The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[Eldan]

I'd say we can talk about the Pact primeval, and probably need to, we can say that Zaphkiel remembers his origins, or maybe saw them on Chronias, but we don't need to say what they are.

[blackjack217]

That works for me

[The Tygre]

Right, so I've set up a poll thread for which Hell to use. Incidentally, anybody know how I put in a -real- poll? I didn't see a checkbox or anything, so I'm kind of in the dark about it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Right, so I've set up a poll thread for which Hell to use. Incidentally, anybody know how I put in a -real- poll? I didn't see a checkbox or anything, so I'm kind of in the dark about it.

You ASK A MOD.

This message brought to you with needless emphasis. Get yours today!

[The Tygre]

You ASK A MOD.

This message brought to you with needless emphasis. Get yours today!

Look man. I typed in 'Polls' in the FAQ. 'Polls' showed up. It said look for a little button. I didn't see nothin' 'bout no mods. Kapeesh?

And I'll put up Planescape as an option. Sorry for that Eldan.

[Lord_Gareth]

I did say "needless" emphasis, my feline compatriot :p

[Eldan]

Look man. I typed in 'Polls' in the FAQ. 'Polls' showed up. It said look for a little button. I didn't see nothin' 'bout no mods. Kapeesh?

And I'll put up Planescape as an option. Sorry for that Eldan.

Aye, 'tis a soddin' shame. And 'ere I was, thinkin' ye fer a blood...

[DMDaddy]

Luv this project. Just read TGoH and am excited about my current campaign just now starting. What is the ETA of this project? So I can check back.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Luv this project. Just read TGoH and am excited about my current campaign just now starting. What is the ETA of this project? So I can check back.

Your guess is as good as mine. We're working as fast as we can, but with schoolwork, homework, work-work, and other RL commitments, "as fast as we can" isn't all that fast.

[Iamyourking]

In about two weeks my fall quarter will end, at which point you can expect more out of me; although I'd like to finish the Authority before that point. Unfortunately, my ability to write flavor text for the Authority is feeling very stifled; it's been two weeks since I finished the stats (Minus two epic feats, anyone know if there's any books other than the ELH that have them) and I haven't gotten anything for description.

[blackjack217]

I got break starting on Wensday, expect the CR 20 throne archon to follow. Also we should probably play-test at least some of the stuff at some point.

[drakir_nosslin]

So, has this stalled in waiting for the upcoming christmas break, or did it die?

If it's still going, I'm interested in contributing, but I've never tried homebrewing before. Maybe I should stick to fluff...

[blackjack217]

it stalled for the voteing on the nature of hell. There's a link somewhere. Also at the level of some of these beings the game kind of breaks down. I mean what is a cr 80 monster anyway?

[hamishspence]

While a Great Prismatic Wyrm is "only" CR 66:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...rismaticDragon

there is the much more powerful Time Dragon in Dragon Magazine (the last print one) which exceeds CR 80.

Also, advanced versions of existing Epic monsters might top CR 80.

[Eldan]

Silly, that's what. The game breaks down much before that, really. Before epic, even, and in epic, the game doesn't make much sense anymore.

However, I see it as almost a thing to provide a certain internal consistency: a pit fiend is CR 20, a dragon can go to 25 or so, the lord of hell are far above that. There are ranks in between pit fiends and lords of hell, so there's also a CR difference, and it explains why they haven't been disposed by the first epic wizard or dragon to come along, and why a group of solars doesn't go kill Asmodeus.

[Iamyourking]

So, has this stalled in waiting for the upcoming christmas break, or did it die?

If it's still going, I'm interested in contributing, but I've never tried homebrewing before. Maybe I should stick to fluff...

I'm still working on it and in fact recently updated the Authority. I'm hoping to start on either a Martial Adept variant or the Virtue within a week.

[The Tygre]

Alright folks, we've got our Hell. For those not keeping up, the Hell we've selected for Gates of Heaven is DiceFreaks. Now, not everyone's familiar with the DiceFreaks' Hell. I need someone to do a quick write-up on it; y'know, an explanation on how it's different than WotC, quick run-through of the history and who the Nine are. No word limit, just hit the key-notes! Any volunteers?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Alright folks, we've got our Hell. For those not keeping up, the Hell we've selected for Gates of Heaven is DiceFreaks. Now, not everyone's familiar with the DiceFreaks' Hell. I need someone to do a quick write-up on it; y'know, an explanation on how it's different than WotC, quick run-through of the history and who the Nine are. No word limit, just hit the key-notes! Any volunteers?

I'd think that should fall to the people who voted for Dicefreaks. Only fair.

[Iamyourking]

Very well, I'll do it. Expect it by Saturday.

[Iamyourking]

Ok, it is good to see that the general populace has made the right decision and chosen Dicefreaks to be our version of Hell. Frankly, you really should have read it years ago as it is incredibly good, but a brief summary should suffice to give you an idea of what it is like. The Gates of Hell is divided into 9 segments, each covering a different subject; Beyond the Gates of Hell, Forbidden Magics, Prestige Classes of Peredition, Devils for Dicefreaks, The Dark Ministry, Powers of the Pit, The Dukes of Hell, The Arch-Devils, The Lords of the Nine.

Beyond the Gates of Hell is an introduction to Hell; providing the history that Dicefreaks used, a description of Cosmic Entities, rules for the effects of Devils in the Prime, and notes on how they interact with other outsiders.

Forbidden Magics contains a few new epic spells and seeds, most of which are also found in the statblocks for Peers, and a series of rituals for summoning Peers. The latter will likely be used, with modifications, for summoning Powers, the Hebdomad, and maybe High Castes. It also has some magic items used by Devils; including a few minor artifacts.

Prestige Classes of Peredition has specialized prestige classes for followers of each of the Lords of the Nine along with some generic classes, doing so in a much better fashion than the BoVD, along with feats for Lawful Evil people to use and epic progressions for the classes.

Devils for Dicefreaks provides the actual rules that Cosmic Entities use, expanded rules for advancing Devils, new lists of Spell-Like Abilities for most Devils, new stats for the Gelugon (Based on the fact that they are traditionally more powerful than Cornugons), templates for Fallen Angels and the children of unique devils and fallen angels, and full entries for Nupperibos, Spinagons, Squamagons, Kocrachons, Hiermagons, Narzugons, Malebranchen, Barregons, and Maleficarim along with advanced versions of Kytons, Erinyes, Bezekira, and Pit Fiends. Since Wizards later made their own stats for many of these in the Fiendish Codex, an errata was written that stated that the "official" versions are lesser versions of the Dicefreaks devils.

The Dark Ministry is an overview of Hell's war machine, describing the different branches and organization of the military and concluding with statlines for the Ministers. It most likely won't be relevant for this aside from maybe a basis of comparison if any brave individual wants to do something similar for us.

The Powers of the Pit is a list of unique devils of some importance who are not Dukes, Arch-Devils, and Lords of the Nine; namely Asmodeus' bodyguards the Ashmadia and their leader Aesmadeva, Ariyan, the governor of the capital of Stygia, an extraordinarily strong Bezekira named Berazakor, Beelzebub's chief spymaster Byzine, Drochmar of the Many Colors, the ambassador to Tiamat, Dulahad, the crazed Admiral of the Styx, Gathgorion, the Supreme Sergeant Major of the Denomination of Strategy, Gazra, the governor of Abyrimoch and lover of Fierna, Hepharion the Master Smith, Jezebel, the head of Glasya's Elite, Kelvzeron, the Warden of Cania, Malagon, the High Animator of Lixer, Natara, Captain of the Infernal Charge and lieutenant to Abigor and her black unicorn Equistrix, Quimath, the Amir of Kytons, Raithetarkon, the General of Cania, Ruthegax, Commander of the Dark Flight, Sidiar, Belial's chief torturer, Verrier, the greatest of Asmodeus' children who was manipulated into leading every unloyal Maleficareim in Hell in rebellion so that Asmodeus could wipe out all his unloyal servants in one fell swoop, Vhesage, the Governor of Malsheem, Yzed, the Guardian of Bael's Armory, and Zadiax, Gazra's bodyguard.

The Dukes of Hell are where it really gets interesting, as these are some of the movers and shakers of Hell and as far as most mortals are concerned they may as well be gods (I figure that as far as level 1 NPCs are concerned there isn't much of a difference between CR 35 and 60). These are unique entities, generally promoted from Pit Fiend or Fallen Solar or Planetar status, and there is two given for each layer; although the introduction says that there are actually 9. The Dukes given are Abigor the High General and Malphas the Siegemaster for Avernus, Titivilus the Herald of Dispater and Caim the Duke of Logic for Dis, Melchom the Duke of Profit and Scax the Duke of Riches for Minauros (The difference being that Melchom is more of an evil accountant while Scax is an evil investment trader), Rosier the Duchess of Witchcraft and Carniveau the Duke of Purity for Phlegthos, Caarcinolas the Duke of Intrigue and Dagon the Duke of the Deep for Stygia, Amdusius the Majordomo of Malebolge (And patron of unloved children) and Aguares the Duke of Earth for Malebolge, Surgat the Duke of Secrets ("The Snitch") and Rhalik the Duke of Intolerance ("The Bigot") for Maladomini, Leonar the Chancellor of Cania and Murmer the Duke of Philosophy for Cania, and Carreau the Duke of Apostasy and Martinet the Constable of Nessus for Nessus. Rosier, Carniveau, Surgat, Murmer, and Carreau are all fallen angels, if anyone wants to give them history with our creations.

The Arch-Devils consists of the next level of the infernal hierarchy, although many of them aren't technically part of Hell and instead were given their titles so that Asmodeus could use them in his plans. The ones that are part of the hierarchy tend to be the greatest servants of a particular Lord, such as Fierna for Belial or Lixer and Glasya for Asmodeus, or former Lords who have been allowed to keep some sort of authority, such as Adremmalech or Geryon. Again, although the descriptions says there are 27 arch-devils, not counting the Lords, only 12 are actively described. These are Adremalech, the former Lord of Phlegthos who was overthrown by Belial and secretly made Hell's Chancellor by Asmodeus; Eblis, once among the greatest of angels and co-leader with Beelzebub of the rebels in the Great Fall, now forced into exile in the Elemental Plane of Fire for refusing to serve Asmodeus but allowed the title because he still serves His interests (He is also notable for being the only being in existence that Asmodeus is mildly concerned about due to his strong sense of purpose and Mephistopheles level power); Fierna, whom I'm sure you all know, although Belial is still very much in charge in this iteration; Gargauth, the original Lord of the First who was overthrown by Astarte and put on a permanent diplomatic mission to Faerun; Geryon, the spawn of Aesmadeva and Tiamat who held Lordship of Stygia for a time before being removed in the Dies Irae and told that he can have the position back if he kills Leviathan (Leviathan was told he will be defrosted if he kills Geryon, so either way Asmodeus gets a more competent leader for Stygia); Lixer and Glasya, the Prince and Princess of Hell, who are backup plans to stop the Lords from scheming too openly and also serve to drive a wedge between the long-standing alliance between Dispater and Mephistopheles; Haagenti the Dark Dreamer, an ancient Maleficareim and long time outcast who was recently allowed back into Hell for Asmodeus' inscrutable reasons; Meroem the Darkwind, a high ranking subordinate of Dispater and master of time, wind, and information; Moloch, hero of the wars of Heaven turned patron to children turned follower of Beelzebub turned Duke of Maladomini turned Puppet Lord of Malebolge turned exile and hater of children and the innocent to the point where he demands children of great beauty be burned alive in stone idols if he is to be summoned; Sammael, the original Lord of Maladomini who was overthrown by Beelzebub and forced into exile in Hades as the Arch-Devil of Venom (Despite the name, he is not an angel); and Semyaza, the leader of the angels who fell long before the Great Fall for watching and lusting after mortals and now has a minor fief on Avernus and the charge of corrupting mortals.

I figure that it is safe to assume that you are already familiar with the Lords of the Nine, so I will only be listing how they differ from their official depictions. The Lord of Avernus is named Bael, not Bel, and he overthrew Astarte rather than Zariel. In addition, he is actually a Lord and has all the powers associated with title rather than siphoning them from his former mistress. Dispater is relatively unchanged, although he does have a rod that works like a supercharged Rod of Epic Leadership in addition to his staff, which now grants him Spell Stowaway for Gate, Heal, Miracle, Time Stop, and Wish, two non-epic contingencies that he can change at will, the ability to reflect any spell that fails to breach his Spell Resistance, and a far stronger ability to rust away metallic objects. Mammon is a plump hellspawn with a bow rather than a man-snake hybrid with a spear and absolutely despises combat, although his personality is otherwise mostly unchanged. As mentioned, Belial is very much in charge of Phlegthos while Glasya and Fierna despise each other and are extremely unlikely to ever do anything even remotely resembling cooperation. The Lord of Stygia is Leviathan, who is a colossal fiend-whale, rather than Levistus; although their histories are essentially the same. The primary difference here is that Leviathan was told that he would be defrosted if he killed Geryon while Levistus has no hope of being freed. The mistress of Malebolge is Lillith rather than Glasya nor the Hag Countess, and her portfolio is entirely different; being focused on the corruption of nature to fit the whims of Hell rather than serving as the power behind the throne. Beelzebub is a giant man with the head of a fly rather than a slug but is otherwise unchanged. Mephistopheles has little to do with Hellfire, it being a creation of Leonar, and commands the absolute loyalty of the Gelugons rather than them being driven off; but his hatred of Beelzebub and desire to overthrow Asmodeus are the same (Although deep down inside he is preventing himself from actually launching a serious attempt to overthrow Asmodeus because he subconsciously knows that even if he wins he will never find meaning to his life). Asmodeus' orgins are different, being the Circle of Three rather than the Pact Primeval, and he is far more powerful in proportion to the other Lords than in any other depiction. Otherwise, the Ruby Rod possess far more powers than the official description and he overthrew Lucifer as part of a plan to get the Heavens to lower their guard (Since him and Aesmadeva are the only beings in existence who know his true origins and that the two were the same being) rather than always being the Lord of Nessus.

Again, you all should read the Gates of Hell since I can't give it justice in this brief description; but this should suffice to give everyone an idea of where we stand. You have my word that the finished Authority will be up on Wednesday.

Is this too short? I can certainly make it longer if needed.

[Eldan]

That will need some serious rethinking of half hte stuff I've been thinking about... there's some pretty interesting differences to the fluff I was used to.

I mean, fallen Aasimon can turn into Baatezu? The first's a proxy, the second a petitioner, for power's sake!

And, well, I thought we weren't going into Angels much. More focusing on the Archons.

Oh, and another thing: if there is no pact primeval, what ensures the cooperation of the lawful factions of the ring? How are the celestial weapon traders conducting their business, as an example?

[Dragon Star]

Can I get a link to the gates of hell download?

[Iamyourking]

No they can't, if Angels or Archons fall their Angel or Archon subtype is replaced with the Fallen subtype, which they keep no matter how strong they get and never receive the Devil subtype. For instance, compare Bael's, Beelzebub's and Mephistopheles' statlines:

The Warlord of Avernus
Fighter 30
Huge Outsider (Devil, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)

The Lord of the Flies
Evangelist 5/Rogue 10/Shadowbane Stalker 20
Huge Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Fallen, Lawful)

Arch-Duke of Cania
Wizard 10/Loremaster 20/Archmage 5
Large Outsider (Abomination, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)

Bael rose up from the ranks so he is a Devil, Beelzebub fell so he is a Fallen, and Mephistopheles, along with Dispater, Mammon, Leviathan, and Lillith, rose from the blood of the Overlord and is an Abomination.

As for the Angels vs. Archons; remember that Selah said they clumped all the good outsiders together under Angels? We can easily change them all to Archons without really effecting anything. Couldn't tell you about the cooperation part, but I'd assume that Devils aren't going to attack Archons without orders; as they do have diplomatic ties.

Can I get a link to the gates of hell download?

Here

[Eldan]

Still, a few questions:

There is no pact primeval, then. How does that change the situation between the powers of law and hell? What about Celestia, Arcadia, Archeron? What about Primus?

Aasimon are divine creations, not petitioners. How do they keep their power after falling? Do they find new divine sponsors?

[Iamyourking]

Primus is an avatar of a Elder One in the same vein as Asmodeus, the Good Outsiders have essentially the same origins as Devils in that they were created by the embodiment of Good, and the only mention of other planes of law is that Hell has diplomatic ties with them. I'm sorry if I can't provide satisfactory answers, but a lot of this is stuff that is never said or only vaguely. I'll answer what I can, but you should probably direct your questions to Selah.

This is what is says about the Fallen:

Spoiler

Show

Angels, despite being the embodiment of holiness and virtue in the cosmos, are not infallible. As each strives to promote the cause of righteousness on behalf of the Sarim or various goodly deities, each is regularly confronted by temptations. Everything from greed and lust,
to envy and pride threatens the integrity of the angel. Although the vast majority never yields to temptation, there are those who, for whatever reason, succumb to some fatal flaw and fall from grace. These are the fallen
angels. The greatest number of fallen angels are known to have appeared during the earliest hours of the Prime Material. They were cast out of the Realms Above by the Sarim for their pride, wickedness, and abuse of mortal
creatures. However, the greatest fallen angels were cast down after mortals populated countless worlds. Known as The Great Fall, this tribulation saw the likes of Belial, Eblis, and Beelzebul cast out of the Lights from on High
and into the Depths Below. Although some of the better known fallen angels became terrible powers of Evil, most disappeared into obscurity, nursing their hatred against their former master and the mortals that infest the
Prime even as they wallow in self-pity and despair, too proud to sincerely ask for forgiveness.

[Eldan]

Still...

The fluff on Aasimon must have been changed significantly. After all, if they fell, whatever god made them would just cut their power, I'd assume.

[Iamyourking]

I have never heard of anything like that in 3.x; so I would suspect that it hasn't been the case, officially or otherwise, in years. Again, all Lawful Outsiders have essentially the same origin in that they were created by unimaginably powerful entities of pure Law so there shouldn't be any difference between them in that regard. Just out of curiosity, what did you think happened to the Fallen?

[Eldan]

No idea.

I've never heard of fallen Angels, really. The never had much fluff, as opposed to the Archons themselves, and I always assumed that whatever fallen celestials became the devils were archons to begin with.

Them being Aasimon will require some thought. I don't really know how to handle this.

[Iamyourking]

Let me rephrase that, Fallen Archons; since I was using Angels the same way you were using Aasimon (Although I admit they aren't quite the same). Admittedly I don't really see what your problem is since it has been rather clear from the beginning that the Archons and Angels who rule Celestia have very little to do with the Gods who happen to live there and certainly aren't dependant on them.

Or is this a differing view in the origins of Angels and Archons where Angels are explicitly the servants of Gods while Archons aren't?

[Eldan]

According to Planescape fluff:


Archons are created from the souls of mortals who die and go on to Celestia. They first go to Lunia, where they either join one of the peaceful communities on the lowest layer, if they are the sort who are content with a quiet and lawful life, or, if they want to improve themselves, climb the mountain and become lanterns, then advance from there.

Aasimon are the servants of the gods, and the gods of all good alingments, not just lawful good. This includes the Astral, Movanic and Movadic deva, and the Light Aasimon, Planetars and solars. Solars are specifically described as "They have the power of gods, but decide to serve, instead of rule."


It seems Dicefreaks is working on different assumptions, so I'll have to rework quite a few ideas I had about the higher layers. And read Gates of Hell, it seems.