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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Very impressive, I think I'll make a few of those after I finish the Virtue; although I would put Sword Archons in with the Protectors rather than the rulers. Perhaps the other duty of the Foxhounds could be counter-insurrgency and the Harbingers could handle mortal relations?
    1) Feel free to make some if you want, though I'd make sure we hammer everything out at the higher level before we start working on individual archons.

    2) Hmm. Sword might make a good Warden, since there's already plans for a Shield, and that would open the top slot for a more thematic one. Good idea. Any ideas for a replacement?

    3) I like the harbinger ideas, though "counter-insurgency" sounds a bit too much like an archon policing other archons. Perhaps something like "mortal aid" or the like. I'll think about it.

    Also, I've brought this up a few times and never gotten a response. Can we change the name of the Throne Archon so I can use Throne for the last of my High Castes? My theory here is that I like the concept of a council of Thrones acting as the legislative body, and changing the Throne Archon to the Crown Archon would be more thematic with your Sceptre variant.
    Hmm. If we're moving Sword around, then a Throne/Crown/Scepter trio would work very nicely, and moving Throne around would muck that up a bit. If you can think of a good replacement for Throne that could work, but coming up with another name for the High Caste might work better--after all, there are other sorts of angels to use for that, and thrones are almost as iconic as solars, balors, and pit fiends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    For the Trumpet:
    There should be a variety of messenger archon, which would fit this very well. The sign of the post, at least here, is a horn, so that fits.
    Then, I was thinking of the horns of Jericho. Trumpets as sonic weapons.
    The Herald was going to be the messenger one, unless you can think of a duty for the Herald that would be different than a messenger. For the blasting horns one...something like "announcer" but more medieval-sounding could work.

    The Warden:
    The classical guardian angel? A variety that is mostly unseen (veiled? disguised? Invisible?) and is sent to protect important mortals. It's said that it's the main modus operandi for Eladrin, but can see this work here.
    Then, an Archon tasked with guarding evil artefacts, so that no one may use them.
    Another one to man the citadels, walls and gates of celestia.
    I was thinking the Watcher would be the guardian-angel type, and the Shield would be the Celestia defender type. The evil-watching one is good, though I can't think of a good name at the moment.

    Life: where's that one from and what was the idea?
    Out of thin air; like I mentioned, a variation on the "Way, Truth, and Life" quote gave me the idea. Their theme is that while Truth is all about separating good from evil and Word is all about bringing divine power to bear, Life is all about life's journey--reincarnation, summoning fallen heroes/petitioners/etc., and so on. When it comes to enlightenment, Word persuades, Truth judges, and Life gives second chances.

    Blade: these should be Celestias greatest warriors, of course. Different combat styles for varieties, then, but I have difficulties coming up with two that are general enough and not already covered by others. An armed and an unarmed archon?
    Now that Sword is going under Warden, we have 3 or 4 styles to work with instead of just 2. Any ideas for a good 3-way or 4-way division?

    Also, I noticed there's no real ranged combat anywhere among these. Just a thought. Then, healers are necessary, these probably fit to Life. Earlier, a seer-themed archon for Earathol was mentioned, that's another thought, and an unarmed monk archon. Also, an ascetic archon, perhaps?
    Obviously I haven't gotten to the point of exact descriptions and tactics, but there's plenty of room for ranged stuff. The Sentinels all have eye rays (modeled on the Owl's petrification rays), the Lanterns have light rays, the Words are caster types, and the Hounds (as stalker/hunter types) would necessarily have some ranged combat capabilities.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    YES! Yes yes yes yes! Now that's the kind of **** (pardon the expression) I'm talkin' about!
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    2) Hmm. Sword might make a good Warden, since there's already plans for a Shield, and that would open the top slot for a more thematic one. Good idea. Any ideas for a replacement?
    Perhaps Orb? The traditional royal regalia was always the staff, the crown, and the orb.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    3) I like the harbinger ideas, though "counter-insurgency" sounds a bit too much like an archon policing other archons. Perhaps something like "mortal aid" or the like. I'll think about it.
    I meant more around the lines of counteracting diabolic espionage and the like, seeing as how there is an entire denomination of the Dark Ministry devoted to espionage and it would be rather stupid for the archons to not have at least something devoted to countering that.


    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Hmm. If we're moving Sword around, then a Throne/Crown/Scepter trio would work very nicely, and moving Throne around would muck that up a bit. If you can think of a good replacement for Throne that could work, but coming up with another name for the High Caste might work better--after all, there are other sorts of angels to use for that, and thrones are almost as iconic as solars, balors, and pit fiends.
    As I suggested, you could use Orb. I'll admit that this is because I had this vision of a circle of 18 thrones (3 for each layer except Chronias; which is frankly a different topic altogether) in the greatest city of Jovar where the greatest of the High Castes made Celestia's laws and even had some ideas for rules on tying the Archons to their thrones. I'll change it if necessary like I did with the Powers, I'm just not totally comfortable with having an entity whose concept and powers are so tied to their thrones not being called Thrones.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-12-19 at 03:47 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Perhaps Orb? The traditional royal regalia was always the staff, the crown, and the orb.
    Perhaps Crown and Orb for the top two, then the third layer is Scepter, divided into Rod and Staff ("for His rod and His staff, they comfort me" and so on)? I like it, but I'm still sort of attached to Thrones for their legacy value. Let's put it to a vote and see what people like better.

    I meant more around the lines of counteracting diabolic espionage and the like, seeing as how there is an entire denomination of the Dark Ministry devoted to espionage and it would be rather stupid for the archons to not have at least something devoted to countering that.
    Oh, completely understood, it's just that "counter-insurgency" doesn't have the right ring to it. Maybe just general "intelligence" would work, as that's espionage, counter-espionage, and "sniffing out" intruders...though how one would represent the Celestial FBI in one archon without going overboard on abilities is a tricky question.

    As I suggested, you could use Orb. I'll admit that this is because I had this vision of a circle of 18 thrones (3 for each layer except Chronias; which is frankly a different topic altogether) in the greatest city of Jovar where the greatest of the High Castes made Celestia's laws and even had some ideas for rules on tying the Archons to their thrones. I'll change it if necessary like I did with the Powers, I'm just not totally comfortable with having an entity whose concept and powers are so tied to their thrones not being called Thrones.
    Maybe something else ruler-sounding, like Regents (which makes sense, if they're standing in for the Hebdomad or something)?
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2010-12-19 at 04:34 AM.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I wouldn't say that they are standing in for the Hebdomad per say; it was more the idea that there should be some sort of seperation of authority with the Hebdomad as the executive branch and the Thrones as the legislative branch. Otherwise, Celestia's government would probably be described as a benevolent absolute oligarchy where the oligarchs reign eternally; essentially differentiated from Baator only in that the overlords are benevolent.
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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    It's a lawful system. As a Lawful good plane, I'd imagine Celestia to have basically a benevolent dictatorship.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    It's a lawful system. As a Lawful good plane, I'd imagine Celestia to have basically a benevolent dictatorship.
    Yeah, separation of powers is for us mere mortals who can't be trusted not to misuse our power.


    Any suggestions on the missing archon varieties?
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
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    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    two words: fallen angels or archons but you get the idea


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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    What about them? There's already a lot of them in Gates of Hell.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Yeah, separation of powers is for us mere mortals who can't be trusted not to misuse our power.
    This is what fallen angels are about.


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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I have to agree that you all have a point, and that it works because the Hebdomad actually are both incorruptible and far wiser and more intelligent than mortals. Still, I like the idea and I think I'll keep the Thrones as a legislative body; but it will be as a compliment to the Hebdomad rather than a check. After all, there's only 7 of them and Zaphkiel doesn't strike me as being a very hands on leader; they could use some support.

    In any event, while we are on the subject of Swords, I have compiled a list of homebrew martial disciplines we have received permission to do.
    Dspeyer: Ranged disciplines, nonlethal combat
    DaTedinator: Psionics
    Nero24200: Duel-wielding, shield fighting
    Frog Dragon: Spears
    The-Mage-King: Heroic anime-style fighting?
    DracoDei: Cartoon character fighting?
    Krimm Blackleaf: Epic feats
    Presumably Pair’O Dice Lost: Aquatic combat, fiends
    Further private messages have been sent to receive permission for Golden Saint, White Heron, and Army of One. If anyone wants to use a discipline outside of this list it is probably best to do so via private message, as the Age of Warriors team does not display the cohesion and discipline of ours and it appears that only a sparse handful of them are actually paying attention to the thread.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-12-21 at 06:44 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Just stopping by to wish you guys and gals all the best with this project. You seem to have a lot of energy here and I hope you can transform it into something combustible and get this product completed!

    Oh, and Happy Holidays!

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Good work, King. And Dice, you're chart's a masterpiece. This recent lil' bit does get me thinking; how do the archons run themselves? Are they like the courts in Hell and Arborea, or do they have a different way?

    That was a cue, by the by.
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  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I aim to please.

    I was hoping to get the whole hierarchy sorted out before I started the restatting and refluffing, but if I don't get any good ideas for filling in the gaps in the ranks by the end of this weekend, I'll just start working on them and let things fall into place later.

    That was a cue, by the by.

    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    What I had in mind was that each of the Hebdomad rule a layer with Zaphkiel overall in charge. In a parallel to Asmodeus, he mostly lets them do as they please; although this is due to trust rather than a desire to force them to prove themselves. The Thrones, and their chairman Melchizedek, handle most of the day to day affairs of the plane as a whole; only involving Zaphkiel when truly necessary. The Hebdomad in turn delegate affairs to the Dominions, who administer Celestia's cities, and the Powers, who have specialized jobs akin to Dukes of Hell and Arch-Devils. Anything less important than that is more up in the air, although Dice is making a heroic effort to cover it.

    As a final note, I must note how honored I am to have drawn the attention of Serge with my work. The Gates of Hell is one of my favorite works of planeslore, and having the support of its architect means a lot to me.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    This is reposted from my thread, but it is something that I would like to get some input on.

    Also, am I giving them [The High Castes] too high of stats and abilities? I looked in Gates of Hell and determined that the first Duke that can match a Virtue in primary casting stat is Leonar, who has 13 CR on them and is Mephistopholes' chief aid, and that the Authority can beat a CR 29 Nessian Pit Fiend pretty regularly, said Pit Fiend's main chance of victory being a poison that the Authority only fails on a 5. Further comparisons showed that, even though a Principality is only 2 CR higher than a Solar, it has 7 more Intelligence, 13 more Wisdom, and 1 more Charisma. I'm thinking I'll drop the maximum HP per die (Which would take the Principality from 493 to 392, the Authority from 756 to 630, and the Virtue from 570 to 437) and cut the casting stats down five or ten points. Any further suggestions?

    In an incidental addition, ErrantX has refused us access to his disciplines. If anyone has by chance made anything using White Heron or Army of One you should probably remove it now.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Now hold the phone, there. Why's ErrantX refusing us access to his disciplines? It's not like any of this is for profit or nothin' like that.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Perhaps the contents of the PM will prove enlightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    This was directed at you, among others, in the Age of Warriors thread but as no response was received I opted to send it here. I am a representative of the current Gates of Heaven project to put Archons on the same level that Dicefreaks did to Devils and have come to offer a proposition to you as a creator of Martial Adept material. You may find further information about us in the two threads contained within my signature. We are seeking permission to use your material, in particular the Silver Crane discipline, in the interest of making our warrior Archons all the more interesting. By giving permission, you accept that some of the backstory of your works may be changed to better fit the project; although you will be credited either way.
    Do we have a deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    This was purposeful; I asked the AoW people to remove my works when I began to disagree with them and where they were going. I've already had a couple of my works jacked and altered without permission, so while I appreciate your asking I am going to have to decline. Silver Crane can be altered to your tastes in your campaigns, but reposting or printing it altered is not something I'm okay with. Sorry, but I like my discipline to remain as is.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    That sounds like a misunderstanding, then. If I remember this correctly, we asked to use his maneuvers mostly by giving a few celestials a few of them to use per encounter. He seems to have taken it as rewriting the style in some way. Perhaps ask him again and explain the distinction?
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Already working on it. Personally wouldn't mind having him on the team, too, but we're not really focusing on stuff for Players like classes or new styles. Travelers were nice, though.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Just to give you a thumbs up on this project, even tough nothing seems to be finished yet! People nowadays seem to always seem to be focusing on the evil dudes, angels need some love as well!

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Since there haven't been any more suggestions on the missing archons, I suppose I'll just get to work on those we have. Question before I start in on them: Do we want to keep their existing levels of power, or do we want to rearrange them HD-wise so it goes lantern, trumpet, etc. up through the ranks?
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Whoops! Hold on! I'm having one of those mind-blink things on the Life Archon. What if the three various Life Archons were the good ol' cycle of life, death, and rebirth, or birth, death, and rebirth as you will. Birth/Life Archons would be some kind of healers, or maybe planar midwives. Death Archons (maybe something more pleasant for the name than 'Death) ease the passing of others and comfort those left behind. Rebirth Archons are wandering resurrectionists, or maybe guides of reincarnation and karma.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I like the basic idea, but why Birth/Rebirth? I must say, I don't quite see the difference here.

    How about: Life, Death, Transition?

    One to protect the living, and life force.
    One to protect the dead, from being raised as undead, being called back from the afterlife against their will, and so on.
    And one, a bit like Death of the Endless, who is present at birth and death and makes sure everything goes smooth.


    Though I'm actually not sure why these are archons... they sound more like neutral forces to me than lawful good ones.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Whoops! Hold on! I'm having one of those mind-blink things on the Life Archon. What if the three various Life Archons were the good ol' cycle of life, death, and rebirth, or birth, death, and rebirth as you will. Birth/Life Archons would be some kind of healers, or maybe planar midwives. Death Archons (maybe something more pleasant for the name than 'Death) ease the passing of others and comfort those left behind. Rebirth Archons are wandering resurrectionists, or maybe guides of reincarnation and karma.
    I like it. Repose seems to be the "good" version of death as far as domains and such, so perhaps the three varieties would be Rising, Repose, and Resurgence?

    On the other hand, there is the Angel of Death in mythology, so perhaps life, death, and reincarnation would be themed around gifts/blessings, curses/punishments, and redemption, respectively?
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
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    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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  26. - Top - End - #476
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    Iamyourking's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Megawizard View Post
    Just to give you a thumbs up on this project, even tough nothing seems to be finished yet! People nowadays seem to always seem to be focusing on the evil dudes, angels need some love as well!
    Although your support is appreciated; 1. It's Archons, not Angels, as Eldan would undoubtedly go in great length informing you, and 2. You seem to be implying that I have not actually done anything in regards to my High Castes, despite the fact that each of them was the product of a great deal of work on my part. Is that so?
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  27. - Top - End - #477
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    What we need is an index post edited in, for the stuff that's already done. It wouldn't be much right now, but I think it would be good as a link hub for us and to let people know we've got some material ready. 'Cause those high castes didn't pop up overnight, that's for sure.
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    My Characters
    According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
    "And in the layer of the Deep Ones, we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever." - H.P. Lovecraft

  28. - Top - End - #478
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking
    Although your support is appreciated; 1. It's Archons, not Angels, as Eldan would undoubtedly go in great length informing you, and 2. You seem to be implying that I have not actually done anything in regards to my High Castes, despite the fact that each of them was the product of a great deal of work on my part. Is that so?
    Sorry for the misunderstanding, it's just my lazyness puting all those creatures under the same name. I noticed you're providing material for a lot of diferent good factions here.

  29. - Top - End - #479
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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    What we need is an index post edited in, for the stuff that's already done. It wouldn't be much right now, but I think it would be good as a link hub for us and to let people know we've got some material ready. 'Cause those high castes didn't pop up overnight, that's for sure.
    I should probably have done that already. I'm heading out of town for New Year's tomorrow and might not have internet access there, but I'll see if I can comb the thread and link completed material when I get back.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
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  30. - Top - End - #480
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    This is reposted from my thread, but it is something that I would like to get some input on.

    Also, am I giving them [The High Castes] too high of stats and abilities? I looked in Gates of Hell and determined that the first Duke that can match a Virtue in primary casting stat is Leonar, who has 13 CR on them and is Mephistopholes' chief aid, and that the Authority can beat a CR 29 Nessian Pit Fiend pretty regularly, said Pit Fiend's main chance of victory being a poison that the Authority only fails on a 5. Further comparisons showed that, even though a Principality is only 2 CR higher than a Solar, it has 7 more Intelligence, 13 more Wisdom, and 1 more Charisma. I'm thinking I'll drop the maximum HP per die (Which would take the Principality from 493 to 392, the Authority from 756 to 630, and the Virtue from 570 to 437) and cut the casting stats down five or ten points. Any further suggestions?

    In an incidental addition, ErrantX has refused us access to his disciplines. If anyone has by chance made anything using White Heron or Army of One you should probably remove it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Now hold the phone, there. Why's ErrantX refusing us access to his disciplines? It's not like any of this is for profit or nothin' like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That sounds like a misunderstanding, then. If I remember this correctly, we asked to use his maneuvers mostly by giving a few celestials a few of them to use per encounter. He seems to have taken it as rewriting the style in some way. Perhaps ask him again and explain the distinction?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Already working on it. Personally wouldn't mind having him on the team, too, but we're not really focusing on stuff for Players like classes or new styles. Travelers were nice, though.


    @ The Tygre: I PM'd you.

    As far as joining your team here, I've very busy with many of my own projects, but I'll make it a point to chime in and keep up here when I can. If I can contribute, I will do so.

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