the 7 layers of Celestia. As I was reading through all that, I noticed that Jaziran (the other serpent of law with asmodeus) is just a god that has a realm in the 4th layer, while his apparent counterpart in evil is the ruler of all the nine hells.

    there was a short blurb about how he/she is content to sit back and watch what asmodeus is going to do, so as to be ready, but really? that seems so weak. and then it's all ruled (maybe) Zaphkiel.

    I thought about just asking this in the Asmodeus thread, but it's a little off topic, and I didn't wan't to derail. I doubt this one will get anywhere near as interesting though. heaven just isn't as cool as hell. but, does anyone have thoughts on this?
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Not entirely sure what you're asking, honestly. If you are asking, "is it sad that the forces of good didn't get even 10% of the detail the forces of evil did in 3.5?" then yes, I fully agree with you. If you're asking if we care about Jaziran, well, I can say with fervor that no, I don't.

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    Default Re: Celestia

    Evil is simply more fun so we get focused on more ^_^
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    Default Re: Celestia

    In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

    The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

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    Default Re: Celestia

    The thing is...

    Well, the thing is, WotC is lazy, and probably biased, and I cannot thoroughly deconstruct their design flaws without violating the forum rules about IRL religion. However, WotC wrote "good" under the basic assumption that most players didn't engage in any manner of serious moral thought, and as such could leave much of the Upper Planes vague as a fill-in-the-blanks kind of thing. On the other hand, they could fill the Lower Planes with the rather thorough (and handily pre-made!) list of Bad Things including, but not limited to, sexual deviancy (OF ANY KIND), lying or theft (FOR ANY REASON, including to preserve one's life), killing sapient beings that are not evil-aligned (FOR ANY REASON, including to save further lives), et cetera, so forth.


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    Default Re: Celestia

    Quote Originally Posted by heymejack View Post
    As I was reading through all that, I noticed that Jaziran (the other serpent of law with asmodeus) is just a god that has a realm in the 4th layer, while his apparent counterpart in evil is the ruler of all the nine hells.
    It's not a matter of level of detail or even favoritism of evil, it's simply a matter of redundant naming. There's JAZIRIAN, one of the Twin Serpents, champion of all that is Good and Law, co-creator of the Wheel, etc. etc. etc., and then there's Jazirian, the minor deity of couatls (possible an aspect of the above Jazirian) who nobody really cares about. The LG-mirror-of-Asmodeus Jazirian in the other thread is the former version; the Jazirian puttering about in Celestia is the latter.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Quote Originally Posted by HunterOfJello View Post
    In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

    The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.
    This is kind of it.

    If Good was as powerful as Evil then the PCs become less. D&D is a game of epic heroism; you are the only hope for Good. Therefore Good must be impotent without you.

    That and inconstant portrayals. Also most of the information we get about Asmodeus and other big bad evils is according to itself myths that were probably made by the fiends themselves. With Celestia you just get the top layer and a fill in the blanks yourself.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    I /wish/ that Celestial and Co were as filled out =|

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    It's not a matter of level of detail or even favoritism of evil, it's simply a matter of redundant naming. There's JAZIRIAN, one of the Twin Serpents, champion of all that is Good and Law, co-creator of the Wheel, etc. etc. etc., and then there's Jazirian, the minor deity of couatls (possible an aspect of the above Jazirian) who nobody really cares about. The LG-mirror-of-Asmodeus Jazirian in the other thread is the former version; the Jazirian puttering about in Celestia is the latter.
    In the Dicefreaks version, it suggests that the Twin Serpents legend is itself a distortion of the truth- there were three serpents, not two- the "Supreme Virtue" is not called Jazirian.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    yeah, i don't have a question, as such. I just got really engrossed by the asmo discussion, and then got curious once i was going through some of the celestia stuff. It makes perfect sense that the designers put a lot more focus on the place where adventurers might actually want to go for killin' things and taking their stuff. running around the mountain of heaven killin' dwarves with halos doesn't sound that fun.

    unless of course you were planning on running an evil, invasion into heaven campaign.

    you know, hypothetically or whatever



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    Last edited by heymejack; 2010-09-30 at 05:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    By that point you're on the scale of blowing planes away and Mechanus-Bot is after you, so.... yeah...
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    By that point you're on the scale of blowing planes away and Mechanus-Bot is after you, so.... yeah...
    That also sounds like a fun adventure hook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    On the other hand, they could fill the Lower Planes with the rather thorough (and handily pre-made!) list of Bad Things including, but not limited to, sexual deviancy (OF ANY KIND), lying or theft (FOR ANY REASON, including to preserve one's life), killing sapient beings that are not evil-aligned (FOR ANY REASON, including to save further lives), et cetera, so forth.
    BoVD does state lying is not always an evil act.

    And, that killing a sapient being that's about to commit mass murder (even if they've been conned into it) is not an evil act if it's the only way.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-09-30 at 06:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    That also sounds like a fun adventure hook.

    I KNOW!


    Ever since I ran into the idea I've been in love with it...x.x

    Err, sorry to be tangential...

    As far as Celestia goes...

    I always saw the primary weakness/discrepancy between the Upper and Lower planes was that the Upper Planes reunite the essence/souls from the material with the universe as they advance through the path of enlightenment they've chosen in live and continue upon in death. Well, either the universe or the ultimate source of LG, NG, or CG. Whereas the lower planes aside from the Grey Waste (where the petitioners are nearly immediately destroyed by being eroded away until they're just more of the landscape) make the souls of their petitioners into more fiends, magic items, currency, and/or food, thus increasing their power.

    There's some small discussion of the tippy-top tier of evil fiends becoming more one with their planes in passing but everything about them suggests a much more here and now power and gratification in contrast to the celestials who weaken themselves by generally only accepting volunteers into their ranks from the souls that pass through their care.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Maybe Asmodeus, the Primus of the Modrons, and Zaphkiel, could all be avatars? Zaphkiel has the Stigmata feat- maybe he got the wounds from the original battle between the Supreme Virtue and the future Overlord of Hell- with the Silver Sea being the blood of the Supreme Virtue that fell from its wounds, as Dicefreaks's Gates of Hell suggests?

    Might explain why, even after being slain by Orcus/Tenebrous, the Primus was fairly quickly replaced by a new, similar Primus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Might explain why, even after being slain by Orcus/Tenebrous, the Primus was fairly quickly replaced by a new, similar Primus.
    A Primus is always replaced by an identical one... except the one time Orcus messed with the modron hierarchy.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Hence- the idea that the Primus is actually an avatar of the Serpent of Mechanus- and when killed, the Serpent simply manifests a new avatar.

    The Overlord of Hell has been known to manifest very different avatars (Lucifer and Asmodeus) but the Serpent of Mechanus could prefer identical ones.

    (The serpent being no longer in serpentine form- but having been broken into the form of the cogs of Mechanus, at the dawn of time).

    Maybe on very special occasions- the End of All Things, for example, the whole of Mechanus could animate as a gigantic mechanical serpent?

    The Regalia of Good, Evil, and Neutrality could have been created to be worn by these avatars, before being gifted to champions of these three alignments. In Arms and Equipment Guide, an inevitable (kolyarut) is shown wearing the Regalia of Neutrality.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-10-01 at 04:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    I hope I don't sound really stupid, but I've read most of the 3E/3.5 books and have never heard of these "Serpents of Law" thingies. Anyone care to enlighten me?
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    Default Re: Celestia

    The original concept was in the very late 2nd ed book Guide to Hell (1999).

    Dicefreaks revisited it, modifying it slightly to fit their own concept (as a legend, rather than entirely accurate- with the LG Serpent not in fact being the deity Jazirian).

    3.0 Manual of the Planes raises the notion of Asmodeus as a miles-long serpent, possibly a fallen greater deity, possibly something even more fundemental, whose very existence might shape the planes in some way. This may be a hint as to the 2nd ed Guide to Hell story.

    The Greyhawk Wiki discusses the many portrayals of Asmodeus:

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Asmodeus
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-10-01 at 07:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Quote Originally Posted by DythTheKobold View Post
    I /wish/ that Celestial and Co were as filled out =|
    That sound like a large project that would require the efforts of a forum of people who already have a d&d homebrew community, oh wait...
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Maybe start by taking the Dicefreaks version of Baator, and using it as inspiration?

    Import the deity mechanics, and fill out each of the Celestial Hebdomad in at least as much depth as the Lords of the Nine got. Maybe with revised versions of some of the celestials as well, new feats, spells, PRCs, and so on.

    It would, in essence, be "BoED done right" (or rather, a part of it- since it would just be Celestia getting the full detailing).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-10-01 at 07:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Ibelievw dicefreaks is on it.

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    Default Re: Celestia

    They have been for years, though, without much progress. Same as with the abyss and the fairy project.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterOfJello View Post
    In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

    The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.
    Wait, I thought the wheel stated that everything was in perfect balance?

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    Default Re: Celestia

    "Perfect balance" in this case might be "roughly equal amounts of influence on the Material Plane and the Outer Planes."

    So- the various outerplanar operations on the Material Plane would not be especially dominated by any one side.

    Devils and Demons might outnumber the other factions- but the extra numbers, are tied up in the Blood War- so their overall influence is comparable to the other factions.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    step 1 rewrite the cr 14 tome archon into a cr 20 pit fiend/balor equivalent.
    step 2 rewrite the summoning table so that the good monsters of the same cr are not introduced 1-2 spell levels later.
    Last edited by blackjack217; 2010-10-01 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Celestia

    Throne Archons could do with a rewrite, yes.

    Maybe dig up the various other archons (the stone-centric archon in Races of Stone, the psionic one in Complete Psionic, the truenaming one in Tome of Magic, etc).
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    Default Re: Celestia

    Deal is, even if you go evil. Eventually you run afoul of the demons and devils anyway. They don't like new competition.

    Coarse then things can get really fun, cause team good might decide that it's time for you to go. Team Evil wants your head on a stick, just cause. And Team Neutral just sits their watching, grinning like an idiot. Nary a friend in the 'verse, and it's too late to run. Ah...good times....good times.

    In all honestly though. Not many people want to invade heaven. Not as many books because they would not sell well.

    I've never even heard of this person your speaking of and I have played D&D for 20 years, yet I can nearly recall the stat block of Orcus (cause he is my fav evil bad guy).

    Good, I have always assumed, was better organized, and didn't need nearly as many people. Besides they call on the adventures all the live long day so they don't need help.
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    Default Re: Celestia

    maybe someone should start a homebrew thread... (not me I left my books at home when I went to collage).
    As to the tome archons yeah.. they are fluffed like pit fiend equivalents at a cr of 14.

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    Default Re: Celestia

    The problem with making Throne Archons = Pit Fiends is that there already is a good creature that = pit fiends and balors, and beats them both senseless.

    Everybody's favorite gateable creature Mr. Solar. Been there since at least 2e (and I'm not checking 1e right now) and has been stronger than any non-unique demon or devil since then.
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