The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[The Tygre]

In any case, let's get back to filling out the caste system again. Now, I was thinking of orb archons, and wouldn't they be filled by Lantern archons, what with them being rather... roundish? If not, then what would the orb archons be? The orb is meant as a representation of the bearer's dominion over the planet. Would orb archons be geographical defenders, representations of natural laws? Hmm... Looking at it, maybe we just found where to put our elemental archons...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In any case, let's get back to filling out the caste system again. Now, I was thinking of orb archons, and wouldn't they be filled by Lantern archons, what with them being rather... roundish? If not, then what would the orb archons be? The orb is meant as a representation of the bearer's dominion over the planet. Would orb archons be geographical defenders, representations of natural laws? Hmm... Looking at it, maybe we just found where to put our elemental archons...

The lantern archons already have their own slot, with the seven varieties based on the virtues. The orb archons would work nicely as geographical entities; they could have four subsets, globe archons for earth and plants, sphere archons (as in the crystal spheres) for air and cold, and so on.

[Iamyourking]

I think that having a subset of Lanterns that work under the Orbs would be interesting though.

[The Tygre]

I think that having a subset of Lanterns that work under the Orbs would be interesting though.

Oh, definitely. Something I've always wanted to do with lantern archons was find a way to make them like the cherubim in Lucifer. Kind of Heaven's neutralization force (swoop in, cast mass sleep, etc.), and incredible empaths.

[Eldan]

Well, they already look a bit like it. And the cherubim in lucifer also seemed a bit stupid, which seems to fit with the int 6.

[Iamyourking]

Ok, can I make a suggestion here? While these ideas are appreciated, it really would be nice if someone other than me was doing mechanical things. Blackjack's Celestial Warlock is fine, but that was months ago and I haven't seen anything mechanical since (Or Blackjack for that matter, he last posted here almost a month ago but his post history shows he's still active). Remember, we've got a good dozen Powers and at least twenty variants in concept stage; if everyone would just pick either one Power or two or three variants and make them it would take a lot of stress off me while I get these last two High Castes out.

[Eldan]

I've never homebrewed a monster in my life, and I would have no idea how to balance it. I've done a handful of PrCs, which usually get either ignored or voted down in the contests and some fluff things, but never any monsters.

[The Tygre]

No time like the present, eh? King's right; we need some hard mechanics to show off. So troops, I'm sending you out in the field. Three weeks from now, I want to see at least one new archon from each of you. Nothing big, just a variant from one of the castes we've got on the tree. For balance sake, it might be best to start a new thread for them so you can attract critique and constructive advice. We're all counting on you; good luck!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've been meaning to get around to the lesser archons, eventually. I've technically taken responsibility for them, but with all the games I'm running and RL stuff that's come up I guess I've been putting them off until I can get them done (the ones we've decided on, anyway) in one fell swoop. With a hard deadline to work with, I should be able to get some serious work on them done once the first week of classes this semester is done. I'd very much appreciate the help, of course; anyone can grab the archons they want and I'll fill in the gaps.

[Iamyourking]

I've never homebrewed a monster in my life, and I would have no idea how to balance it. I've done a handful of PrCs, which usually get either ignored or voted down in the contests and some fluff things, but never any monsters.

It really isn't very hard, especially if you are making low CR monsters and even less so when you are making a variant. Just take a pre-existing archon, tweak some of the stats, give it different feats and signature abilities, and write up some flavor text. I would suggest you just take a look at the big table Dice has made of possible variants and see if anything catches your eye.

As for balance, give it a Challenge Rating and compare it to other creatures of the Challenge Rating. If it's stronger increase its Challenge Rating and try again, if its weaker do the same thing in reverse. Since ideally these variants should be as powerful as the original you shouldn't have any difficulty.

One more thing. A lot of these variants would probably be identical to their base archon and would only require different fluff, most of the remainder would only require different skills and feats.

[The Tygre]

Would anybody mind if I thought out loud for a bit? I don't want this thread falling too far back into the Homebrew abyss.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Go right ahead. I, for one, won't have anything GoH-related to post for a while yet.

[Iamyourking]

Do as you will; I'll have the Dominion finished by the end of the weekend.

[Iamyourking]

Apologies, but due to an emergency I'm not feeling very creative and probably won't be able to meet the deadline for the Dominion. I'll still get it done, just not by the end of the weekend.

[The Tygre]

Take your time. Like I said, everyone's got a couple of weeks left. As the dragons say, 'A great answer tomorrow is better than a good answer today'.

[The Tygre]

All right, on to that position saving musing. Now, I like the concept of the Orb Archons taking on various names, powers, and roles from planetary activity and movement. Dice got a good start going, and I think the two he suggested were a nice foundation.

Globe Archons - Earth and plants
Sphere Archons - Air and cold
Star Archons - Fire and positive energy
Ring (?) Archons - Water and travel

Needless to say, these are just ground concepts, and can be expanded on into the physical and metaphysical as far as we wish. Now if only I could think of what the Hell they actually do in Heaven...

[Eldan]

Celestial spheres? How about music, then? We'd have another good candidate for bardic archons.

[Iamyourking]

As for what they actually do in Celestia, we could look at Baator for some ideas.

In Hell they:
Process Lawful Evil souls; determining whether they go to Baator, Gehenna, Acheron, or the private domain of a god
Fight the Blood War
Conduct research on new forms of magic and magical devices
Maintain diplomatic relationships with other important players
Harvest souls for the endless number of things that need them
Pursue private interests (Everyone except Asmodeus jockying for the chance to overthrow their superior, Asmodeus collecting the encounted numbers of souls needed to heal himself)

I figure that Celestia would do all but the second one of those, with Lawful Good replacing Lawful Evil for the first and less trickery and legalism for the fifth. What private interests would be composed of is dependant on the Powers and their jobs.

[Eldan]

From reading the source material, Celestia has a very, very strong focus on asceticism and spiritual growth. To ascend to a higher layer, one has to find a path, which represents a spiritual virtue, and perfect it by ascending the path. And that's not just for petitioners, but even for casual visitors (who, therefore, almost exclusively stay in Lunia. Celestia doesn't need fortresses, really, you just can't get past the first layer.)

So I'd imagine large amounts of people discussing spiritual questions and meditating.

[The Tygre]

Aaand just a heads up, there is one week until your assignments are due. I hope you're all doing swimmingly.

[Eldan]

Honestly? No.

I have not the slightest idea what I'm doing, I don't know how to balance it, and I have no ideas for unique abilities.

So, I'm not coming up with anything useful.

[Iamyourking]

Would it help if I explained the thought process that went into the Phalanx Archon?

The basic idea came from a discussion a while back about the rank and file of the armies, since Swords are too strong and Hounds are too skirmish and hunt oriented I got an idea of using Wardens.
As such, I had that idea in my head when I decided I should make a common Archon and used the Warden as a basis of comparison.
I decided it should be physically weaker but more skilled than the Warden while maintaining the same general power level, so I gave it 1 more HD and 4 more Dexterity while decreasing its Strength by 3.
For equipment and attacks, I was looking at the picture in the BoED and decided that those claws were too long to hold a weapon; so I dropped them a damage die and decided that they were about half as long. The armor stayed the same to provide some mechanical ties with the Warden, and when it came to the weapon I thought about how they would fight.
My thought process there was basically, "These guys are big and strong, but not very fast and are likely to be outnumbered. Combine that with the defensive personality of Warden archons, the heavy armor they're going to be wearing, and the discipline innate in Lawfulness and you get something that will hold its ground in tight blocks to the very end. Reach weapons would be best for that; but longspears are too weak, ranseurs and guisarmes are too gimmicky, and glaives are already used by Barbazu and I don't want to rip them off. Perhaps I can find something in one of my books (Later) the Heavy Poleaxe in Complete Warrior seems perfect, so I'll go with that. Plus, they don't have to spend a feat on it since Outsiders get automatic proficiency with everything in their statblock"
For special attacks, I dropped Rend due to their shorter claws and replaced some of their tracking oriented Spell-Like Abilities with scorching ray so that the back ranks could fight things that were out of their reach.
For special qualities, I dropped Uncanny Dodge and replaced it with a variant of Mettle to defend them against the evocations that make conventional warfare so difficult; while Formation Fighting was inspired by the tactical feat from Complete Warrior that grants AC and attack bonii for nearby allies and the combat system of Warhammer Fantasy for the rank fighting.
As for the feats, it was just a matter of replacing them with the basic loadout a defensive fighter would take, with Weapon Focus for flavor. Power Attack for obvious reasons, Combat Reflexes for more Attacks of Opportunity, and Hold the Line to put them to use.

Hopefully that helped.

[Dragonexx]

It does. Thanks.

EDIT: Although I have very little experience with homebrewing monsters myself sadly. Never seem to get the minor things figured out.

[Iamyourking]

The sentiment is appreciated, but the statement was aimed at Eldan; as I have never heard anything from you.

[The Tygre]

What is and isn't useful is a matter of perspective, my right blood. This isn't an essay where we pass or fail you for how good it is. We've got a crew of homebrewers and nothing but time. All that matters is that the content gets posted, even if its just a skeleton. We'll put the blood and the bones and the veins in bit by bit. Believe in yourself! And if you can't do that, believe in the me who believes in you! YOURS IS THE ANGEL ARCHON THAT WILL PIERCE THROUGH TO HEAVEN!

[Eldan]

We aren't making angels. Stop saying that, it annoys me. Archons and angels are different in every aspect of their being.

Anyway, I still can't come up with anything. I'm sitting here, and staring at things and thinking "Nah, just adding +2 constitution to this monster here is boring". I can't come with anyting interesting. Monsters need abilities that make them stand out. I mean, I could probably make you another Ogre or Orc. But who wants that?

[The Tygre]

We aren't making angels. Stop saying that, it annoys me. Archons and angels are different in every aspect of their being.

Sorry. Old Dicefreaks/Green Ronin/Mongoose Publishing habit. Tends to die hard, don't y'know?

Anyway, I still can't come up with anything. I'm sitting here, and staring at things and thinking "Nah, just adding +2 constitution to this monster here is boring". I can't come with anyting interesting. Monsters need abilities that make them stand out. I mean, I could probably make you another Ogre or Orc. But who wants that?

I'm not a picky eater. Joking aside, let's start at the basics. Conceptually, what are you working on? What kind of halo we talkin' about here, blood?

[Eldan]

Nothing. That's it. Nothing.

I'm sitting here, looking at existing archons and thinking "maybe I could do that." Then I stare at a screen for ten minutes and write nothing. Then I move to the next Archon. And so on, in circles. I am utterly uninspired.

[The Tygre]

All right then, now we're getting somewhere. It sounds like you need direction, but something that's not too hard. How 'bout one of the variant lantern archons? Short, sweet, simple, to the point. Take one of the floating lamps, reskin em', gut em', and stuff its lil' aetheral bum-hole full of... let's say Humility. There; official Gates of Heaven assignment. Get on the Humility Archon toot sweet.

[Eldan]

And how do you represent Humility? Don't think I didn't try the virtues.

Humilitas. Bravery, modesty and altruism. Not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. Self examination. Being faithful to promises, make sacrifices, have the courage to do tasks that are necessary, but not glamorous. Not suffering from fear and despair.

I can quote that Wikipedia entry by heart now. Doesn't mean I can think of any mechanics to represent it.