The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[The Tygre]

King, do you need access to Silver Crane on all the High Castes, or just the Authorities?

[Iamyourking]

I only need it for the Authorities at the moment, but I'd use it for lesser Archons if I got assigned them.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Happy New Years, everyone. Hope everyone's holidays--and work for this project--went well.

I never got an answer to my earlier question: Do we want to keep the archons' relative HD and power levels as they are now, or do we want to reorganize them such that archons higher on the Mountain are more powerful than those below?

[Iamyourking]

I say keep them as they are, we can use class levels for more exceptional individuals.

Also, I have to say I am shocked at how hard it is to make a high level martial initiator; far more so than a caster.

[The Tygre]

Speaking of which, we've got the Green Light from Errant X to use Silver Crane with the Authority! Go nuts! Just one condition, and this applies to anything we might be using Silver Crane for. Credit and link must be given to SorcererStudios.com, notably the Libram of Battle, and further credit to ErrantX specifically. Have at it.

And on that note, let's start talking variant archons here. Is there anything we want to focus on first?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And on that note, let's start talking variant archons here. Is there anything we want to focus on first?

Figuring out the gaps in the hierarchy would be good. Other than that, if we're only tweaking the base stats rather than rewriting everything, the variant abilities shouldn't be too hard to come up with.

[Iamyourking]

Making martial initiators hurts my head. Would it be too powerful for Authorities to know every maneuver from each of their disciplines but be limited by the standard number of maneuvers prepared and perhaps a harsh means of changing readied actions? Any martial common Archons are definitely going to be built the same way as the monsters in the Tome of Battle.
In any event, to stop this post from being a waste of space, I come bearing soldiers!

Spoiler

Show

Legion Archon (Dice, you can change this to whatever you want)
Large Outsider (Archon, Extraplanar, Good, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (89 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft in full plate, base 40 ft
Armor Class: 29 (+1 Dex, +10 natural, +9 +1 light fortification fullplate,-1 size), touch 9, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20
Attack: Large +1 heavy poleaxe +17 melee (3d6+11/x3) or claw +15 (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Large +1 heavy poleaxe +17/+12 melee (3d6+11/x3) or 2 claws +15 (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft with poleaxe)
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Aura of menace, damage reduction 10/evil, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and petrification, formation fighting, low-light vision, magic circle against evil, outsider traits, spell resistance 24, teleport, tongues
Saves: Fort +11 (+15 against poison), Ref +9, Will +7
Abilities Str 24, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Balance +8, Concentration +16, Heal +12, Intimidate +12, Jump +12, Knowledge (Tactics and strategy) +14, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Listen +12, Search +14, Spot +12, Survival +14, Swim +6
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Poleaxe)
Environment: Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia
Organization: Solitary or Squad (six plus one 1st level sergeant). (Any larger will be dealt with elsewhere)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard plus large +1 heavy poleaxe
Alignment: Always Lawful Good
Advancement: 10-20 HD (Large), 21-26 HD (Huge) or by class level (Crusader or fighter)
Level Adjustment: +7

This bulky creature stands ten feet tall and is almost that broad through the shoulders; a bulk that is only enhanced by its gleaming armor of gold and silver. A squat helmet covers its face, with light reflecting off its black eyes from the narrow eye slits. A poleaxe the length of a pike is slung over its shoulder, which it carries without difficulty in its clawed paws; the only part of its body uncovered by armor. [Assuming it takes its helmet off] Its face is reminiscent of a white bear, albeit with a short snout and a hint of humanity about its features. It stands staring straight ahead until, at some unseen command, it marches off and takes its place in a phalanx of identical warriors that stretches for many hundreds of feet.

Legion Archons are close relatives of the Warden Archons that guard Celestia’s many gates and strongholds. Like their cousins, they are fearless and doughty fighters that will fight to the end rather than cede one inch of ground; but their shorter claws and superior stamina allows them to take up arms in the defense of Celestia. These ursine warriors comprise the bulk of Celestia’s army; and when the Hounds are done skirmishing and the Swords are finished with their shock charges it is the ranks of perfectly disciplined Legionnaires that finish the fight with their mighty poleaxes. These weapons can slice through two barbazu or cripple a hezrou with a single blow, and their wielders are trained to wield them in perfect harmony with their fellow soldiers. Unfortunately, their claws are too short to be particularly effective weapons and their full face helmets prevent them from using their teeth; although they will use their claws when the fighting gets too close to wield their poleaxes and will bite with just as much ferocity as their cousins should they be forced to.

Combat:

Legion Archons are born to fight and they do so with great skill and discipline, if not necessarily much fervor. When encountered alone, they try to keep their distance so they can use their poleaxes; confident in their ability to rapidly take down their foes. If overwhelmed they teleport away to fetch reinforcements. In the more likely occasion that they are encountered in squad numbers, they will immediately form a tight formation and use massed scorching rays to remove magical artillery. If charged, the front rank will brace their poleaxes and use Hold The Line to eliminate the attackers while the second rank prepares to take the place of anyone that falls and any subsequent ranks fire over their shoulders.

Aura of Menace (Su): As the regular Archon ability, DC 13
Formation Fighting (Ex): Legion Archons are quite literally created to fight in dense formations of glittering armor and swinging poleaxes and are naturally very good at it. Each Archon can freely attack over the head of the one in front of them, allowing up to three ranks to fight simultaneously. Additionally, if any Archon goes down, the one behind him is allowed a free 10 foot step to take his place. Finally, their training to cover each other ensures that they receive a +2 bonus to AC and attack for every other Legion Archon in contact with them (+6 for the front and back ranks, +8 for every other rank)
Spell-like Abilities: At will-aid, continual flame, detect evil, scorching ray, shield other 3/day-shield of the archons, true strike. Caster Level 11.

Incidentally, did you know that one Pit Fiend Brigadier (Which is the lowest rank they can hold) commands 4,901,070 Barbazu, 66,339 Hamatulas, 7,371 Cornugons, and 82 Gelugons? I found that out looking for a comparison to see how big my units should be.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Making martial initiators hurts my head. Would it be too powerful for Authorities to know every maneuver from each of their disciplines but be limited by the standard number of maneuvers prepared and perhaps a harsh means of changing readied actions?

It shouldn't; there's an ability for deities that basically says "You know every wizard spell ever without needing a spellbook, even ones you make up," so by comparison an ability that says "This guy knows every printed maneuver for disciplines X and Y" is nothing.

[Iamyourking]

There's a bit of a difference between a CR 27 Authority and a CR 60+ deity, but alright. Any thoughts on the Legion Archon I made for you?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

There's a bit of a difference between a CR 27 Authority and a CR 60+ deity, but alright.

There's also a huge difference between 25-32 maneuvers and 1500+ spells. I mean, the ToB valkyrie gets a bunch of maneuvers for free, and it's possible for a swordsage to almost pick up every maneuver from a discipline, so getting every maneuver in 1-2 disciplines is not a major step up, as opposed to the difference between a wizard having a few hundred spells through Collegiate Wizard + free spells + spellpool + whatever versus having over a thousand spells.

Any thoughts on the Legion Archon I made for you?

It looks quite good, and fills in one of the two empty slots in the Warden lineup. Assuming Formation Fighting takes the place of Unerring Assay, you should probably give it Rend and Scent as well, and could give it another minor defensive ability to replace Uncanny Dodge.

[Iamyourking]

Here you go then:

Spoiler

Show

Legion Archon (Dice, you can change this to whatever you want)
Large Outsider (Archon, Extraplanar, Good, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (89 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft in full plate, base 40 ft
Armor Class: 29 (+1 Dex, +10 natural, +9 +1 light fortification fullplate,-1 size), touch 9, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20
Attack: Large +1 heavy poleaxe +17 melee (3d6+11/x3) or claw +15 (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Large +1 heavy poleaxe +17/+12 melee (3d6+11/x3) or 2 claws +15 (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft with poleaxe)
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Aura of menace, damage reduction 10/evil, darkvision 60 ft., endure, immunity to electricity and petrification, formation fighting, low-light vision, magic circle against evil, outsider traits, spell resistance 24, teleport, tongues
Saves: Fort +11 (+15 against poison), Ref +9, Will +7
Abilities Str 24, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Balance +8, Concentration +16, Heal +12, Intimidate +12, Jump +12, Knowledge (Tactics and strategy) +14, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Listen +12, Search +14, Spot +12, Survival +14, Swim +6
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Poleaxe)
Environment: Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia
Organization: Solitary or Squad (six plus one 1st level sergeant). (Any larger will be dealt with elsewhere)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard plus large +1 heavy poleaxe
Alignment: Always Lawful Good
Advancement: 10-20 HD (Large), 21-26 HD (Huge) or by class level (Crusader or fighter)
Level Adjustment: +7

This bulky creature stands ten feet tall and is almost that broad through the shoulders; a bulk that is only enhanced by its gleaming armor of gold and silver. A squat helmet covers its face, with light reflecting off its black eyes from the narrow eye slits. A poleaxe the length of a pike is slung over its shoulder, which it carries without difficulty in its clawed paws; the only part of its body uncovered by armor. [Assuming it takes its helmet off] Its face is reminiscent of a white bear, albeit with a short snout and a hint of humanity about its features. It stands staring straight ahead until, at some unseen command, it marches off and takes its place in a phalanx of identical warriors that stretches for many hundreds of feet.

Legion Archons are close relatives of the Warden Archons that guard Celestia’s many gates and strongholds. Like their cousins, they are fearless and doughty fighters that will fight to the end rather than cede one inch of ground; but their shorter claws and superior stamina allows them to take up arms in the defense of Celestia. These ursine warriors comprise the bulk of Celestia’s army; and when the Hounds are done skirmishing and the Swords are finished with their shock charges it is the ranks of perfectly disciplined Legionnaires that finish the fight with their mighty poleaxes. These weapons can slice through two barbazu or cripple a hezrou with a single blow, and their wielders are trained to wield them in perfect harmony with their fellow soldiers. Unfortunately, their claws are too short to be particularly effective weapons and their full face helmets prevent them from using their teeth; although they will use their claws when the fighting gets too close to wield their poleaxes and will bite with just as much ferocity as their cousins should they be forced to.

Combat:

Legion Archons are born to fight and they do so with great skill and discipline, if not necessarily much fervor. When encountered alone, they try to keep their distance so they can use their poleaxes; confident in their ability to rapidly take down their foes. If overwhelmed they teleport away to fetch reinforcements. In the more likely occasion that they are encountered in squad numbers, they will immediately form a tight formation and use massed scorching rays to remove magical artillery. If charged, the front rank will brace their poleaxes and use Hold The Line to eliminate the attackers while the second rank prepares to take the place of anyone that falls and any subsequent ranks fire over their shoulders.

Aura of Menace (Su): As the regular Archon ability, DC 13
Endure (Ex): Through a combination of toughness and discipline, Legion Archons are able to overcome the effects of evocations fired at their formations. Against anything that would normally allow a reflex save, they are allowed to instead take a Fortitude save.
Formation Fighting (Ex): Legion Archons are quite literally created to fight in dense formations of glittering armor and swinging poleaxes and are naturally very good at it. Each Archon can freely attack over the head of the one in front of them, allowing up to three ranks to fight simultaneously. Additionally, if any Archon goes down, the one behind him is allowed a free 10 foot step to take his place. Finally, their training to cover each other ensures that they receive a +2 bonus to AC and attack for every other Legion Archon in contact with them (+6 for the front and back ranks, +8 for every other rank)
Rend (Ex): If a Legion Archon hits a single target with both its claws it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh, dealing 2d6+10 damage.
Scent (Ex): Although it rarely comes up, Legion Archons have the same sense of smell as their cousins and can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
Spell-like Abilities: At will-aid, continual flame, detect evil, scorching ray, shield other 3/day-shield of the archons, true strike. Caster Level 11.

[The Tygre]

Very nice work with the Legion Archon.Where do we want to fit it in our little scale there? Also, I've been trying to come up with two more castes to fill in the gaps between Word and Sentinel Archons. Anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking some kind of magic caste for one, with the subtypes being different kinds of magic like truenaming and psionics.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Very nice work with the Legion Archon.Where do we want to fit it in our little scale there? Also, I've been trying to come up with two more castes to fill in the gaps between Word and Sentinel Archons. Anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking some kind of magic caste for one, with the subtypes being different kinds of magic like truenaming and psionics.

Legion would probably be a variation on Warden, since it's already related to the Warden thematically and the other Warden variants are the Guardian, Watcher, Shield, and Sword.

The Word archon already covers truenaming (as well as word-/speech-themed arcane and divine spells), but psionics isn't currently represented anywhere. Something that uses psionics, incarnum, and binding (using the less sinister vestiges, of course) themed around drawing on the togetherness/unity/etc. of the souls in Celestia would be a good addition. No idea what the name would be, though.

[Eldan]

There was talk of a monk-like ascetic archon. Psionics would fit well in there.

[Iamyourking]

I'm fine with Dice's idea of grouping it with the Warden.

Otherwise, the martial Authority is done; although I doubt I'll have enough room in my post for the last two.

As a side note; Tygre, how did you get ErrantX on board? He seemed pretty vehement that he didn't want his material used.

[The Tygre]

As a side note; Tygre, how did you get ErrantX on board? He seemed pretty vehement that he didn't want his material used.

I have power over people, though they may appear complex;
To me, they fall like playing cards, and I control the deck!

By which I mean I badgered him about it and explained that we were willing to negotiate on everything, and of course give him full credit for his contributions. But I couldn't think up a way to make that rhyme.

And feel free to post your updated High Casters wherever; we'll link back to em' when we get an index up.

[The Tygre]

So I had another one of those head-bulb things a night or two ago. I wondered what new caste should fill our celestial hierarchy and was looking at themes. I noticed that there are some 'royal' archons. Namely, we've got throne and scepter archons. So why not continue the theme? I propose the 'crown' archon caste. It would continue the monarchy theme that's present in some castes. Their exact abilities and qualities are still somewhat an enigma, though. I'm not sure I want these to be our magic caste just yet. Maybe some kind of authoritative powers. I don't know, what do you all think?

[Iamyourking]

It's a possibility, but I've already got Crown for the last of the High Castes. Of course, if you give me back Throne that would be ideal.

[The Tygre]

Well, boop me. What other royal stuff can we use? I want to fill in the missing castes before putting in variants. Branches before the fruit, y'know? And I know no one's going to like this suggestion because it's cliched and used as all dark and unholy Hell, but... *sighs* What about elemental archons?

[Iamyourking]

It seemed to me like Dice's table had enough basic types, but I suggested Crown, Orb, and Sceptre as variants of a ruling Archon. If more types are needed, perhaps you could look at the Devils and see if a good mirror to one of them pops into your head; that's how I thought of the Legion Archon (Which I think should be called Phalanx Archon now. Thoughts?).

As for elemental Archons, not unless absolutely necessary. However, that doesn't mean that there can't be some elemental influences here and there. For instance, both Belial and his former master Adremmalek have a distinct fire theme and claim it as part of their portfolio as does Leviathan with ice and Meroem with wind. All of them frequently work with elementals of their type along with inhabitants of those elemental planes; and there isn't really any reason that some of the Powers and Hebdomad can't act the same way.

[Eldan]

And there are certainly more than enough classical angels with elemental themes. And we can't let Hell take all the credit for the elements.

[Iamyourking]

However, there aren't any Fire Devils or Earth Devils or whatever, and none of the Peers who have elements on their portfolios are dominated by them; Belial's primary theme is pain, not fire, Leviathan's is gluttony, not ice, and Meroem's is time, not wind.

As for Celestials, I figure Barachiel is a shoe-in for wind and my Azazel is an equally good match for earth. However, this doesn't really solve our problem of a lack of basic types; as the only ones with any ties to the elements are unique entities.

[Eldan]

Ice Devils, though. And those Styx Devils whose name I don't remember. They could be counted as water devils.

And Seraphim, for the angels.

[Iamyourking]

Good point about Gelugons and Barregons. Still, they don't have any actual association with the Paraelemental Plane of Ice/Elemental Plane of Water so I doubt they really count. As for Seraphim, didn't we have a rather large argument a few months ago about how both them and Kerubim are expressly forbidden? Plus there's the fact that they would have to be at least as strong, if not stronger than, the Hebdomad; which doesn't exactly bring us any closer to solving the problem.

[Eldan]

I was merely pointing out that castes of element-associated outsiders already exist. The Eladrin, with the Firre (fire) and the Ghaele (air), are the most obvious about it, probably. So, I see no reason not to have, say, a Lightning Hound, or a Flame Warden.

[Iamyourking]

That is true. However, my argument was essentially that blatantly elemental Archons would be lame; a point that Tygre seems to agree with me on. I was simply confused by your mention of Seraphim, as they are (1) banned by forums rules, (2) have never had any elemental connection to my knowledge, and (3) are CR 168 in the only known place they have been statted.

[Eldan]

Seraphim is hebrew for "the burning ones". They are very explicitly tied to fire.

Anyway, I agree that we shouldn't make them too much elemental themed, but if a Balor can have a burning whip, surely we can have some archons with elemental weaponry, or elemental bodies?

Edit: also, CR 168? Really? What's that supposed to represent? The epic rules are so borked that somewhere around 25, the system really loses all meaning. Is there any way to say "this is what the typical level 168 party is supposed to look like", so you can power your monster accordingly?

[hamishspence]

"Seraph" has been used in D&D- as a title in Faerun for a deity's more important servants.

In Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, a mortal soul is promoted to Kelemvor's "Seraph of Death".

And Cyric makes a living mortal, Malik, his "Seraph of Lies" (ironically, Malik can't lie).

[The Tygre]

Edit: also, CR 168? Really? What's that supposed to represent? The epic rules are so borked that somewhere around 25, the system really loses all meaning. Is there any way to say "this is what the typical level 168 party is supposed to look like", so you can power your monster accordingly?

On that note, I thought we were relegating seraphim and kerubim to the realm of angels, or perhaps the name of orders and spheres?

[Iamyourking]

We had this discussion early on in design, with me arguing for them. However, we decided that we wern't going to use them at all.

As for the CR 168 Seraph, perhaps you could ask that guy with the killer penguin? I'm sure he could provide a statblock for one of his hirelings.