Animate Objects

[AxeD]

I've got a few questions about the Animate Objects spell.

Firstly, what can you actually make your constructs do? How much control do you have over them? The description states:
"Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate. "
Does that mean you can't control them outside of giving them targets to attack? Can you get them to perform other tactical manuvers? Can you get them to perform minor tasks (albeit clumsily)?

If so, it seems that this spell can be massively abused when used in conjunction with the Permanency spell.

It does have some interesting ideas though. Assuming that since the text allows for this spell to be cast on "objects", you should be able to use the spell to create multiple permanent animated objects with one casting of permanency.

It'd make a pretty cool trap if a 14th level wizard created and stored 14 tiny and small-sized puppets inside a bag of holding. For optimal usage, he would have the puppets coat themselves in poison stay inanimate in the bag. If the bag was ever stolen, the thieves would get 14 poisoned attacks in the face when they opened the bag without saying the de-activating password.

I can just imagine the look on the faces of the thieves when they open up a seemingly normal bag and get attacked by over a dozen crazy wooden puppets

[hamishspence]

Given that they "follow orders without question to the best of their abilities":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm

they may be quite useful. Still, the commands might have to be very simple, like "Attack anyone but me who opens this bag".

[Diarmuid]

Where are you seeing the whole follow orders thing?

You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life. Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate.
An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell.
This spell cannot animate objects carried or worn by a creature.

Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Seeing as how they dont have any Intelligence, I think having them do anything but mindlessly attack the target is beyind the scope of the spell. They're certainly not going to go out of their way to get themselves into flanks and whatnot.

[hamishspence]

Where are you seeing the whole follow orders thing?

In the description of Animated Objects as monsters:

Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as animate objects or similar supernatural abilities.

Combat
Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. They follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities. Since they do not need to breathe and never tire, they can be extremely capable minions.

[Diarmuid]

Ah, hadnt thought to look in the actual monster description.

I still think the limitation on what they can do applies. As they have no language, they have no way to comminicate with you or have you communicate with them. The only communication is still the move-action indication of what enemy to fight specificly mentioned in the Animate Object spell.

[hamishspence]

Animated undead have the same no-intelligence issue- yet nobody objects to the idea that an animated undead can be given basic orders- "move that way and do not attack anybody" and so on.

[Diarmuid]

And the reason they are able to is specifically called out in the spell that creates them.

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

Both spells determine exactly how you can interact with your creations.

[hamishspence]

Golems require the Animate Objects spell to create- and obey the orders of their creators, despite being mindless:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm

The impression I got (from the monster description, which makes it clear animated objects will obey orders) was that they work like golems- you give them very basic orders and they will obey.

Aren't animated objects in D&D fiction normally obediant enough to respond to commands like "move this way and attack nothing"?

[Diarmuid]

While Animate Object is listed as a requirement for creating a Golem, it is not the only thing contributing to the Golem's "life".

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. Constructing one involves the employment of mighty magic and elemental forces.

The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator.

Heck, a Clay Golem requires Commune and Resurrection as part of the construction process.

The Golem entry again gives the specifics about how they can be commanded.

Golems are tenacious in combat and prodigiously strong as well. Being mindless, they do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of any strategy or tactics. They are emotionless in combat and cannot be provoked.

A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his or her absence. The golem’s creator can order the golem to obey the commands of another person (who might in turn place the golem under someone else’s control, and so on), but the golem’s creator can always resume control over his creation by commanding the golem to obey him alone.

So again, there are specific rules that dictate how you can command the golems. I think that trying to apply golem logic to a simple animated object doesnt work as they are clearly not the same things.

[hamishspence]

Maybe not. Still "follow orders without question" doesn't really make much sense if there's only one order you can give "attack that target" and it won't even move on your say-so.

[Diarmuid]

I'm not saying it makes sense and I acknowleged that they seem somewhat contradictory.

That being said, following orders and that order only being "attack that thing" while seeming somewhat silly does work logically.

[hamishspence]

Problem is, a person who's created an animated object, and is now trying to give it simple orders that it can "follow to the best of it's abilities" can legitimately say "It is not following orders" when he commands it to move to a nearby location and it won't do it.

It may be RAW- but I'm not sure if that's what the designers had in mind when they wrote the spell.

[Diarmuid]

And then, were I the DM, I would tell them that they magics animating the creature do not allow for that level of control over it.

And yes, my intepretations are by RAW.

[hamishspence]

It's a rather conservation form of RAW though.

Basically, it's

"The rules don't say you can give it any orders it will obey other than "Attack" therefore you can't"

rather than

"The rules explicitly say you cannot give it any orders besides "Attack".

[Person_Man]

Although it doesn't fit into your Permanency idea, the king of Animate Objects is the Binder. Desharis allows you to Animate Objects at-will once every 5 rounds or until all the objects have been destroyed, with a caster level equal to your Binder level.

The two big tricks for Animate Objects are Bardic Music and Aid Another.

Bardic Music can buff each of your Objects to be quite useful. With the right feats and/or prestige class abilities, Bardic music can buff pretty much anything, including To-Hit and damage (with Warchanter and Dragonfire Inspiration being the standouts). This turns otherwise weak Animated Objects into a swarm of deadly attacks.

Aid Another can be used to buff any Skill check, attack, or AC, and the bonuses explicitly stack (also known as the nanobots combo). So Binder 10 essentially gets a constant floating +20 bonus on any Skill or attack.

[jpreem]

Can mindless things really get morale bonuses by RAW?

[hamishspence]

And can you order one to "Aid me"?

[Daremonai]

Well, the SRD says that bardic music is a mind-affecting ability, and that construct-type creatures (which an animated object is, according to the SRD again) are immune to mind-afffecting.

That would be a no to the bardic music, then.

[Dr.Epic]

I once had an arcane library in one of my campaigns where every book was an animated object. It made sure no one was stealing books.

[Diarmuid]

By RAW, the spell explcitly says what you can do (Move action to give it a target to attack). The animated thing will then do that to the best of its abilities per the animated onject monster entry.

I'm of the mind that you cant assume it allows for anything else. Especially with the other example of Animate Dead where it does give the more detailed explicit way to give more detailed commands.

I once had an arcane library in one of my campaigns where every book was an animated object. It made sure no one was stealing books.

Per RAW those animated books would not actually do anything extraodrinary unless you were able to direct them to attack a specific target with a Move Action per book required to get them to attack.

[hamishspence]

so, are you saying this 18 page thread on how to abuse Animate Object to the maximum:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre..._Skill_Records)

shouldn't have gotten off the ground, since "by RAW animated objects can't follow any order other than "Attack"?

[Diarmuid]

Short answer....Yes.

I cant get to that thread at the moment as it's blocked from my work. Maybe there was some errata that I havent seen, but Animate Object doesnt allow for anything other then move actions that allow you to designate a target that should be attacked.

[hamishspence]

Later in the thread, this was raised- but there were counterarguments:

The animate objects spell in the PHB does indeed say that the objects you animate "immediately attack whomever or whatever you initially designate." Thus, one's animated objects would initially be set to attacking alone. However, it then goes on to say that these animated objects use the game statistics from the Monsters Manual. Looking at the Monster Manual statistics for animated objects, we find that "they follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities." This directly means that animated objects can be ordered about according to the wishes of their master and can act according to what they can do. Since the Exemplar enhancements mean that making skill/attack DCs is now within the realm of their abilities, they can follow orders to utilize those abilities.

Similar wording to Animate Objects is also used on Summon Monster I, which in turn implies that all any summoned monster can do is attack. This hasn't stopped anyone from using Summon Monster to have the monster do something other than attack, such as using a noncombat spell-like ability. And if you want to get technical, sometimes a skill check or an ability check is an attack -- for instance, a monster with a high strength but poor attack rolls might realize that the best way to attack its opponents is to burst the ropes holding the chandeliers in place. If they are capable of doing this, then why aren't they capable of realizing that their best means of attack is to support their summoner?

[Diarmuid]

My group has actually gone so far as to say that unless you have some way to communicate with your summon you cant command it to do anything other than attack your foes.

And my argument for the creature thinking that the attacking that guy to the best of its abilities is protecting the caster or doing something else is directly related to its intelligence and ability to act strategically.

As I mentioned, I agree that the Spell and the Monster description are somewhat contradictory, but "follow orders to the best of its ability" does not mean that the order has to be anything other than "attack that".

again, I'm taking a stricty RAW standpoint on this and that does not allow for any assumptions being made as to what might be meant. By RAW, if it doesnt specifically say you can do it, then you have to assume you cant.