The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[Iamyourking]

I must be doing something wrong then, as none of them look familiar to me. Although they do remind me that I should probably add a physical description of my three.

[Eldan]

Duma is lifted from Neil Gaiman's Sandman/Lucifer comic series. He was given the keys to hell.

[Iamyourking]

I see, most witty. Now to see what the others think up.

[blackjack217]

Sorry I took so long here we go:

Anorath: the joyful , the diplomat, Emissary tor Morwel, beloved of the queen
Some say Archons cannot be joyful and that all are stern and dour or as silent as Duma but they have clearly never met Anorath, the liaison between the mounting heavens and the court of the stars. His joyful countenance and flexible demeanor serve him in excellent stead in his role as emissary to the Court of the Stars. In fact, the queen has made him an honorary member of her inner circle and enjoys his company so much that she deals with the archons exclusively through him. His bond with the court has led some to question his commitment to the ideals of law. He however has not wavered in his commitment to ensure that the Court uphold their promises to Celestia and vice versa.

Azalon: the beast tamer
Azalon has but one title but it is one that many members of the Hedbomad wish they possessed for the slaying of a former Lord of hell is no small feat. For eons without number Azalon stood against the raging beast Geryon, the lord of the 5th. He foiled the more powerful but less controlled Geryon’s attempts to gain power in the service of his dread liege. Azalon’s cold efficiency served as a sharp contrast to Geryon’s unbridled fury but their dogged loyalty gave them an ironic point of commonality. In a climactic battle Geryon's forces were defeated in their attempt to create a new lair of Battor. Geryon fought free of the entrapping archons suffering heavy wounds in the process. Azalon pursued and managed to seemingly slay the wounded arch-devil, but Geryon’s body was recovered by Amon before the death could be confirmed. The recent rumors of a cult worshiping the apparently dead arch-devil have Azalon vigilantly watching the planes for the resurfacing of his old nemesis.

Leantes: the master mage, he who saw and lived, the mystery
Calling Leantes a member of the powers is technically incorrect. He appears to be a reclusive unique archon with no place in the hierarchy of heaven. However looks can be deceiving, even in Celestia. He is whispered to be the most powerful arcane caster of any archon, including Zaphkiel himself. Leantes is a favorite chess opponent of Zaphkeil despite the fact that no one but the Hedbomad or the gods themselves have seen Zaphkeil and lived. The reason for his power, survivability and inaction are unknown to all but a few.

[Iamyourking]

Good, but Geryon is neither a raging beast (Most of the time) nor dead. I believe he is currently waging guerilla warfare against Leviathan for control for Stygia.

Plus, CR 53 seems a little high for a Power.

[blackjack217]

Good, but Geryon is neither a raging beast (Most of the time) nor dead. I believe he is currently waging guerilla warfare against Leviathan for control for Stygia.

Plus, CR 53 seems a little high for a Power.

I thought Asamodeus destroyed him and used his powers to fuel his dear daughter (that is at the very least heavily implied) and he is currently a vestige. Also I said apparently slain. Also as he was not a Lord of the nine he would be much weaker.

[Iamyourking]

No, he was stripped of his Lord of the Nine status and reduced to an Archdevil (Which is his CR 53 incarnation) as part of a test for both him and Leviathan. Glasya is not, and probably never will be, a Lord of the Nine; being both a devoted servant to Dispater and dedicated to the concept of being the power behind the throne.

[blackjack217]

No, he was stripped of his Lord of the Nine status and reduced to an Archdevil (Which is his CR 53 incarnation) as part of a test for both him and Leviathan. Glasya is not, and probably never will be, a Lord of the Nine; being both a devoted servant to Dispater and dedicated to the concept of being the power behind the throne.

*sigh*
Fiendish Codex II page 61

Glasya, the newly appointed Archduchess of Malbolge

for good measure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_o...duchess_Glasya

[Iamyourking]

We are using Dicefreaks continuity; which is why all the Archons are actually competent.

"Cast out of Nessus with a flick of Asmodeus’
hand, Geryon returned to his former layer as an archdevil
even as Prince Leviathan was partially raised from
his imprisonment to once again rule Stygia." Page 287

"Like her mother before her, Glasya represents that
Power behind the Throne, the hidden agency that manipulates
matters in pursuit of some end that reveals itself
when it is too late to be stopped." Page 292

"In terms of Geryon himself, demoted
to arch-devil status at the end of the Dies Irae, Leviathan
continues to expend resources in order to attempt to find
him, although the protections of Asmodeus himself have
prevented the Prince of Stygia’s efforts from being successful."
Page 364

"There are no devils in Hell more dedicated to the establishment of this new order than the Lord of the Sixth – Lilith, the Countess of Malbolge." Page 369-370

[blackjack217]

We are using Dicefreaks continuity; which is why all the Archons are actually competent.

not so much.

[CENTER][COLOR="Navy"]
A Note on Canonicity
The goal is to stick as close to the existing D&D lore as much as possible, so familiarity with 2e Planescape and 3e planar material on the celestials (such as it is) is desirable. However, don't feel constrained by this or hesitant due to lack of canon familiarity; you can always stat things up, provide suggestions, and so forth and let the Planescape buffs tie things together. Also, we will be avoiding the issue of the creation story, Jazirian, Asmodeus, and such as much as possible so as to allow people with differing takes on that to work on this project together without arguments getting in the way. As I proposed in the other thread, the best route is to express the general opinion of the archons regarding the origin of the Wheel with something along these lines:

...and leave determination of truth or falsehood of a given myth to individual DMs who use the material.

Also since I never actually said he was dead we should just move on.

[Iamyourking]

If we aren't using Dicefreaks, then I'm going to have to throw out everything I've already done as it assumes that: 1. Eblis, Triel, and Belial were the leaders of the Fall; and 2. The Powers are on roughly the same level as the CR 35-40 Dukes of Hell, the Hebdomad are on the same level as the CR 60-67 Lords of the Nine, etc. Furthermore, what exactly is the point of having Dicefreaks writers in advisory roles if we are going by the Fiendish Codex and Book of Vile Darkness to determine what else is going on?

In any event, although it is true that you never said Geryon was dead; a CR of 53+ is simply too strong for a Power.

[blackjack217]

If we aren't using Dicefreaks, then I'm going to have to throw out everything I've already done as it assumes that: 1. Eblis, Triel, and Belial were the leaders of the Fall; and 2. The Powers are on roughly the same level as the CR 35-40 Dukes of Hell, the Hebdomad are on the same level as the CR 60-67 Lords of the Nine, etc. Furthermore, what exactly is the point of having Dicefreaks writers in advisory roles if we are going by the Fiendish Codex and Book of Vile Darkness to determine what else is going on?

In any event, although it is true that you never said Geryon was dead; a CR of 53+ is simply too strong for a Power.

1. We are assuming neither is cannon to avoid arguments like these, which is why I was careful to refute neither.
2. I already rewrote it to state that the fight occurred while Geryon was heavily injured as a concession to your concerns. Also your Azrael is "The strongest Archon in the Heavens" which makes him more of an offender in that regard than mine are.
3. I thought the powers served as both Dukes and Archdevils as we have no dedicated archdevil equivalent anyway.

[Iamyourking]

Very well, although when I said strongest I meant in terms of Strength score, which is in the 70s, rather than in terms of Challenge Rating or power. Note that I said he fought Eblis and lived, rather than defeated him.

As for Arch-Devil equivalents and for that matter what is and isn't canon, that's up to Tygre.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If we aren't using Dicefreaks, then I'm going to have to throw out everything I've already done as it assumes that: 1. Eblis, Triel, and Belial were the leaders of the Fall; and 2. The Powers are on roughly the same level as the CR 35-40 Dukes of Hell, the Hebdomad are on the same level as the CR 60-67 Lords of the Nine, etc. Furthermore, what exactly is the point of having Dicefreaks writers in advisory roles if we are going by the Fiendish Codex and Book of Vile Darkness to determine what else is going on?

In general, we're using Dicefreaks material where it doesn't explicitly conflict with D&D canon. Eblis, Triel, and Belial are fine in their Dicefreaks incarnations, as the Fall is vaguely outlined so it doesn't contradict anything. Geryon, however, has a definite fate, so he's a vestige now, not a Duke...though if you want to create a Duke functionally equivalent to Geryon in everything but name who assumed Geryon's power when he was reduced to a vestige, that's fine, since we don't know what happens to someone's power when they're vestige-ified and thus once again there's no conflict with canon.

[blackjack217]

naah I'll just swap Geryon for Moloch keeps the whole "defeated a former Lord of the Nine" thing though it will require a substantial personality change.
I actually liked Geryon can we keep him pleeeese?

[Iamyourking]

Wouldn't that mean that Abigor, Aguares, Haagenti and Malphas also don't exist? Or are they fine because Wizards and Dicefreaks were using the same source for names? Furthermore, if Geryon is a vestige, does that mean that Lillith either never existed in the first place or has otherwise been replaced with Glasya? Or Moloch, what about him?

I'll abide by whatever you lay down; I'm just looking for clarification here.

Actually, for that matter, a lot of the Dukes can't exist if we go strictly by Wizards.
Abigor is a general under Baalzebub
Malphas is a servant of Tiamat
Caim is an outcast living in exile on Avernus
Dagon is also an outcast in exile

Not to mention the entities that are important enough that no mention of them makes it reasonable to assume they don't exist; like Adremmalech, Astarte, Lixer, Meroem and Sammael. As far as the Fiendish Codex is concerned, the only Lord who hasn't always held his position is Bael.

Finally, for what it's worth, I really do think we should follow Dicefreaks continuity. The project was intended to replace A Light From On High, we have the support of the Dicefreaks writers, the name is deliberately evocative of the Gates of Hell, we are already use their statlines as a balance mark for ours, and frankly The Gates of Hell is much better written and much more interesting than the Fiendish Codex. I swore to follow whatever either Tygre or Dice say, so I'm in this regardless, but I do think that gives us a better place to stand on and would go a long way towards preventing continuity snarls.

[blackjack217]

Moloch is still alive as of FC II which is why I am using him if we decide Geryon is dead. (Personally I would have kept the fanatically loyal arch-devil and reduced the scheming upstart to a vestige myself...)

[Iamyourking]

Moloch is still alive as of FC II which is why I am using him if we decide Geryon is dead. (Personally I would have kept the fanatically loyal arch-devil and reduced the scheming upstart to a vestige myself...)

See, thats why I prefer Gates of Hell. Geryon was demoted to Arch-Devil and told he can get his throne back if he kills Leviathan. Leviathan was reinstated and told he'll be defrosted if he kills Geryon. Either way, Asmodeus wins as the resulting lord will either be a smarter Geryon or a more competent Leviathan.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Wouldn't that mean that Abigor, Aguares, Haagenti and Malphas also don't exist? Or are they fine because Wizards and Dicefreaks were using the same source for names? Furthermore, if Geryon is a vestige, does that mean that Lillith either never existed in the first place or has otherwise been replaced with Glasya? Or Moloch, what about him?

I'll abide by whatever you lay down; I'm just looking for clarification here.

Actually, for that matter, a lot of the Dukes can't exist if we go strictly by Wizards.
Abigor is a general under Baalzebub
Malphas is a servant of Tiamat
Caim is an outcast living in exile on Avernus
Dagon is also an outcast in exile

Those are all different cases. The Malphas in GoH is the Siege Master of Avernus; the Malphas in ToM was a traitorous elven druid. The Aguares in GoH is the Duke of Earth; the Agares in ToM was a general in the dao empire. While their origin stories may overlap somewhat, they're different characters, and might conceivably have similar names. By contrast, the Geryon in ToM is explicitly stated to have been the same Geryon that was a Duke in Hell, so the canon Duke Geryon of Baator is now a vestige while the two Malphases or Agareses/Aguareses can exist independently.

Finally, for what it's worth, I really do think we should follow Dicefreaks continuity. The project was intended to replace A Light From On High, we have the support of the Dicefreaks writers, the name is deliberately evocative of the Gates of Hell, we are already use their statlines as a balance mark for ours, and frankly The Gates of Hell is much better written and much more interesting than the Fiendish Codex. I swore to follow whatever either Tygre or Dice say, so I'm in this regardless, but I do think that gives us a better place to stand on and would go a long way towards preventing continuity snarls.

The project was intended to replace ALfOH, but the inspiration for the project was "We don't know much about the D&D Upper Planes; why don't we fix that?" While the Dicefreaks mechanics are definitely superior and their fluff is more fleshed-out, I do think sticking as closely to D&D fluff as possible is a priority. Feel free to use newly-created GoH characters in this respect, but for canon characters try to hew to PS lore.

This is why, as I mentioned in the OP, we're going with the "the lore is vague" explanation for some things. Just as some prefer the FC2 creation story and some prefer the GoH one, there may be some people who prefer the GoH takes on the Lords of the Nine or Dukes or whomever and some who prefer the FC2 versions. If you want to reference the GoH ones, simply (A) make it clear that you're referring to those characters somehow and (B) include some wiggle room or alternate theories for those who don't have/don't like GoH. That way, we keep the potential audience (and potential homebrewer pool) as wide as possible.

[blackjack217]

He abused Geryon until he finally lost trust in him so that he could absorb his essence and use it to power Galyssa's ascension to power, so he is not being stupid. Also I prefer FC II because in it the big A wins because he is such a magnificent bastard (technical term here) not because he is just that powerful. He has tons of people constantly scheming to overthrow him at least 2 of whom have a decent shot at it (lords of 8th and 7th) and he is still cool with it all. To each to his own.

[Eldan]

A Dagon in Dicefreaks might be a problem, though (haven't heard of him. I need to reread GoH some time). As far as I know, Wizards placed Dagon in the Abyss. Which is more fitting, I think.

[Pokonic]

I have not looked at the books in a long time, but I do think there was both a devil and a demon named Dagon, with the devil being named Dagon in direct offence to the demon. Or is that conflicting with GoH or with wizards canon?

[Iamyourking]

I believe the official Wizards stance is that there is a Demon Prince named Dagon and an exiled devil of unknown status named Dagon. The Dicefreaks stance is that Dagon is a Duke of Stygia, the self-styled Duke of the Deep, who is a patron to the Sahuagin with aspirations of becoming a god himself and a slowly growing army of Marquis Half-Fiends (That is the children of Devils of Duke or higher status. Which reminds me, we should have something like that for our Powers or Hebdomad, maybe High Castes).

[Eldan]

Yeah. Once again, the fiends have a lot more stuff: they have Half-fiends, Cambions, Tieflings and Marquis' in the official material, along with some special races like Tanarruk and probably more I don't remember. The good races only have Aasimar and Half-celestials. They need more. Anyone want to do a special half-archon?

[Iamyourking]

I could throw something together fairly quickly, but I say we delegate it to whoever is redoing the lesser Archons; or at least wait until a few of them are done first so we have a place to put it.

[The Tygre]

Very nice work on the Powers. But this little tangent has brought up an interesting point. We have our own vision of the Upper Planes, but what version of the Lower are we using? It would be appropriate to use DiceFreaks, yes, but more people are familiar with Wizards. I say we put it up to a vote, maybe even an open poll to stimulate the masses, eh?

[Eldan]

I'd say we generally go with what Wizards has produced for 3rd (even if I'm more familiar with Planescape), but use Planescape and Dicefreaks when it doesn't contradict it too much. And within reason, really: don't reference it so much people won't get a piece of text without reading three other books thoroughly.

[blackjack217]

1. Does the big A even have a WOTC cannon (cause there are like 8 different myths)?

2. A poll is okay by me, whatever the results.

3. You know how the MM has an in Eberon and an in Forgotten Realms section? Cause we could basically do the same thing for FCII and Dice-freaks when necessary. Or not.

4. Shouldn't the powers have their own thread? (whoever starts it has my permission to post my powers, just say who made them)

5. Shouldn't we update the first post of this thread at some point?

[Eldan]

Well. Big A not having a canon is kinda the point, really. Half of what's known is myths, the rest is propaganda written by him personally. Is he the serpent? A fallen angel? The primary source of all evil? Maybe.

[blackjack217]

Well. Big A not having a canon is kinda the point, really. Half of what's known is myths, the rest is propaganda written by him personally. Is he the serpent? A fallen angel? The primary source of all evil? Maybe.

What I meant was if we choose WOTC cannon which do we choose? Or do we not touch his bacround with a 11ft pole?