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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Nice, very nice. I'd say you did a pretty thorough job. Though I'd work on the formatting; more of a list style instead of paragraphs. And Eldan, would you or anybody else mind if I incorporated your questions into a FAQ kind of thing at the end, as a supplement to King's? I have a feeling that a lot of your questions are the kind of things that other Planescape and WotC readers will be asking.
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Of course not, go right ahead.

    Anyway, we need to come to a conclusion on what kind of fluff basics we are working on here. The creation and status of angels is the kind of thing that could turn out to be pretty significant in the background. If they are just another kind of ascended petitioner, then there needs to be a way to separate them from Archons.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I say make them servants of the good gods. As long as their battle cry is not "Good for the good gods!!" Also is there an equivalent to the serpents of law for chaos?


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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Okay, having read IayK's synopsis, coupled with my extreme lack of a desire to read the Dicefreaks thing at the moment, I have a few notes before I get back to the work I promised:

    Nothing really seems too changed, though I'll change all instances of Bel to Bael in my Barachiel write-up.

    I like most of the changes for the most part, especially the changes to Mammon and Levistus. I'd like to make it clear though, even though this probably won't be an issue, that I'm not changing my Disciple PrCs in light of this.

    I'm really not going to change anything about how I do my write-ups, seeing as little of this impacts upon the Hebdomad save Zaphkiel, the others being successors to their positions according to the paltry info in BoED.

    Once I start writing up Zaphkiel, I'll need to look into Asmodeus' origins though, as the two were present at the Pact in WotC, and I'm sure Zaphkiel was around when Asmodeus did whatever he did in Dicefreaks.
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    That's rather dependant on what you are referring to; as unless Zaphkiel is also the avatar of an Eldar One in the same vein as Asmodeus or Primus then he wasn't present at the emergence of Asmodeus, and even then he probably wouldn't be as by the time Primus and Asmodeus appeared the layers had already been fairly stratified and I doubt Zaphkiel would particularly want to be hanging around a place filled with thousands of epic level Hellspawn who want his head.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    That's rather dependant on what you are referring to; as unless Zaphkiel is also the avatar of an Eldar One in the same vein as Asmodeus or Primus then he wasn't present at the emergence of Asmodeus, and even then he probably wouldn't be as by the time Primus and Asmodeus appeared the layers had already been fairly stratified and I doubt Zaphkiel would particularly want to be hanging around a place filled with thousands of epic level Hellspawn who want his head.
    Well unless Dicefreaks has said anything pertaining to Zaphkiel, I must fall back on the official info. Zaphkiel is one of the first ascended celestials (that is to say he was mortal, and when he died he became an outsider). He was present at the signing of the Pact. This is no longer the case, but unless Asmodeus came to power before the rise of mortal life, Zaphkiel still needs to be accounted for in this narrative.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    All right, let's dig into this. Our focus for the moment is where Angels (as in the Aasimon) come from. Now, let's kick this off by stating the obvious facts;

    - Archons come from Celestia
    - Baatezu come from Baator

    ...

    That's all I really got. Chivalry, since we're using your Angels, where do you think they come from?

    Theory: Petitioners in Celestia work their way up Celestia to rejoin the Seventh Layer. There, under the guidance of Zaphkiel, they reach their last stage of enlightenment by entering a sort of nirvana with The Supreme Virtue, literally fusing with her, and the whole of Celestia itself. They are then reborn as lantern archons, where they begin the process of promotion to (whatever the Archon equivalent of Pit Fiend is) anew.

    Theory: Zaphkiel (or another Hebdomad) may see fit to skip the nirvana with The Supreme Virtue for some individuals, and directly promote them to Archon status.

    Theory: As Yugoloths are descended from Baernaloths, so Aasimon are descended from some greater primordial race of good. Like Baernaloths, these primordials origins are unknown (re: GM fiat).
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    It would probably be a good idea to make the angels work like Baernoloths: not made from souls, but the actual, original good of the planes and therefore predating mortal life. Archons are created from souls, angels aren't.
    Though that still leaves the question where they come from, and how new ones are made. As Baernoloths are focused in Hades, I'd assume the Angels would come from Elysium, which also has it's mysteries.
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    All right, let's dig into this. Our focus for the moment is where Angels (as in the Aasimon) come from. Now, let's kick this off by stating the obvious facts;

    - Archons come from Celestia
    - Baatezu come from Baator

    ...

    That's all I really got. Chivalry, since we're using your Angels, where do you think they come from?

    Theory: Petitioners in Celestia work their way up Celestia to rejoin the Seventh Layer. There, under the guidance of Zaphkiel, they reach their last stage of enlightenment by entering a sort of nirvana with The Supreme Virtue, literally fusing with her, and the whole of Celestia itself. They are then reborn as lantern archons, where they begin the process of promotion to (whatever the Archon equivalent of Pit Fiend is) anew.

    Theory: Zaphkiel (or another Hebdomad) may see fit to skip the nirvana with The Supreme Virtue for some individuals, and directly promote them to Archon status.

    Theory: As Yugoloths are descended from Baernaloths, so Aasimon are descended from some greater primordial race of good. Like Baernaloths, these primordials origins are unknown (re: GM fiat).
    We're using my angels? Awesome With my paragons at least, I worked under the assumption that Moriphractiel and Seraphitus were formed from raw plane stuff, while the other angels had various origins, at least one of them mortal.

    Now whether this mortal origin is normal or extraordinary is malleable.

    Eldan's suggestion that angels come from souls seems feasible, though the opposite could also hold, that archons, guardinals and eladrin are native to their planes and result from goodly energy spawning them, while angels are reformed mortal souls.
    Last edited by Sir_Chivalry; 2010-12-04 at 08:55 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    All right, let's dig into this. Our focus for the moment is where Angels (as in the Aasimon) come from. Now, let's kick this off by stating the obvious facts;

    - Archons come from Celestia
    - Baatezu come from Baator

    ...

    That's all I really got. Chivalry, since we're using your Angels, where do you think they come from?

    Theory: Petitioners in Celestia work their way up Celestia to rejoin the Seventh Layer. There, under the guidance of Zaphkiel, they reach their last stage of enlightenment by entering a sort of nirvana with The Supreme Virtue, literally fusing with her, and the whole of Celestia itself. They are then reborn as lantern archons, where they begin the process of promotion to throne archonanew.

    Theory: Zaphkiel (or another Hebdomad) may see fit to skip the nirvana with The Supreme Virtue for some individuals, and directly promote them to Archon status.

    Theory: As Yugoloths are descended from Baernaloths, so Aasimon are descended from some greater primordial race of good. Like Baernaloths, these primordials origins are unknown (re: GM fiat).
    Fixed it for you. To me it looks like the chaotic denizens of the plains are the new butt monkeys of the dicefreaks verse.


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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Oh? How's that? Because I can't stand it when some paragraph-worshipping lawheads they think they are better than the truly awesome side of the planes.

    And Eladrin aren't made from souls. They are a sexually breeding race. Chaotic petioners get to keep their form, for the most part. Another point in Chaos' favour

    Similarly, Angels very clearly don't come from souls, that's Archons. Canonically, they come from the gods, here, they would probably be the progenitors of good, or descendant from them .
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-12-04 at 09:03 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Because the sides of chaos seem to have no uber deities helping them. I don't recall a mention of a serpent of chaos or whatever. They are pawns in the great game.


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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Phh. They don't need it. I mean, you could potentially build up the Titans in that role, but really, Chaos was around way before law. The wind dukes of Aaqa and their little war barely scratched chaos' surface.
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  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    It is of course right and proper for proper for the chaotic outsiders, who at best well meaning fools and at worst instigators of meaningless violence, to be firmly ignored in the favor of the order and stability that gives existence meaning. If it wern't for the Circle of Three nothing would exist but senseless anarchy, now driven back to Limbo and the Far Realm. Why else would The Gates of Hell succeed when Horrors of the Abyss floundered if it wern't for the fact that Law, in all its facets, is far superior to Chaos or Neutrality?
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  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Because Chaos won't take over everything. Then there's no challenge left. And unlike boring Law, Chaos wants something do to.

    Also, I note a distinct lack of defeat of chaos in the Blood War.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-12-04 at 09:44 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    It is of course right and proper for proper for the chaotic outsiders, who at best well meaning fools and at worst instigators of meaningless violence . . .
    Fixed that for you
    Last edited by Sir_Chivalry; 2010-12-04 at 09:50 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Fine, fine you pack of anarchists . Time to get back to work, it being my duty and all.

    Edit: And finished, two down five to go. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-12-05 at 01:55 AM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry View Post
    Well unless Dicefreaks has said anything pertaining to Zaphkiel, I must fall back on the official info. Zaphkiel is one of the first ascended celestials (that is to say he was mortal, and when he died he became an outsider). He was present at the signing of the Pact. This is no longer the case, but unless Asmodeus came to power before the rise of mortal life, Zaphkiel still needs to be accounted for in this narrative.
    My apologies for not noticing you. Asmodeus (Or to be more precise his first incarnation Lucifer) came to power long before mortals, or even common outsiders, came into existence. That is of course assuming that mortals were created by Gods, which seems to be the case. (See page 6 of Beyond the Gates of Hell, which is listed after the Rise of the Maleficareim in the timeline "Across Creation, the gods came into being. Some were created by overpowers of singular worlds, while others emerged from Chaos. In any event, the gods turned away from the Realities Beyond and concentrated on the Mortal Coils wherein mortals were slowly appearing. The Overlord foresees the seeds for his future and begins plotting to corrupt both gods and mortals; much of his success is carried out by Lilith, the Lord of the Sixth. The Blood War, although not particularly important to the Lords of the Nine, begins.")
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-12-06 at 12:04 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I wonder how the Baernoloth and ancient Baatorians play into this...
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    No mention of either, so they probably don't exist.
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  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    My apologies for not noticing you. Asmodeus (Or to be more precise his first incarnation Lucifer) came to power long before mortals, or even common outsiders, came into existence. That is of course assuming that mortals were created by Gods, which seems to be the case. (See page 6 of Beyond the Gates of Hell, which is listed after the Rise of the Maleficareim in the timeline "Across Creation, the gods came into being. Some were created by overpowers of singular worlds, while others emerged from Chaos. In any event, the gods turned away from the Realities Beyond and concentrated on the Mortal Coils wherein mortals were slowly appearing. The Overlord foresees the seeds for his future and begins plotting to corrupt both gods and mortals; much of his success is carried out by Lilith, the Lord of the Sixth. The Blood War, although not particularly important to the Lords of the Nine, begins.")
    So this means my contributions have nothing to do with Dicefreaks in any big way.

    Great, less issues for me.
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  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Is that supposed to be a positive or negative statement? I honestly can't tell.
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  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Is that supposed to be a positive or negative statement? I honestly can't tell.
    It's a statement, I'm not hiding anything. Since Zaphkiel has nothing to do with the Gates of Hell, none of the others in the Hebdomad need have anything to do with it save what is desired superfluously.
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  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I see. In any event, it's not entirely true that they have nothing to do with Hell; as Zaphkiel at least would remember the Great Fall and maybe even the Watchers, which gives us some space to tie them in with Beelzebub and Belial. Not to mention the fact that I would be suprised if all the members of the Hebdomad and a fair percentage of the Powers didn't have some prior history with at least one Lord.

    Alternately, Zaphkiel could be more than just a very powerful Archon; as is the case with Asmodeus and Primus.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-12-06 at 11:36 AM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    No mention of either, so they probably don't exist.
    The "Ancient Baatorians" could be done as born from the blood of the Serpent when it first appeared in Baator-

    when the Fall took place and Triel/Baalzebul, Eblis, and Belial, along with a huge host of celestials (secretly manipulated by Lucifer) arrived, they drove most of the minor "ancient baatorians" into hiding. Big-name ones, survived though- Leviathan, Lilith, Mephistopheles, Dispater, Mammon.

    The "ancient baatorians" of WOTC Nine Hells, would be represented as Abominations/Elder Evils in the Dicefreaks version. "Ordinary" weakest abominations for most- but a few manifest in the world as Elder Evils.

    You could even keep the story from Elder Evils, of one claiming to be their ruler (Zargon), being cast out by Lucifer/Asmodeus, but always regenerating from his horn.


    As for Baernoloths- you could do what 4E did, and make them fairly ordinary- only claiming to be a progenitor Evil race.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-12-06 at 11:50 AM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Possible, although Bael came to power quite a long time after the Fall. The problem with that is that Lucifer's first act was to drastically cull the population of Hellspawn to manageable levels; leaving a dozen at most. It is true that the Fallen drove at least three of them into hiding though-Astaroth, Adremmalek, and Sammael.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Possible, although Bael came to power quite a long time after the Fall. The problem with that is that Lucifer's first act was to drastically cull the population of Hellspawn to manageable levels; leaving a dozen at most. It is true that the Fallen drove at least three of them into hiding though-Astaroth, Adremmalek, and Sammael.
    This fits quite well with the Zargon the Returner story, and of there being a few ones buried in the ice of Caina. If Zargon was the first and greatest "hellspawn" whom even Asmodeus/Lucifer could not permanently slay, that goes very well with Elder Evils.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Possible, although Bael came to power quite a long time after the Fall. The problem with that is that Lucifer's first act was to drastically cull the population of Hellspawn to manageable levels; leaving a dozen at most. It is true that the Fallen drove at least three of them into hiding though-Astaroth, Adremmalek, and Sammael.
    Well, in WotC the Baatorians aren't too numerous either, so this doesn't really change much.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    This fits quite well with the Zargon the Returner story, and of there being a few ones buried in the ice of Caina. If Zargon was the first and greatest "hellspawn" whom even Asmodeus/Lucifer could not permanently slay, that goes very well with Elder Evils.
    Verrier is already established as being the first and greatest; and while Asmodeus could have killed him he was spared and used to gather all the disloyal Hellspawn into one place for easy extermination, as I pointed out in my summary.

    Although, isn't the concept behind the Ancient Baatorians in the first place that they were the original inhabitants of Hell before the Lords of the Nine came to power and they were driven out? Using the Maleficareim for them is sort of undermined by the fact that all the original Lords, and a fair chunk of the Arch-Devils, were Maleficareim.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    No mention of either, so they probably don't exist.


    That sucks, if it's true, and would be a major dealbreaker to me. They are pretty much the coolest fiends.


    I'd assume that the ancient Baatorians were there before the arrival of Lucifer and his host, and were driven into hiding, much like their original story.

    The Baernoloth, well, I'd assume that they would be at least partially behind the Fall. There has to be a pretty good reason for an Archon of such power to be evil, and corruption by the prime evil is a good one.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-12-06 at 01:32 PM.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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