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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Yeah, we do need to exercise more discretion than WotC did when they ripped off of someone else's mythology. I mean, we're not here to completely re-write Celestia or anything here, but if the project starts straying into IRL religion, we'll get shut down and informed that fun is mandatory.

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Agreed- maybe stick with the BoED names, and avoid bringing in more famous ones.

    Is Tome of Battle a good idea? Maybe some of the Celestial Hebdomad could make use of maneuvers?

    Pictis Sophia as a Setting Sun-heavy Swordsage might be a good idea.

    Or Raziel "The Firestar" as a Crusader (maybe with a few Desert Winds powers).
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    It's horrible when that happens. Roland says it in that voice, and it's like you just can't stop smiling.
    Don't be silly. Roland has no mind control, he says so all the time. Let's jsut go back to our fun...
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack217 View Post
    Uh... hey Iamyourking is it just me or is your version of celestia incredibly heavily and blatantly based on Christian mythos and biblical references? If so you might want to tone it down. Like say by changing some names or something.
    I think we just need to try and walk the thin red line. IRL mythology is already there, full of philosophy, epic stories, poems, and songs; why let it go to waste? However, rather than a direct adaptation, I say we go for... a strategic retelling and generalization for the Multiversal Mythos. Yeah, I like the sound of that. Go the Green Ronin route and tweak it just enough to keep our asses out of the fire.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I mean the Hedbond are at least tolerably fleshed out. They are not anywhere near perfect but I don't know that they should be the first thing on are list. I suggest making tome archon a template like archfiend as in all Hedbond members are tome archons but not all tome archons are hedbond members. thoughts?
    Or we could start by restating archons so they aren't horrible in comparison to their fiendish counterparts.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    I think we just need to try and walk the thin red line. IRL mythology is already there, full of philosophy, epic stories, poems, and songs; why let it go to waste? However, rather than a direct adaptation, I say we go for... a strategic retelling and generalization for the Multiversal Mythos. Yeah, I like the sound of that. Go the Green Ronin route and tweak it just enough to keep our asses out of the fire.
    Tygre he already have a version of celestia from BoED, its just not nearly fleshed out enough, possibly because it had to share space with other good outsiders in one book, and the other books like the codex's paint good as woefully incompetent. We already have a model.
    Last edited by blackjack217; 2010-10-02 at 12:03 PM.


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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Agreed- maybe stick with the BoED names, and avoid bringing in more famous ones.

    Is Tome of Battle a good idea? Maybe some of the Celestial Hebdomad could make use of maneuvers?

    Pictis Sophia as a Setting Sun-heavy Swordsage might be a good idea.

    Or Raziel "The Firestar" as a Crusader (maybe with a few Desert Winds powers).
    Remember that most monsters in ToB can use maneuvers as if they were initiators, and the Hebdomad merely replicates the traits of some classes. Thus, you can mix and match both.

    For example, and this one I find crucial: Pistis Sophia should probably have stuff from Monk, Swordsage, and probably psionics as well. Monk fluff has tied very well with psionics, and there is precedent with the Sibyllic Guardian. This would make Pistis Sophia quite powerful (maneuvers and psionics tend to mesh very well), but she would show restraint; whomever faces her will definitely get what they deserve. Ideally, she'd have powers typical to Psychic Warriors as if she were a 20th level Ardent or so, perhaps with access to Mantles, and she would manifest maneuvers as a 20th level martial adept with the Setting Sun and Devoted Spirit maneuvers (if not any others).

    Raziel, on the other hand, has some overlap between Crusader and Paladin, a bit of Cleric with the War domain as well. Definitely he should have a strong smite, similar to what his own PrC offers (Good aligned, deals double damage as per Charging Smite, extra damage chains to others), plus any weapon he holds is both Holy and Greater Bane (evil outsider, +4 to attack and damage, +4d6 extra damage as if he was a Knight of the Chalice). He would use maneuvers as a 20th level character, with probably Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers (not sure about the latter two). Oh, and cast spells as a 20th level cleric, but having access to the Paladin spell list.

    Sealtiel would be quite similar to Raziel, but on the defensive side: perhaps a much better form of Defensive Stance that allows him to move, maneuvers as 20th level martial adept with Devoted Sprit and Stone Dragon maneuvers, cast spells as a 20th level Cleric with the War and Protection domains and also access to the Paladin spell list. Maybe having Divine Grace to add his Charisma to saves.

    But of course, these are mostly mechanical aspects instead of fluff, which is what I believe would be the interest in here. In that case, Pistis Sophia would be fitting for those who wish to follow a path of ascetism, or to unlock the powers of psionics; a defender of knowledge, wisdom, psionic power and so on. Perhaps clip the wings, since why does s/he need actual wings if she can just levitate with his/her own mind? And s/he should be a bit more...shapeless, so to say: representing that the quest for self-improvement and knowledge knows no gender, no race and no limitation except for the limitation one presents on oneself. S/he'd be also the one Tome Archon that would call everybody "young grasshopper", the kind of caring and wise yet also stringent master.

    In fact, that could be resumed in a few words: to unlock the wellspring of power stemming from the knowledge of the self, the world, the planes, and everything in between. I presume it would be best to define each Tome Archon that way, in a short phrase that could resume their main purpose, and develop fluff that fits that. Ideally, that would fit with the mechanics (if any) as well, having the BoED version of Pistis Sophia as a glimpse of his/her avatar (not even the real him/herself, hence why s/he was thought of as a woman). In fact, that wouldn't even be his/her name, that's just how mortals know the Tome Archon because s/he would be far too difficult to define at a glimpse.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Remember that most monsters in ToB can use maneuvers as if they were initiators, and the Hebdomad merely replicates the traits of some classes. Thus, you can mix and match both.
    Yup- reth dekala, and valkyries. Theirs are only per-encounter with no recovery though. Maybe they'd have some "innate" maneuvers, and some levels in a class?

    A bit like the Lords of the Nine, which have both outsider levels, and class levels (dicefreaks versions).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-10-02 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    One step at a time, guys. Build the over structure before we fill the individual spots.

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack217 View Post
    Uh... hey Iamyourking is it just me or is your version of celestia incredibly heavily and blatantly based on Christian mythos and biblical references? If so you might want to tone it down. Like say by changing some names or something.
    To a degree yes, although it also draws influence from The Gates of Hell with regards to fallen angels and the origin of Celestia; and the BoED in regards to a lot of the basic structure and the roles of the Hebdomad. I actually got a lot of inspiration from the Immortal's Handbook as well.

    Although I certainly can tone it down, I think we should try to aim for the same general level as the Gates of Hell in regards to mythological references.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    To a degree yes, although it also draws influence from The Gates of Hell with regards to fallen angels and the origin of Celestia; and the BoED in regards to a lot of the basic structure and the roles of the Hebdomad. I actually got a lot of inspiration from the Immortal's Handbook as well.

    Although I certainly can tone it down, I think we should try to aim for the same general level as the Gates of Hell in regards to mythological references.
    Uh... but you completely replace the Hebdomad with archangels who's names and portfolios are carbon copies of Christian lore. That's hardly following the BoED which clearly sets up the Hebdomad as the Lords of the Nine's opposite. I have no problem with you changing the role of the Hebdomad if you want to just say that. Also your presentation of Sandalphon is great and one that I will be using as a template for my 8th of the 7.

    Umm... lets move on to a less contentious topic, ideas?


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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    No, they are still around, just not as the people in charge. Besides, look at the Lords of the Nine; most of them are lifted straight from the same sources. Although frankly I don't see it any differently than using the Olympians or the Aesir or any other group of divinities, I can certainly change it to fit the theme of the project. Personally I like the idea suggested earlier of having the Seraphim be other names by which the Hebdomad are known by.

    Good to see that someone likes Sandalphon though.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I'll just point out that the Olympians are not part of a major world wide religion, which was why WoTC used them, and because they where lazy.


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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I use Biblical names for heavenly lords (and gods, and demons, and evil gods) in my personal campaigns but generally if making something for public use you need to file off angelic names to avoid offending people (for some reason you have more leeway with demons).
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    In return I'll point out that a lot of this is from Dante's Paradisio and other noncanonical sources and that Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Lillith, Belial, Mephistopholes, Mammon, and Moloch passed without comment and leave it at that.

    In any event, it's a very rough draft. Just let me know what, if any, of it we're using and I'll write and design plenty around it.

    Edit: Zaydos, you have a point there. I don't think it's offensive or even that it could be considered offensive but the other designers are free to pick and choose what they want to use from it.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2010-10-02 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    that's because most people recognize archangel Micheal but do not recognize Beelzebub, which is itself an insult to some Mesopotamian god or another. Also I think its the whole Christian heaven = where good people go. Now... back on topic


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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Sign me up for now. I have at least read the Planescape fluff in Planes of Law and the monstrous compendia.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    In any event, it's a very rough draft. Just let me know what, if any, of it we're using and I'll write and design plenty around it.
    Write up and design whatever you wish; you don't need permission for any of it. We can do integration and name-scrubbing (if necessary) afterward, and anything that doesn't get used the original creature can always be used elsewhere.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Okay, I thought I'd start with the the higher levels of nonunique Angel. I was thinking maybe mid-twenties for Principalities, late-twenties for Powers, early-thirties for Virtues, mid-thirties for Dominions, and late-thirties for Thrones with any higher powers being in the 45-70 range like in the Gates of Hell. Should have a rough version of the Principalities soon.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    An idea struck me today; Devils are divided into the three tiers. Arch-Devils, Lords, and Dukes. So I've been thinking about how to order celestials that way, with three tiers. Here's what I've got;

    Angels
    Seraphim
    Cherubim
    Ophanhim

    Archons
    Thrones Virtues
    Dominions Powers
    Powers Principalities

    And now, my little primers, it's time to sit down and pike up. Ol' blood Tygre's gotta' something to chatter on about like a Mimir. Those halos on the hill have darks about em', and Uncle Tygre's gonna' tell ya'. But he didn't make it; this here penned by a much greater, wiser blood than I. The most barmy cager you ever did see, with planes in his eyes and pens in his hands. That cutter there Eldan knows em' like I do. You best be listenin' to what this one says, you sodding sods. Your Book of Exalted Darkness can go kiss a dabu for all I care. Ladies and gentlemen; Rip Van Wormer on Heaven.

    The Hierarchy of Mount Celestia


    (The following is adapted from Alex Robert's Crown Archons article, from Li Po, from Children of Fire, from In Nomine, and from the Nephilim game, among other more traditional sources, by Lane Ripley of Worms)

    Order of Crowns

    Being the Near-Powers of the Archon Hierarchy

    Israfel, Lord of the Trumpets, the Burning One, four winged, weeping, angel of revelaton, messengers, herald of the apocalypse, of war, of warning, whose heart strings are a lute, and who has the sweetest voice. Israfel's home is called the Silver Castle. See Planes of Law MC Appendix, under 'trumpet archon'.

    Israfel is a tiny little angel surrounded by a big burning glow like a solar has. His trumpet is silver and perfect, but alone of the trumpet archons he isn't permitted to blow it. Instead, he sings. Sometimes he sings in accompanyment to Duma's dreams.

    Azrael, Izra'il, Death's Bright Angel: An embodiment of the force of Death, more Power than archon, identified by some with the Dustmen's supreme being. Azrael is unapproachable and absolutely neutral in his dealings with other powers of Mount Celestia. Azrael and his trumpet archon and movanic deva servants dwell in Rempha, the City of the Sands of Time, though he has also been rarely reported arising from the Glass Tarn in Venya. Although they are never allowed to be in his presence (probably for their own good, in the wardens' minds) Dustmen pilgrims sometimes leave offerings for him.

    Serosh, Prince of the Crystal Understanding, Tirfiridian of the Ivory Tower: Serosh is Mount Celestia's master of strategy. He and his servants watch the flow of magic and mentalism across the worlds. He can transform any substance into any other substance. He can cure any wound, affliction, or illness. He is loyal to his friends, taking this trait to sometimes ridiculous extents. Of the Crown Archons, he is most opposed to the baatezu.

    Raguel, Angel of Chill: A powerful solar, thought to have responsibility for all the space 'above' and 'around' Mount Celestia, and to rule the star-creatures of Lunia. Raguel commands companies of planetars, devas, stellar devas, monitors, lights, sword archons and einheriar associated with cold and starlight. "Go and sound the trumpet for the angels of cold and snow and ice, and bring every kind of wrath upon them that stand on the left." Raguel reports directly to Yves, Crown Archon of Destiny. Chant on the Mount claims that Raguel has gotten soft in more recent times, and is no longer willing to push as hard in pursuit of his duty, being more interested in guidance than combat. Raguel also dwells in Rempha, the City of the Sands of Time, but he also spends time just floating in space.

    Ariel, angel of the Lethe: a warden archon who guards the secret origins of the River Lethe in Yetsirah and the Isle of Forgetfulness in Chronia. Ariel is the only individual in the archonic hierarchy permitted to erase information from the official records.

    Saraqael, Angel of Repentance: A being who encourages people, both mortals and petitioners, to repent of their sins. Saraqael acts as prosecutor before the trials commanded by the Irin and Qaddasin. Some see him as cruel.

    Sandolphan, Princess of the Ashim: Sandolphan is the Guide. She can locate any object and answer any question. She rules the air, the wind, and the cardinal points. The Ashim are sword archons under her command, and invisible servants under theirs.

    Duma: the thousand-eyed angel of silence and the secrets within. The silence leading to and emanating from death and sleep. Duma dwells in Chronia, and communicates with the lower Heavens through dreams. Allied with Israfel, angel of song. Dumah is a sword archon servitor whose dreams mirror Duma's own.

    Uriel: the Angel with the Fiery Sword, Light of Purity. Uriel has made it her duty to prevent foreign influences from tainting the perfection of the Seven Heavens. She argued bitterly against allowing Jazirian and its followers from settling in the plane, and more bitterly still against including the new castes in the hierarchy. Eventually, she came to consider the Swords, Trumpets, and aasimon to be as pure as any other archons, but she still looks at Israfel and Jazirian with suspicion, and works against them whenever possible. Uriel's minions will be very suspicious of anyone not born on the Mount, and will subject them to rigorous scrutiny. Uriel watches over the Veil of Tears, a valley in Lunia designed to purge those who truly desire redemption.

    The Irin: The Watchers, twin judges of Mount Celestia. Eyeless, sexless, and blind, with skin the color of pearl; their faces are shining light. The Irin are the princes of Justice. They never sleep -- their unused dreams are collected by Duma and kept in a sealed tower.

    The Qaddisin: Twin judges, complements of the Irin. They move slowly under their night-black robes, countless eyes peering out of their cowls. Like the Irin, they never sleep. Their dreams are collected by Duma for unknown purposes. The Qaddisin are the Inquisitors of Mount Celestia, concerned with the letter of the Law.

    Remiel: Mercy. The angel of Mercy acts as representative for the defense during the trials overseen by the Irin and Qaddisin. Her servants stand in lesser trials overseen by the throne and tome archons.

    Zagzagel: archon of knowledge, librarian of the Mount. His servant is Moakibat, Contemplative of Memory, and a council of twelve noctrals. Zagzagel resembles a warden archon, but with an owl's head. Zadzagel is frequently at odds with Duma.

    Ahura Mazda (or Ormazd), "the Wise Lord," was an ancient power associated with the Twin Serpents, and considered by all who know of them to be their elder, although he favored Jazirian. After the Fall, Ahura Mazda joined the Bright Twin on Mount Celestia, where he became involved with the archons.

    Inhabitants of Rempha, City of the Sands of Time


    Angels of the Seasons


    Spring

    Governing archon: Spugliguel (head of the sign of spring)

    Serving archons: Amatiel, Caracasa, Core, Commissoros

    Summer


    Governing archon: Tubiel (head of the sign of summer)

    Serving archons: Gargatel, Gaviel, Tariel

    Autumn

    Governing archon: Torquaret (head of the sign of autumn)

    Serving archons: Tarquam, Guabarel

    Winter

    Governing archon: Attarib (head of the sign of winter)

    Serving archons: Amabael, Cetarari (Ctarari)


    Angels of the Months

    Cambiel, Barchiel, Malahidael, Asmodel, Ambriel, Muriel, Verchiel, Hamaliel, Zuriel, Barbiel, Advachiel, Hanael


    Angels of the Hours

    Lunia: Gabriel

    Mercuria: Raphael

    Venya:
    Anael (Anahel)

    Solaria: Michael

    Mertion: Sammael or Sandalphon

    Jovar: Sachiel (Zebul in the day and Sabath at night)

    Chronia: Cassiel

    I rest for now. Post more later. EDIT: Virtues, principalities, and powers work a lot better for the archons.
    Last edited by The Tygre; 2010-10-02 at 04:39 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Okay, I thought I'd start with the the higher levels of nonunique Angel. I was thinking maybe mid-twenties for Principalities, late-twenties for Powers, early-thirties for Virtues, mid-thirties for Dominions, and late-thirties for Thrones with any higher powers being in the 45-70 range like in the Gates of Hell. Should have a rough version of the Principalities soon.
    I would suggest finding a different name for the Powers if possible, since that also refers to unique beings and there could be some confusion there. I can't think of anything really good at the moment; maybe Choirs or Crowns?

    EDIT: Looks like I've been beaten to Crowns, but we can find something else.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2010-10-02 at 04:27 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    We should clearly upgrade some of the seven archons to higher power levels. As it is, Celestia really lacks anything able to take on a Balor or Pit Fiend.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    We should clearly upgrade some of the seven archons to higher power levels. As it is, Celestia really lacks anything able to take on a Balor or Pit Fiend.
    Well, re-statting the archons is one of the goals mentioned in the OP, so it's on the table if anyone wants to start doing that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Not me. I've never done monsters.

    Another thing:
    I think we should stay with the seven categories of Archon, as a general theme of sevens (seven highest archons, seven types, seven layers) is a nice starting point for some flavour.

    However, to differentiate them a bit, how about subtypes? I made a greater lantern archon once, tasked with guiding the other poor little lights. How about a Bloodhound Archon, specialized even more on hunting? Different kinds of Sword Archons dedicated to martial disciplines? Different kind of magical trumpets for trumpet archons?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Not me. I've never done monsters.

    Another thing:
    I think we should stay with the seven categories of Archon, as a general theme of sevens (seven highest archons, seven types, seven layers) is a nice starting point for some flavour.

    However, to differentiate them a bit, how about subtypes? I made a greater lantern archon once, tasked with guiding the other poor little lights. How about a Bloodhound Archon, specialized even more on hunting? Different kinds of Sword Archons dedicated to martial disciplines? Different kind of magical trumpets for trumpet archons?
    Now that's an excellent idea, and much better than the MM's strategy of just throwing paladin levels on things for the "hound archon hero" and such. I haven't 'brewed many monsters lately, but I think I'll take this one on.

    By the way, do we want to be posting all the homebrew here, or posting them in separate threads to leave this as a planning thread? I'm in favor of the latter approach for mechanics but the former for flavor, as the mechanics benefit from outside critiquing but new flavor would best be judged by those familiar with the rest of the flavor once we get a lot of it. What say you all?
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    I'd suggest just linking it here, otherwise, it would get pretty confusing fast, with people commenting on different things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Not me. I've never done monsters.

    Another thing:
    I think we should stay with the seven categories of Archon, as a general theme of sevens (seven highest archons, seven types, seven layers) is a nice starting point for some flavour.

    However, to differentiate them a bit, how about subtypes? I made a greater lantern archon once, tasked with guiding the other poor little lights. How about a Bloodhound Archon, specialized even more on hunting? Different kinds of Sword Archons dedicated to martial disciplines? Different kind of magical trumpets for trumpet archons?
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    Capital idea, old chap! Capital idea!
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Thank you.
    A little critique on your angel idea: while the names Seraphim, Cherubim and so on are of course great, I would distance myself from "angel". Not only because it means "messenger" while Archon means, basically, "ruler", but also because that's already taken for the "any good " outsiders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    I would suggest finding a different name for the Powers if possible, since that also refers to unique beings and there could be some confusion there. I can't think of anything really good at the moment; maybe Choirs or Crowns?

    EDIT: Looks like I've been beaten to Crowns, but we can find something else.
    Good idea, although I doubt Choirs is fitting; I'm trying to stay with the concept of having them be elite warriors and the protectors of mortals. Maybe Guardians?
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Thank you.
    A little critique on your angel idea: while the names Seraphim, Cherubim and so on are of course great, I would distance myself from "angel". Not only because it means "messenger" while Archon means, basically, "ruler", but also because that's already taken for the "any good " outsiders.
    An issue I was actually about to raise, that we need to find a differentiation between Angels the species and angels, the umbrella term for good-aligned extraplanar creatures. Maybe Angels can be Empyreals, or just stick with Devas as a whole.They are what comprises most of the order.
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    Default Re: The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

    Empyreals isn't bad. Planescape used Aasimon and Deva in a simliar fashion to Baatezu and Tanar'ri, after they decided Angel, Devil and Demon were no longer fitting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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