Why orcs/goblinoids/trolls/ogres are evil?

[Salbazier]

Okay, they are not always described as evil or have evil tendency in every settings, like in the case of Eberron. But, in settings that do portray then as evil, why they are evil in the first place? Is it because they are created by gods to be evil? Deep-rooted values and tradition that hard to change? twisted living environment in the beginning of their history that set up their mindset? Something to do with genetics?

So, thoughts?

[tyckspoon]

Because it makes it easier to justify killing them.

In a more serious vein, orcs and goblinoids tend to have evil gods driving them on. Gruumsh's dogma is not necessarily Evil, but it is definitely in conflict with the tenets of the good/'civilized' races and it tends to encourage evil interpretations and applications. More monstrously-styled things are usually just predators that are intelligent enough to learn to enjoy killing and cruelty; they don't have to be evil, but the ones adventurers run into usually are because they're the ones who are hunting humans instead of satisfying themselves on wild game.

[LibraryOgre]

Depends on the game and the era.

I tend to assume that they have some naturally evil tendencies (e.g. they naturally tend to be more aggressive, or have a predilection towards cruelty, or a relatively low sense of empathy), but a large portion of it is socialization. Those tendencies become socially reinforced, both because everyone else has them, and because their religion reinforces them further. However, that's a fairly modern view; I want to say it became more prevalent with 2nd edition, and was reinforced by 3e's "Always, Usually, Often" notations on alignments, but I don't think it was unheard of in earlier games.

A lot of older players simply assume that they are evil because they are evil... you don't find good orcs or minotaurs outside of a helm of opposite alignment or such super-rare circumstances that they have to be considered singularly. You'll find this frequently on Dragonsfoot, but it's by no means the only view... a number of people are in my camp, as well.

[Dr.Epic]

Because they've always been evil in classic mythology. Why are elves always portrayed as good?

[Zore]

Because they've always been evil in classic mythology. Why are elves always portrayed as good?

Mythologically Elves 'goodness' is owed mainly to Tolkein in respect to D&D. In most mythology they are either fey, and evil bewitching baby stealers, or analogous to what we now think of as dwarves.

[RndmNumGen]

Yeah, goblinoids are evil because they have always been evil. If you mean actual reasons why they are considered evil, it is usually because they are cruel or sadistic, with aggressive tendencies and they see no problems with killing to accomplish their goals.

[Salbazier]

Yeah, goblinoids are evil because they have always been evil. If you mean actual reasons why they are considered evil, it is usually because they are cruel or sadistic, with aggressive tendencies and they see no problems with killing to accomplish their goals.

No, I mean reason for those attitude/tendencies

[Gerrtt]

Another alternative viewpoint is that they are twisted variants of good or benign races. What did the twisting is up for discussion, evil gods, gods who felt like experimentin', or of course "a wizard did it". In this case you get the grounds for usually/sometimes/always in their alignment. Just like you might get an occasional evil surface elf you might get the occasional good-natured goblin who likes to come over for tea.

And wear a monocle and top hat but not shoes. Hey, it happens.

[Greenish]

Why are elves always portrayed as good?

They're pretty and shiny and sparkly.

Orcs, goblinoids, trolls and ogres, on the other hand…

[jguy]

Mythologically Elves 'goodness' is owed mainly to Tolkein in respect to D&D. In most mythology they are either fey, and evil bewitching baby stealers, or analogous to what we now think of as dwarves.

I like the Lorwyn Elves (pre-shadowmoore) from Magic: the Gathering. They are the typical aloof, very pretty, long lived version of elves but taken to the logical extreme. Anyone not as pretty as them are considered "Eye-Blights" and are killed on sight for daring sully the elves eyes. A political assassin of the elves simply have a knife to scar the face of the target. Ugly = death.

Edit: Oh, while typical elves are simply green mana, Lorwyn elves are green and BLACK.

[Tam_OConnor]

They're about as evil as the Gauls were, compared to the Romans, or those babbling northerners to the Greeks. The cultural divide is just too wide to gap. Leastwise, that's my campaign world's explanation. I mean, when the main deity is the god of civilization, and orcs worship their ancestors instead... you can see where the problem lies.

Goblinoids were bred from elves and dwarves to be a warrior race for the Fey Courts, so they're culturally pre-dispositioned to be misanthropic.

Ogres, giants and the like: pretty much the same excuse as orcs, only they've also got the problem of being prime vectors for demonic possession (big, strong, weak-willed).

EDIT: And I just noticed I'm an orc. I'm not an apologist! Don't cleave me!

[Ravens_cry]

I had an idea where Orcs generally live in forests, kind of like gorillas. For most, they are a quiet folk, living in little hidden way villages. Never big on technology because when you are as strong as an orc, there is less of an incentive or need. Prone to long contemplation and thoughtfulness.
However, multiple births are considered evil, and one, or even both, are taken out of the forests and exposed on mountaintops. However, Orcs are so strong and good at surviving, that a surprising percentage of them survive to adulthood as feral Orcs. These bestial creatures, violent and predatory, are what most people think of when they think 'Orc' because that is what most civilized humanoids encounter.
Of course, this is also a universe where elves are the evolved descendants of what were basically seed-pods for a single species ecology, think Speaker for the Dead but on a larger scale, and Dwarves are

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Space Aliens

explaining their higher technological abilities.

[Crossblade]

They are the subject of racism. As Thaco pointed out in Goblin's Comic. I'd reference a few key comics, but I can't link easily from my iPhone; someone else can have the honour.

[ericgrau]

Societal + inborn tendency. Ya, fantasy tradition too. Ideally you should have a good number that don't follow the norm. For example did you know orcs are merely "often" chaotic evil, which means less than half of them but more than 1/9th of them are chaotic evil?

[Ignition]

What's that old saying about Winners Write the History Books? I think the ugly races are portrayed as evil because they lost. What they lost, depends; humans have all the best lands, elves have all the best magic, dwarves have all the best beer, etc. Orcs and the like have... brutality, and that's about it, but all the rest of the "nice" races can be pushed to equal acts of brutality.

So yeah, I think monstrous races are mean because they lost; they're probably just as decent and all that, but because we're seeing the game from the "winner" races' eyes, the orcs and their ilk are portrayed as evil. It is all perspective, after all

[TheEmerged]

Well, in my own case I've grown tired of the "noble savage" cliche where orcs/goblins/trolls/ogres/minotaurs are "misunderstood". So for my current campaign world (4e), I decided that most of the orcs/trolls/ogres are followers of Orcus (who is defined as Chaotic Evil in my campaign).

Goblins now... goblinoids are part of the world's metaplot, and see themselves as being Lawful Good (they're actually closer to Lawful Neutral with Lawful Evil tendencies). They're out to save the world from the lesser races, whether the lesser races see it that way or not

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No, the PC's aren't goblins For the record the drow of my world also think they're Lawful Good and are actually Lawful Evil, but that's a long story for another post.

[Yora]

Why?

Because!

[Felhammer]

Orc just like violence, its apart of their brutal primitive culture. It is the Human's and Demi-Human's role in the world to civilize such races, be that through forced conversion, destruction of native lifeways or whole sale slaughter.

More realistically, Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and Ogres don't look like Jimbob the Elf or Joebob the Dwarf or Jimmyjohnbob the Human, so obviously they are evil! At the heart of it, they are evil because people in the real world need an easy identifier as to who is- and is not good. They look different than us is a fairly easy (though morally ambiguous) solution.

[lsfreak]

I take the view that D&D alignment is biased towards modern thinking - and thus those races are not modern in their thinking.

Orcs lust for recognition. Thus they have various ways of standing out among the other orcs, the easiest one being extraordinarily violent to outsiders. The best hunters, most brilliant tacticians, and most brutal conquerors are the heroes. Along with living in a harsh environment also comes an extreme pragmatism that is alien to us. The old or crippled are left to die, babies born during drought are killed. They see no problem with this, as to let them live means dooming more to death.

Goblins are socialist. They live out their own lives on their own plots of land and in their own villages, and yet have extremely strong ties to the clan as a whole. Everyone is willing to donate for others, everyone works for their clanmates, even if it's for a goblin they've never met but simply have ties to the clan. Everything is for the good of the tribe. Others view this as a threat. Or, more often, have no idea what they're getting into. A farmer goes to a single goblin family across the river and demands a small plot of ancestral land back, and the farmer doing that views it as a wholly personal matter. The goblins, on the other hand, view it as an attack on the entire 50,000-goblin clan, and are going to respond as such.

Ogres, on the other hand, are actively persecuted, not because they are different or evil, but because they make excellent slaves. Strong, can be 'trained' to build, labor in fields, act as pack animals, and fight, and a sign of prestige. Their nomadic tendencies also lead them to have run-ins with backwater farms and villages, where the ogres intend no harm on the farmers but the farmers still see 20 ogres camping out at the edge of their farm.

[Dark_Nohn]

Mythologically Elves 'goodness' is owed mainly to Tolkein in respect to D&D. In most mythology they are either fey, and evil bewitching baby stealers, or analogous to what we now think of as dwarves.

I'd heard that the bastardization of elves and fey comes from the victorian era moreso than Tolkien.

[Pilum]

I read a rather interesting little article once, a part of which touched on the way Tolkien - or rather, his characters - referred to orcs et al. The author felt that there was a direct link between this and the way medieval chroniclers referred to the Mongols. Sweeping out of uncharted lands, laying waste to all they see and taking slaves... yep, I can see where that idea came from. Another intriguing point was that they couldn't be wholly cruel and wicked - given the ease with which they seem to tame wolves and worgs (and boars, wyverns and other assorted beasties for various other portrayals of them) they must have a patient and kind(ish) side - for animals, at least.

In short, the Warhammer approach of making them somewhat stereotypically "lower (under?)-class" English may have something to it - drink vast quantities of alcohol, keep (equivalents of) racing pigeons and fighting dogs and being prone to a spot of football hooliganism when they're on their travels!

[Saph]

Okay, they are not always described as evil or have evil tendency in every settings, like in the case of Eberron. But, in settings that do portray then as evil, why they are evil in the first place? Is it because they are created by gods to be evil? Deep-rooted values and tradition that hard to change? twisted living environment in the beginning of their history that set up their mindset? Something to do with genetics?

I go with "all of the above". Some of it is because they were designed by their deities to match the deity's alignment, some of it is because they have a culture that encourages and reinforces it, some of it is because everybody else has a strong prejudice against them, some of it is because they have a genetic predisposition towards a certain attitude, some of it is because they're seen as being evil even when they aren't, and some of it is because they just decide to be selfish and cruel as a result of their own free will. Real-life societies are complicated, so I like it when these sort of questions in games don't have simple answers, either.

[Lord Raziere]

those "monstrous" races are not "evil" at all, they are just victims of racism that makes them hate the "good" races with makes them attack them in revenge for it which perpetuates a cycle of hate and vengeance for thousands of years with the "good" races too biased towards themselves to see whats really happening and change something about it

[Endarire]

The simple and practical answer: "What else are ya gonna kill to level up?"

This is in part why I dislike the alignment system. I find it far too subjective to be worth it.

[Jota]

To borrow a page from Freakonomics, high birth rates combined with shrinking population densities (encroachment of the so-called 'civilized races') and minimal education tends to make for a impoverished people who squabble over what resources they have and create generations of disillusioned individuals with minimal regard for the law (or morals, if you will, but even that's unfair in the face of cultural relativism) or their fellow man.

Another element that you have to consider that is a drastic departure from racism as we know it in the real world is the fact the some races on whole really are less intelligent, less wise, or weaker than others, not as a matter of perception (as the dichotomy between blacks and whites in real life is), but as a matter of fact (see an orc: +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma). Justifying discrimination is easier when you can on whole, say that they are stupid, ugly (semantics, ignore the Charisma/looks thing for a moment), and lack common sense compared to the average human and be totally justified in that statement. Obviously any individual could defy these conventions, but they are still constrained by these very definitive modifiers (and considering the average array, there isn't much room for deviation in the general population).

To add onto that, it would be racism ("a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others") to place orcs as second class citizens because of their inferior mental attributes, because any individual orc might out-achieve any individual human, but it's much more justifiable than black/white discrimination because orcs do have a -2 modifier to all of their mental attributes, humans are all +0, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma all go some distance toward determining where you get in life.

Slightly off topic, but in a d20 world a -1 modifier (10 Intelligence vs 8) doesn't really mean that much compared to a +0 modifier because the d20 means infinitely more than your modifier at lower levels where over 90% of the population exists, but if you move to a 3d6 system (which in my opinion more accurately depicts reality) than every single point tends to matter a lot more, and racial discrimination is even more justifiable.

[Yahzi]

Another alternative viewpoint is that they are twisted variants of good or benign races.

This is the correct answer. Tolkien's orcs are the descendants of elves, twisted by Melkor; but in many other mythologies the evil races are spiritually (and therefore physically) degenerate forms of human beings.

[IonDragon]

All of my goblinoids eat babies.

That is all.

[GenericGuy]

I prefer in my settings for their “evil” to be born from their stupidity and inability to process their emotions logically. I like the idea of them having strong emotions that they simply cant control like a child throwing a temper tantrum, a very big child. I like them to be similar to earlier hominids rather than modern man, and being unable to construct nations and city-states. Their primitive nature just cant process an advanced civilization and concepts like law & order and cause & effect are just to abstract for them. So they see a group people with things they want and they take it, but not out of malice.

[Lord_Gareth]

Honestly, they're evil because no one in WotC's D&D division knows how to write. It starts with the whole concept of Racial Societies (extraordinarily lacking in logical sense right there), continues into the Grand and Terrible Alignment Debate, strays a little into Medieval Stasis, and finally ends at Someone's Gotta Die for Those Experience Points. If any given DM wants to justify a culture that's THE EVULZ, then, well, they've got a job of it, and good luck to them.

Orcs come the closest to actually having a justification. Their society is, essentially, a tribal theocracy. Now, theocracy is a bad idea no matter what way you spin it (this isn't a diss on religion so much as it is a statement that absolute secular power backed up by spiritual authority inevitably corrupts), but the god of the orcs emphasizes heroism in battle, rage, conflict, and glory (as well as hating elves) as his primary dogmatic features. I can easily imagine where a society ruled by his priests might have some...problems.

[Snake-Aes]

authority is inevitably corrupted

Fixed that for you. I agree with the rest.