The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Antariuk]

So I just had a strange idea, born of desperation. Why desperation? Well, I really REALLY want to run RHoD as the next adventure in my weekly game, but I also really REALLY want to run my long-planned Dark Sun campaign with Psionics and sh**. Which will probably take up the better part of a year, maybe even more. So my idea was: why not combine the two? Locate RHoD somewhere on borders of the Tablelands, make up a bunch of small settlements, replace Azarr Kul and Tiamat with, I dunno, a forgotten Sorcerer-King that everyone assumed was long dead and is now raising an army of belgoi or something, and play the damn thing in the brutal deserts of Athas. Two birds, one stone. No?

Well, the first, most obvious problem I see is that RHoD and Dark Sun don't mesh all that well in terms of tone. The former is a pretty classic D&D adventure setup and assumes mostly good-aligned heroes who will go out of their way to help the civilian population. The latter posits a world of greed and violence, with little room left for kindness thanks to the immense pressure of everyday survival. So you have to find a better hook for the adventure or it might not take off at all, and you have to include a few more incentives along the way - the players might play characters that are of pure heart, but chances are they're in it for the money and the booze. Which in Dark Sun translates to a a pile of ceramic pieces and a jar full of cactus juice moonshine, so whatever.

Second, in Dark Sun there are no valleys littered with small villages and farms, and even less forests or swamps. At least not if you want to stay on the Tablelands, which I would very much like to (the additions made by the Expanded and Revised Campaign Setting didn't do a lot for me personally). The problem is again one of tone, since it's very easy to just create a bunch of new villages in the desert. But in Dark Sun, settlements are supposed to be few and far between, and every year a few more go up in smoke or get swallowed by the desert. The few forests and oases that still exist are either poisonous hellholes that will eat your face or are watched over by crazy druids who will also eat your face. So either you make Elsir Vale an exception (which then begs the question of why the heck the area is not occupied by a vicious Sorcerer-King or a bunch of face-eating druids), or you reduce RHoD's scale and remove a few of the settlements or decrease the populations drastically and replace the forest areas with tiny oases or petrified forests or something. Which is doable, but... I dunno... maybe too much effort.

Third, there can't be any dragons in the adventure, because Dark Sun has only the dragon. Not a dragon, THE dragon. And you don't want to involve him, you really don't. The adventure is like 15 levels early for that kind of epic shenanigans. Since adventures with dragons are cool, this is a sad fact. Dark Sun has of course its own bestiary full of awesome and crazy monsters that are more than capable to replace the standard D&D dragons, but it is still the loss of an iconic element. Damn.

On the other hand, Dark Sun is no stranger to clashing armies - the Prism Pentad series (mediocre as it was) shows military conflict on a scale that matches the size of the Red Hand as depicted by RHoD. Uniting a bunch of small factions against a common enemy is also something that works very well in Dark Sun since every clan and every village pretty much do their own thing but everyone hates defilers. So that angle works right out of the book.

Also, the stakes are infinitly higher in Dark Sun. Not only because a rampaging Sorcerer-King is bad news for everyone, but also because if the player characters don't succeed at stopping the Red Hand (or whatever you might call it in Athas), there are no reinforcements. Or, to be more precise, the reinforcements that exist are not friendly because they are the army of another Sorcerer-King. And if they come around, they stay - which nobody wants. You might say that's another strike against the idea of RHoD in Dark Sun idea, but to be honest I like it a lot.

So in the end, I don't know. Maybe it's doable, maybe it's just a very bad idea all-around... and I haven't even touched on the subject of converting RHoD's creatures and encounters to something compatible with Dark Sun and Psionics. What do you think?

[ComaVision]

So in the end, I don't know. Maybe it's doable, maybe it's just a very bad idea all-around... and I haven't even touched on the subject of converting RHoD's creatures and encounters to something compatible with Dark Sun and Psionics. What do you think?

It sounds like you have a plan for tackling the biggest conversion points already. I wouldn't necessarily worry about translating all the encounters too directly, especially since most people in this thread are changing out the enemies wholesale anyway. RHoD is a great framework for running an adventure against an entire army, whatever setting you put it in to.

As for the dragon theme, the big bad in the background for RHoD is Tiamat. You could replace Tiamat with THE dragon, so the army is a big dragoncult and you could keep the dragonspawn. Maybe the dragon bosses in RHoD could be replaced by advanced, templated dragonspawn? I feel like the flying aspect of the dragons is a big part of the distinctive combat of RHoD but you may have better ideas (replacing the flying role by burrowing could be cool).

(Also, I remade Wyrmlord Koth as a Psion in my game and he totally kicked butt. He was a way tougher fight for the party than Ozzyrandian.)

[Antariuk]

As for the dragon theme, the big bad in the background for RHoD is Tiamat. You could replace Tiamat with THE dragon, so the army is a big dragoncult and you could keep the dragonspawn. Maybe the dragon bosses in RHoD could be replaced by advanced, templated dragonspawn? I feel like the flying aspect of the dragons is a big part of the distinctive combat of RHoD but you may have better ideas (replacing the flying role by burrowing could be cool).

Yeah, I thought along the same lines, although I'd want to stay somewhat true to Dark Sun's draconic lore (as depicted by the first boxed set, at least from what I could scrabble together throughout various websites and wikis), so dragonspawn might be out. My first idea was to use the list of Rajaat's champions and pick one that is listed as being killed and have him or her come back with a vengeance, as a nasty psionic defiler who very much wants to become the dragon but isn't there yet. OTOH, that would likely provoke a response from the other Sorcerer-Kings, at least the more proactive ones like Hamanu, so maybe that's not such a good idea.

Another idea was to use the thri-kreen empire as written in the Expanded and Revised Dark Sun, but then again they aren't really the bad guys and I prefer having great evil coming from the leaders of humanity than from an insectoid race that doesn't really go all genocide on the world.

(Also, I remade Wyrmlord Koth as a Psion in my game and he totally kicked butt. He was a way tougher fight for the party than Ozzyrandian.)

Which edition did you run the adventure with? 3.5? I'm going with Pathfinder, drooling over Ultimate Psionics right now (never played with Psionics before) and ideas are popping up left and right...

[ComaVision]

Yeah, I thought along the same lines, although I'd want to stay somewhat true to Dark Sun's draconic lore (as depicted by the first boxed set, at least from what I could scrabble together throughout various websites and wikis), so dragonspawn might be out. My first idea was to use the list of Rajaat's champions and pick one that is listed as being killed and have him or her come back with a vengeance, as a nasty psionic defiler who very much wants to become the dragon but isn't there yet. OTOH, that would likely provoke a response from the other Sorcerer-Kings, at least the more proactive ones like Hamanu, so maybe that's not such a good idea.

I haven't read that much Dark Sun material (happened to pick up the campaign settings book at a garage sale). In RHoD though, the party doesn't know about Azarr Kul or what he's up to until way later. As you mentioned, Dark Sun is no stranger to clashing armies and a large invasion could provide cover for something else. Maybe a Champion of Rajaat has organised an invasion to cover the acquisition of ritual items, or to provide a sacrifice or some sort that the party doesn't learn about until the Battle of "Brindol".

Which edition did you run the adventure with? 3.5? I'm going with Pathfinder, drooling over Ultimate Psionics right now (never played with Psionics before) and ideas are popping up left and right...

3.5 yeah, I'm not familiar with Pathfinder psionics.

Also, do you keep campaign journals? I'd be interested in following your Dark Sun campaign, particularly if you do an adaption of RHoD.

[Antariuk]

I haven't read that much Dark Sun material (happened to pick up the campaign settings book at a garage sale). In RHoD though, the party doesn't know about Azarr Kul or what he's up to until way later. As you mentioned, Dark Sun is no stranger to clashing armies and a large invasion could provide cover for something else. Maybe a Champion of Rajaat has organised an invasion to cover the acquisition of ritual items, or to provide a sacrifice or some sort that the party doesn't learn about until the Battle of "Brindol".

Sounds reasonable. I think some kind of nasty surprise will be great, but if the party has at least a general idea about what's going on that wouldn't be so bad either. Lots of ways for the storyline to unfold between The Elsir War and The Battle of Brindol.

Also, do you keep campaign journals? I'd be interested in following your Dark Sun campaign, particularly if you do an adaption of RHoD.

Only personal notes, but yeah, I do. Still running a weekly Pathfinder hexcrawl until the end of April, and the Dark Sun game will be next after that. If I really do this - and I am not 100% sure yet - I will absolutely write a campaign diary here and on my blog because I love RHoD and regret not having kept a journal the first time I ran it.

[Dravda]

Thank you so much for compiling all this, Saintheart! I've been reading voraciously and have just started running this classic module for myself (in Pathfinder this time). I'll update you if there's anything interesting I can add to the handbook.

[thorr-kan]

Once upon a time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rellin-s-Ferry), I posted the following about the fall of Drellin's Ferry. But never got any reply.

Spoiler

Show

So, day 12 of the Red Hand of Doom has the PCs in Drellin's Ferry as the Horde makes it's first appearance in the Vale. The authors repeatedly caution against trying to make a stand here. The picture on top of page 40 is particularly evocative. Standing and fighting is a Bad Idea. Run, little PC, run!

Of course, players being players, somewhere there's a table where somebody made a stand. Maybe they were desperate, maybe they were misinformed, may be they were dumb. If this was your table, I'd like to hear what happened.

My table flirted with making a stand. We'd smashed up Koth, but the dragon at the bridge had us worried. But we'd botched some Diplomancy rolls trying to get the Council to evac. So we stepped back, let Soranna do the arguing, and went to buy some time. We were successful in some cat and mouse across the river, but the odds kept going up. We rabbitted back across the river to find the evacuation under way. But we had to fight the first two waves off after a day of guerilla fighting. It was brutal, but we triumphed and then ran. Again.

We were all pretty mad at this point, until the DM showed us the picture on page 40. That's when we realized what the Vale was facing. That's when we realized there was nobody else. That's when we stepped up and answered the Call.

It was the first campaign the Monday Night Group went on together. We started as strangers. But we ended as heroes.

Has anytbody else ever tried to save Drellin's Ferry? What happened?

[Coidzor]

Once upon a time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rellin-s-Ferry), I posted the following about the fall of Drellin's Ferry. But never got any reply.

Spoiler

Show

So, day 12 of the Red Hand of Doom has the PCs in Drellin's Ferry as the Horde makes it's first appearance in the Vale. The authors repeatedly caution against trying to make a stand here. The picture on top of page 40 is particularly evocative. Standing and fighting is a Bad Idea. Run, little PC, run!

Of course, players being players, somewhere there's a table where somebody made a stand. Maybe they were desperate, maybe they were misinformed, may be they were dumb. If this was your table, I'd like to hear what happened.

My table flirted with making a stand. We'd smashed up Koth, but the dragon at the bridge had us worried. But we'd botched some Diplomancy rolls trying to get the Council to evac. So we stepped back, let Soranna do the arguing, and went to buy some time. We were successful in some cat and mouse across the river, but the odds kept going up. We rabbitted back across the river to find the evacuation under way. But we had to fight the first two waves off after a day of guerilla fighting. It was brutal, but we triumphed and then ran. Again.

We were all pretty mad at this point, until the DM showed us the picture on page 40. That's when we realized what the Vale was facing. That's when we realized there was nobody else. That's when we stepped up and answered the Call.

It was the first campaign the Monday Night Group went on together. We started as strangers. But we ended as heroes.

Has anytbody else ever tried to save Drellin's Ferry? What happened?

We made it to Cinder Hill with only marginal trouble with the dragon and mass fire by the hobbos at the bridge. That kinda cinched it for us, and after securing the bridge and taking out a group of reinforcements that were coming to relieve the guards at the bridge, we decided it was a big enough threat to see what we could of their camp and then skedaddled, only stopping briefly to destroy the bridge as we ran all the way back.

I don't see how you can want to stand at Drellin's Ferry instead of checking out the bridge and then after the trouble with the dragon(which is a subordinate on guard duty), and then either checking out the army camp or taking the red hand seriously without needing to see for themselves.

A party built for it could probably use kiting and guerilla tactics to slow the advance of the horde until the commanders turned their attention to the PCs, but they kinda out level and outgun the PCs and have the magic to drive the PCs off or force them to flee until they've leveled up enough. The issue there is that by the time a party can take out the horde and its commanders, they're nearly to Brindol, so they probably only have the time to bloody it's nose beforehand, and risk not being at full power for the battle of attrition when the horde strikes.

Also, if they focus on guerilla warfare and delaying the horde, they might buy time for the defenders of Brindol, but they also buy time for more razorfiends and undead and giantkin to get brought in by the horde.

Would be interesting to see how that would end up playing out, if they'd be higher leveled or lower than expected, what level of resistance by others would they be able to arrange or inspire...

[Elder_Basilisk]

We made it to Cinder Hill with only marginal trouble with the dragon and mass fire by the hobbos at the bridge. That kinda cinched it for us, and after securing the bridge and taking out a group of reinforcements that were coming to relieve the guards at the bridge, we decided it was a big enough threat to see what we could of their camp and then skedaddled, only stopping briefly to destroy the bridge as we ran all the way back.

I don't see how you can want to stand at Drellin's Ferry instead of checking out the bridge and then after the trouble with the dragon(which is a subordinate on guard duty), and then either checking out the army camp or taking the red hand seriously without needing to see for themselves.

A party built for it could probably use kiting and guerilla tactics to slow the advance of the horde until the commanders turned their attention to the PCs, but they kinda out level and outgun the PCs and have the magic to drive the PCs off or force them to flee until they've leveled up enough. The issue there is that by the time a party can take out the horde and its commanders, they're nearly to Brindol, so they probably only have the time to bloody it's nose beforehand, and risk not being at full power for the battle of attrition when the horde strikes.

Also, if they focus on guerilla warfare and delaying the horde, they might buy time for the defenders of Brindol, but they also buy time for more razorfiends and undead and giantkin to get brought in by the horde.

Would be interesting to see how that would end up playing out, if they'd be higher leveled or lower than expected, what level of resistance by others would they be able to arrange or inspire...

It's a little tough to see the whole guerilla warfare thing going on for long. If the party were effective enough to make a difference, they'd attract the marked for death encounter fairly quickly and if they prevailed and were still harassing the main horde after that, I expect that Abiathrax, Skather, and the hordes' leaders would set a trap and deal with them. Teleport is about the only way I can see for a party to escape the kinds of traps the Red Hand could set if they are willing to put their top shelf assets (Abiathrax, Skather, General Kharn, etc) into play (Abiathrax is fast enough to catch anyone who tried to run using conventional means) and the party is not likely to be high enough level to either have teleport or to be able to fight their way past Abiathrax, Skather, General Kharn, or any of the likely pincers that the Red Hand would apply to stop them.

The survivable option for the PCs would be to harass outriders but not quite enough to be worth the time of the enemy's high level assets. Doing so would slow the Red Hand but would probably not earn enough XP to be the levels they would need to be for the Battle of Brindol. And of course they wouldn't stop the razorfiend hatchery, recruit the dwarves, or break up the ghostlord alliance.

[Tajerio]

I'm running a party of newbies through RHOD starting next weekend, and I'm a touch worried about this party's composition. Everyone went with her favorite character concept, and as a result we have a druid, a dual-wielding ranger, an archery rogue, and a barbarian.

Three of the four have fighting mounts, so wrecking the action economy isn't going to be a problem. But there's no arcane caster in the party. How big an issue is this going to be?

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm running a party of newbies through RHOD starting next weekend, and I'm a touch worried about this party's composition. Everyone went with her favorite character concept, and as a result we have a druid, a dual-wielding ranger, an archery rogue, and a barbarian.

Three of the four have fighting mounts, so wrecking the action economy isn't going to be a problem. But there's no arcane caster in the party. How big an issue is this going to be?

When I played through RHoD as a player, we had a Druid (until the player left after we dealt with the Ghost Lord), my Ranger/Rogue/Dread Commando, a Cleric, and we later picked up a Fighter/Wizard (or maybe he was a Duskblade...?) I do faintly recall there being an NPC Wizard of a lower level that the DM introduced and had me run later on.

Though wizards do tend to shine in RHoD (fireballs versus hoards of hobgoblin Warrior 2's), the adventure can be done without the big boomsticks. I can't recall anything specific where an arcane caster was absolutely required.

The druid will shine, btw. Druids really shine like bright stars in RHoD, as the writers planned the adventure around the typical CFRW.

[Zero_Knight]

I have to say that my group has suffered greatly without having a full arcane caster. I'm running a game of E6 and have various levels of players as well as styles but the only way they have even gotten this far is brute force because of the lack of options a Wizard or even Sorcerer would have had.

Not to say that it hasn't been fun, but when you consider Rhest as a major challenge because of setting you realize without a bit of planning you can easily wipe the group.

-Z

[Antariuk]

I'm running a party of newbies through RHOD starting next weekend, and I'm a touch worried about this party's composition. Everyone went with her favorite character concept, and as a result we have a druid, a dual-wielding ranger, an archery rogue, and a barbarian.

Three of the four have fighting mounts, so wrecking the action economy isn't going to be a problem. But there's no arcane caster in the party. How big an issue is this going to be?

It really depends on the group's experience and system mastery. Players who don't delve into all the fancy and advanced character options will have more problems in RHoD without an arcane caster, but groups who know how to get the most out of a divine caster won't feel as challenged. I'd keep an eye on how the group tends to overcome problems that fall into classic arcane spellcaster territory, such as battlefield control or energy damage/resistance, and maybe adjust the RHoD forces slightly, or distribute a few appropriate loot items (if the party has characters with ranks in UMD a few wands and scrolls are fine, but without decent UMD skills one should look at wondrous items such as elixiers).

I have to say that my group has suffered greatly without having a full arcane caster. I'm running a game of E6 and have various levels of players as well as styles but the only way they have even gotten this far is brute force because of the lack of options a Wizard or even Sorcerer would have had.

Not to say that it hasn't been fun, but when you consider Rhest as a major challenge because of setting you realize without a bit of planning you can easily wipe the group.

-Z

I think this might a curiositiy of E6... interesting. What supplements are used/allowed in your game?

[thorr-kan]

I don't see how you can want to stand at Drellin's Ferry instead of checking out the bridge and then after the trouble with the dragon(which is a subordinate on guard duty), and then either checking out the army camp or taking the red hand seriously without needing to see for themselves.

We smashed Koth, whupped on the dragon, and successfully dropped the bridge. We figured that a roused populace and the river made Drellin's Ferry a decent place to stand. We were wrong.

Guerilla tactics would slow the horde, but they won't save Drellin's Ferry. There's just not enough land area to work with.

I'd be interested in seeing what a heavily optimized party could do at Drellin's Fer

[tsj]

Could red hand of doom be played in the iron kingsoms setting? Perhaps with a little steam punk and some steam tanks for good measure?

Maybe cygnar is being invaded by an unknown force that uses steam punk tech, steam tanks and other goodies?

What are my options in this kind of setup?

The main atagonist should be a crazed steam punk flavored wizard inventor type of guy

[Elder_Basilisk]

Could red hand of doom be played in the iron kingsoms setting? Perhaps with a little steam punk and some steam tanks for good measure?

Maybe cygnar is being invaded by an unknown force that uses steam punk tech, steam tanks and other goodies?

What are my options in this kind of setup?

The main atagonist should be a crazed steam punk flavored wizard inventor type of guy

I'm not familiar with Iron Kingdoms but I'm not sure what you're really retaining if you replace the dragons and tiamat priests with a crazed steampunk wizard/mad scientist. Here would be some of the challenges I see with the flavor change you are proposing:

1. Motivation. As written, the Red Hand is a genocidal movement of Tiamat worshipping fanatic hobgoblins. If you replace that with something else--steampunk clanks, steampunk hobgoblins with clanks, whatever, does it still make sense for them to be genocidal fanatics? If they're no longer genocidal, you lower the emotional stakes. Not that being enslaved is good but it's not as scary as being killed and eaten.

2. Coherent theme. As written, the encounters have a lot of dragons, tiamat priests, and evil outsiders. All of those go together very nicely since Tiamat is a dragon goddess. If you replace the Tiamat worshippers with mad scientist wizards, and the outsiders with steam tanks, do you keep the dragons? It seems like you either lose some of the coherency or some of the variety in the encounters and if you change all of the encounters entirely, you're pretty much down to keeping the schedule and that's it.

3. Plot points. Vraath keep doesn't need the draconic connection, but Rhest does. The lizardmen worship the dragon--if you're not keeping the draconic theme, why are they allied with the Red Hand? And while the swamp is a great place to breed razorspawn, it doesn't seem like it's a good place for a steam tank factory. So Rhest would need some major reworking to change the theme. The Ghostlord could stay--your crazed wizard could be blackmailing a lich with his phylactery just as easily as the Red Hand, but Abiathrax and the bluespawn at the barrier combined with the favored soul of Tiamat General Kharn are all pretty important and only the bluespawn could be readily replaced by steam tanks without changing the structure of the encounter. The end chapter in the fane of Tiamat seems like it would be harder to justify and difficult to adapt as well. Saying that a blood sacrifice (or lots of them) is necessary in order to open the portal to Avernus makes sense of quite a few of the Red Hand actions, but it's not clear why the creation of a steampunk clank army would need to be delayed till after the battle of Brindol. And I don't see how you would adapt the aspect of Tiamat to the steampunk setting.

Now I'm sure you could address all of those with an extensive rework of the adventure. But it's a lot of work and it seems like it might be easier to just write an entirely new one.

[tsj]

Thanks for the feedback.

Iron kingdoms is a d20 steam punk setting with various empires such as khador, cygnar and others.

They use huge constructs and various troops and
Victorian firearms in battle

What if they still worship tiamat but have hired steampunkish mercenaries from armies such as khador and others and/or is attacked by cygnar?

Or if they worshipped some kind of steampunk god such as the machine spirit?

Is it only possible to include steam punk by giving them equipment?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Thanks for the feedback.

Iron kingdoms is a d20 steam punk setting with various empires such as khador, cygnar and others.

They use huge constructs and various troops and
Victorian firearms in battle

What if they still worship tiamat but have hired steampunkish mercenaries from armies such as khador and others and/or is attacked by cygnar?

Or if they worshipped some kind of steampunk god such as the machine spirit?

Is it only possible to include steam punk by giving them equipment?

My knowledge of iron kingdoms is pretty much limited to having seen the minis for the skirmish games.

That said, my general genre understanding is that steampunk is primarily an aesthetic. You could certainly give the adventure a steampunk veneer by having steampunk equipment. Now, if you give the hobgoblins victorian firearms, give the hobgoblin combatants like Kharn and some of the bladebearers etc steampunk power armor and replace some of the various giants with steampunk constructs, you might have enough steampunk flavor for you without having to rework the encounters, maps, setting, and timelines too much. The hordes minis certainly make it seem like monsters and demons have a place in the iron kingdoms setting, so mixing in some evil outsiders and dragons with your genocidal tiamat worshipping steampunk hobgoblins (or whatever race you want--I don't think it's especially important that the enemy be hobgoblins; as long as the lore of the setting allows for the Red Hand to be disciplined and organized, any humanoid should do and it's pretty easy change a hobgoblin to a human, or whatever is appropriate in Iron Kingdoms).

Now if you want to lose Tiamat as the patron of the Red Hand, I think you're in for a much bigger conversion project. Using a Machine Spirit rather than Tiamat means you'd want steampunk mechs or something rather than dragons. You'd probably want a factory in Rhest rather than a hatchery, so it probably isn't in a swamp. Making those changes might sap the campaign of some of the setting and encounter variety that it enjoys. (I think Red Hand of Doom has done a very good job of integrating a variety of monster types and settings while still making the Red Hand horde feel like a coherent enemy rather than a random selection of monster manual pages. As written it has five major monster types: humanoids, dragons, giants, evil outsiders, and undead--if mechs replace the outsiders and dragons as well as the giants, you're down to three and undead really only show up in one part. Likewise, you have jungle, swamp, necropolis dungeon, city, and forbidden temple dungeon settings; if you lose the swamp for the Rest section, it could end up feeling more samey). If the setting has some kind of machine spirit plane, I guess outsider mechs like modrons or inevitables could come out of the portal in response to the blood sacrifice and you could have an avatar of the machine spirit show up at Azar Kuul's fall (though really that part of the adventure could probably be left out without any trouble--killing Azar Kuul is a perfectly fine finale to the adventure).

Now I don't know if Cygnar has any remote, rural and peaceful areas far away from garrisons, but my impression of the game has been that Cygnar is a lot more militaristic than the default Elsir Vale, so you might have some conversion work to do in order to make a 3500 hobgoblin army suddenly showing up a credible threat to overrun the vale. Depending upon the political organization, you might find my posts on adapting the Red Hand of Doom to Sterich in the world of Greyhawk helpful. I found a few ways to address the challenge of adapting an adventure set in a bucolic, peaceful setting that is pretty much completely militarily unprepared and has no centralized standing military able to respond to threats to a setting that is no stranger to military conflict, and does have an authority that would be capable of responding to sudden threats.

[tsj]

Elder_basilisk:

Thanks for your feedback.
I will check out your post about RHOD in Greyhawk.
I think I will be keeping tiamat but add in the steam punk
equipment and some constructs (warjacks)

I would like to include both the khador empire and the cygnar empire if possible but maybe cygnar could be attacked by RHOD if I use your RHOD alterations :)
And yes cygnar is highly efficient and militaristic

About the rural areas, hmm.. I might need to read up on fluff in order to be aware of that :)

Hmm.. the RHOD could have steam jacks that are actually wh40k dreadnoughts and killa kans

[Elder_Basilisk]

Elder_basilisk:

Thanks for your feedback.
I will check out your post about RHOD in Greyhawk.
I think I will be keeping tiamat but add in the steam punk
equipment and some constructs (warjacks)

I would like to include both the khador empire and the cygnar empire if possible but maybe cygnar could be attacked by RHOD if I use your RHOD alterations :)
And yes cygnar is highly efficient and militaristic

About the rural areas, hmm.. I might need to read up on fluff in order to be aware of that :)

Hmm.. the RHOD could have steam jacks that are actually wh40k dreadnoughts and killa kans

Replacing the ogres and giants with steamjacks would probably work pretty well from an encounter construction perspective--I'm sure there are Jacks that fill the "big tough bruiser" role and that would let you steampunk up the Red Hand flavor without losing the dragons and outsiders.

Cygnar may be more problematic. As you will see from my comments, Sterich can work but it is a small corner of the world (so 3500 actually is a big army) and has internal politics and a feudal structure that can prevent it from responding quickly and efficiently to the threat. You might be able to introduce some story aspects to Cygnar that make it work (a war elsewhere causing draw down of garrisons, an incompetent or corrupt general who would be responsible for relieving the city but can't get started because his trains/whatever are poorly maintained and his supply stocks are fictions--he's really sold the ammunition and fuel that is supposedly in the warehouse on the black market, etc), but it will need some careful thought especially if Cygnar is usually efficient and competent.

[tsj]

Elder_basilisk :

Ah yes cygnar could be using most of its resources fighting a huge war against the khador empire

Then the RHOD could use this opportunity to strike a blow against one of cygnars remote cities

Maybe cygnar has just invaded llael at great cost and is now fighting khador with great difficulty

Then they wouldn't pay much attention to remote cities near the bloodstone desert

They could have a general that is a traitor since
the southeast part of the kingdom is no longer under cygnars rule

Menoth is instead under the rule of some priesthood.

Maybe one of their generals are actually sympathetic to menoth ?

So he sold supplies and gave the money to menoth or gave the supplies to menoth

They are also always fighting menoth, it's normally their main enemy but

They could have decided that they should conquer llael in order to make up for the loss of menoth

Unfortunately khador saw a chance to try and take llael from them since they are now low on resources

The battle of llael continues and rule shifts between cygnar and khador

http://privateerpress.com/iron-kingd...-iron-kingdoms

[Fizban]

Has anytbody else ever tried to save Drellin's Ferry? What happened?

Jon_Dahl's campaign journal here had that, in the usual pattern of didn't scout-> got wrecked. They were not playing heroes however, so they got wrecked all the way through Brindol.

I'm running a party of newbies through RHOD starting next weekend, and I'm a touch worried about this party's composition. Everyone went with her favorite character concept, and as a result we have a druid, a dual-wielding ranger, an archery rogue, and a barbarian.

Three of the four have fighting mounts, so wrecking the action economy isn't going to be a problem. But there's no arcane caster in the party. How big an issue is this going to be?

Get those guys on flying mounts, maybe buy a Necklace of Fireballs (or Icy Strand or Acid Pearls etc) and they should be just fine, though keep an eye out for what Antariuk said. The Icy Strand of the North in particular should be quite good if used sparingly by a tactically minded person (even if they don't pump up their own character): no saves and battlefield control on even it's damaging crystals.

Edit: oh, and a partial solution to fast flight without dragons could be the Flight of the Dragon spell. Problem is it's 4th or 5th level (SpC or Draconomicon), and it's not quite as fast at only 150'. Flying mounts should work just as well for bad guys as players though, Pegusai start with 120' and most Special Mount features boost speed eventually.

[Tajerio]

Get those guys on flying mounts, maybe buy a Necklace of Fireballs (or Icy Strand or Acid Pearls etc) and they should be just fine, though keep an eye out for what Antariuk said. The Icy Strand of the North in particular should be quite good if used sparingly by a tactically minded person (even if they don't pump up their own character): no saves and battlefield control on even it's damaging crystals.

Edit: oh, and a partial solution to fast flight without dragons could be the Flight of the Dragon spell. Problem is it's 4th or 5th level (SpC or Draconomicon), and it's not quite as fast at only 150'. Flying mounts should work just as well for bad guys as players though, Pegusai start with 120' and most Special Mount features boost speed eventually.

I'm definitely thinking hard about giving them a couple of battlefield control spells via wand/wondrous item--the rogue's UMD is wisely maxed out, but she didn't actually buy anything to use it on so I'll have to drop something for her in the upcoming treasure.

Everybody's mount is ground-bound, unfortunately for the flight aspect, and hoo boy did those mounts slow down combat in the first session. The instant we got into the Marauder Ambush, everybody looked at the amount of space they had to work with and dismounted. But then everyone kept forgetting that her mount could take actions too, which was compounded by a lot of tricky maneuvering so that three Large mounts and two Medium characters could fight in a rough battle line (since they're scared to death of being flanked).

In that vein, I've noticed my players are absolutely petrified by the spectre of taking damage, or of being in a mildly unfavorable combat situation. The ranger took two hard hits from the bladebearer in the back (there were lots of Spot and Listen fails) that carved off half her HP, and as a result the player was panicked for basically the rest of the combat. The rogue's tiger mount was tripped, and upon hearing that standing it back up would provoke an AoO, she had it stay down for the rest of the combat. When Zarr came in and beat the barbarian's will save with a command spell, everyone (save for the barbarian, happily enough) thought it was the end of days. And I'm not even mentioning the psychological effect of the hellhounds' breath weapons. The funny part, of course, was that only one of the party ever even went into single digits, and that wouldn't have happened either if they'd focused fire.

My question is, then, what does one do with a jittery newbie party like this? Among other things, I started rolling the hobgoblin regulars' attack rolls in front of them, so that they knew how hard it was for the hobbos to hit them, which did help a bit. But what to do about somebody like Koth? If I sling even a single 6d6 AoE spell into them, there's a decent chance they all run for the hills. So how do I get them to grow backbones?

[Cwymbran-San]

My question is, then, what does one do with a jittery newbie party like this? Among other things, I started rolling the hobgoblin regulars' attack rolls in front of them, so that they knew how hard it was for the hobbos to hit them, which did help a bit. But what to do about somebody like Koth? If I sling even a single 6d6 AoE spell into them, there's a decent chance they all run for the hills. So how do I get them to grow backbones?

Confidence grows with success. Survival alone is not success per se (unless you are playing a horror campaign...). Make them feel powerful by using colorful descriptions of what their successful rolls amount to. If the player hits the hobbo for maximum damage, explain to him the caranage he caused and the look of terror in his opponents eyes. Let them see that the other guys can be afraid of PCs, too.

[Fizban]

Everybody's mount is ground-bound, unfortunately for the flight aspect, and hoo boy did those mounts slow down combat in the first session. The instant we got into the Marauder Ambush, everybody looked at the amount of space they had to work with and dismounted. But then everyone kept forgetting that her mount could take actions too, which was compounded by a lot of tricky maneuvering so that three Large mounts and two Medium characters could fight in a rough battle line (since they're scared to death of being flanked).

That's why the flying. Don't care about space, don't care about distance, don't care if the mount attacks, just get there and smash face. But if they're playing like as you've described, well flying or no flying it'll cause problems. I'm tempted to say they've got their heads in the right place for fighting with no healing reserves or magic support, but your further description does make it clear they're just going overboard. If you gave them flying mounts at this point they'd probably dismount a mile from the fight and run away if they saw a single bow.

I usually solve all problems with magic: people tend to expect anything that dies to fireball to die to a sword just as well, but obviously you can't tell the mage to make a demonstration with no mage. It'll have to go slow and steady as they figure out what they can fight. On the other hand, I'd say yeah, have Koth drop a fireball on them. Learn there's more important things to worry about than mooks flanking you.

[Tajerio]

That's why the flying. Don't care about space, don't care about distance, don't care if the mount attacks, just get there and smash face. But if they're playing like as you've described, well flying or no flying it'll cause problems. I'm tempted to say they've got their heads in the right place for fighting with no healing reserves or magic support, but your further description does make it clear they're just going overboard. If you gave them flying mounts at this point they'd probably dismount a mile from the fight and run away if they saw a single bow.

I usually solve all problems with magic: people tend to expect anything that dies to fireball to die to a sword just as well, but obviously you can't tell the mage to make a demonstration with no mage. It'll have to go slow and steady as they figure out what they can fight. On the other hand, I'd say yeah, have Koth drop a fireball on them. Learn there's more important things to worry about than mooks flanking you.

They do have healing reserves and magic support (which makes their reluctance a little more ridiculous). They've got a druid, and the party did cheer up noticeably after she got into the action and popped a couple CMW's. Unfortunately the druid's player felt left out because she didn't get to make attack rolls like everybody else at the table, but she also didn't want to go into melee wildshaped. So for next time I've hunted her up druid spells that need attack rolls. Give the people what they want, I suppose, even if what they want is a single-target ranged touch attack blaster druid. I think I'll probably have to sit down with her and explain how potent she can actually be.

But yeah, slow and steady while I and they figure out their capabilities is going to have to be the order of the day. I'm thinking I'm going to restrict Koth to blasting and not hammer them hard with battlefield control off the top.

[Palingenesi]

I apologize if this question has been asked before, but 35++ pages of posts are a lot :P
Here's my question: my characters have fought the battle of brindol, killed Kharn but failed to stop the army itself. They know of the ritual to open a portal to Avernus, but they keep screwing around and haven't yet faced Azzar Kul. I do not believe every adventure should finish with a happy ending, and I'm thinking of making Azzar Kul complete his ritual if he is not disturbed any time soon. What are the consequences? The book does not take into account a possible failure, but I have no problem in a super catastrophic event, like summoning Tiamat herself! What do you guys think?

[Antariuk]

I apologize if this question has been asked before, but 35++ pages of posts are a lot :P
Here's my question: my characters have fought the battle of brindol, killed Kharn but failed to stop the army itself. They know of the ritual to open a portal to Avernus, but they keep screwing around and haven't yet faced Azzar Kul. I do not believe every adventure should finish with a happy ending, and I'm thinking of making Azzar Kul complete his ritual if he is not disturbed any time soon.

What do you mean by "failed to stop the army itself"? They didn't acquire enought Victory Points? Because killing Karn himself is quite the feat and should give them at least some breathing room until a new commander steps up and attacks Brindol again. If that's the case, allow them to do some commando operations to weaken the Red Hand further and then make it an all-or-nothing climax, because that's what chapter 4 should be. As written in RhoD, there isn't a lot of middle ground between "the PCs win and Brindol survives" and ´"the Red Hand wins and Brindol falls".

What are the consequences? The book does not take into account a possible failure, but I have no problem in a super catastrophic event, like summoning Tiamat herself! What do you guys think?

IIRC, the book does indeed talk about what happens if the PCs don't advance to the Fane of Tiamat, as in the Red Hand (now with a lot more extraplanar/monstrous creatures) will overrun Elsir Vale. Since Azarr Kul is supposed to summon an avatar of Tiamat anyway, I don't think introducing the Dragon Lady herself is strictly necessary (nor advisable), that thing is hard enough stats-wise as it is right now. But a bad ending, or at least not a happy ending, is an interesting idea. Just think this through beforehand: will the game end after RhoD, no matter the outcome, or will you allow the PCs to regroup in the east and maybe mount a counterattack on the scorched lands of the vale?

[Palingenesi]

What do you mean by "failed to stop the army itself"? They didn't acquire enought Victory Points? Because killing Karn himself is quite the feat and should give them at least some breathing room until a new commander steps up and attacks Brindol again. If that's the case, allow them to do some commando operations to weaken the Red Hand further and then make it an all-or-nothing climax, because that's what chapter 4 should be. As written in RhoD, there isn't a lot of middle ground between "the PCs win and Brindol survives" and ´"the Red Hand wins and Brindol falls".

They didnt acquire 40 VP. Wyrmlord Koth survived and the army regouped under his command outside Brindol's walls. Meanwhile, the few survivors moved to Dennovar, while the PCs moved towards the Fane.

IIRC, the book does indeed talk about what happens if the PCs don't advance to the Fane of Tiamat, as in the Red Hand (now with a lot more extraplanar/monstrous creatures) will overrun Elsir Vale. Since Azarr Kul is supposed to summon an avatar of Tiamat anyway, I don't think introducing the Dragon Lady herself is strictly necessary (nor advisable), that thing is hard enough stats-wise as it is right now. But a bad ending, or at least not a happy ending, is an interesting idea. Just think this through beforehand: will the game end after RhoD, no matter the outcome, or will you allow the PCs to regroup in the east and maybe mount a counterattack on the scorched lands of the vale?

I wanted to use the Dracolich variant listed in the front page. I really like the idea, even if I had to power down Azzar Kul (invisible, auto crit 220 dmg harm is a little bit too much and leaves little space to counterplay). I intended the Dracolich as the first step towards the ending of the ritual. His help would be sufficient to bring whatever fearsome enough creature to the vale.
Your idea is pretty good. I either make everyone survive and let them prepare a raid back to the Elsir Vale, or else wipe the entire party with Tiamat and prepare for a post-apocalyptic scenario where the players would play epic level characters to defeat her. I might stick with your suggestion tho, since I've never played or mastered a high level campain.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I apologize if this question has been asked before, but 35++ pages of posts are a lot :P
Here's my question: my characters have fought the battle of brindol, killed Kharn but failed to stop the army itself. They know of the ritual to open a portal to Avernus, but they keep screwing around and haven't yet faced Azzar Kul. I do not believe every adventure should finish with a happy ending, and I'm thinking of making Azzar Kul complete his ritual if he is not disturbed any time soon. What are the consequences? The book does not take into account a possible failure, but I have no problem in a super catastrophic event, like summoning Tiamat herself! What do you guys think?

In the adventure, it's pretty clear: if the ritual is not stopped, the Red Hand wins. They overrun the Elsir Vale with the help of the aspect of Tiamat and all the evil outsiders. They may stop at Dennovar, but they may not.

Now, from your post, it sounds like the PCs aren't too interested in trying to stop the ritual. So, why are they "screwing around?" Are they not aware that there is a possibility of stopping the ritual? Do they think the ritual will not be a big deal? Do they think it's already too late since the Red Hand won? Have they lost interest entirely?

Here are a few thoughts on that:

1. If the PCs think that it's already too late, you need to emphasize that the story isn't over. The Red Hand lost most of its commanders (if Koth is now the commander, most of the other wyrmlords must be dead) and apparently a lot of soldiers. They won in Brindol, but presumably they don't have the manpower or leadership for a push deeper into the vale--at least not yet.

You might try a few things: A. have the players talk to Lord Jaarmath and the leaders and get his analysis of the situation: The Red Hand has won decisively, but they've pushed as far as they can without reinforcements. The city council of Dennovar has finally decided to act and are assembling an army which can keep the Red Hand from pushing further into the vale--and possibly retake Brindol if the Red Hand is not reinforced. But if the Red Hand gets the reinforcements from Avernus, Dennovar won't be able to stop them either.

2. If the PCs don't see the ritual as a big deal (so what, the hobgobs get a few devils--not like it'll make a difference), the strategic analysis from above might be enough but you can also emphasize it through interrogations of captured hobgoblins or even prophetic dreams. The hobgoblins can boast that their goddess will send a horde of devils. The players could have a dream showing them devils covering the land like ants and then see the dramatic shadow of the aspect of Tiamat flying above them.

3. If the PCs don't realize that they can stop the ritual, you could also put some of that into the interrogations and descriptions. If they realize that the ritual takes 40 days or whatever, you can let them do the math. If you describe carts of prisoners being taken back to the mountains (and the Fane of Tiamat) for sacrifice, it will be clear that the ritual is not done yet.

Now, if you want to know what kind of adventures you could have assuming the Red Hand completes the ritual and wins, here are a few ideas in the vein of the Silmarillion or Poul Anderson's _Broken Sword_:
A. Vengeance. The PCs are bandits--outlaws attacking hobgoblins and always on the move to avoid the Red Hand. But they can still find and kill Wyrmlord Koth. That might be a worthy goal. Even better if the PCs manage to get their hands on a cursed sword that betrays them resulting in their death at the moment of their vengeance. (PCs marrying their long-lost sisters without realizing it and dying shortly after realizing the horrible truth would also be genre appropriate but is strictly optional).

B. Holdouts. The Tiri Kitor in the swamp might hold out for a while since it would be hard to bring an army through the swamp to get to them and they are able to disburse and hide if the Red Hand tries it. Likewise, the dwarven clanholds might hold out for some time. They might keep the entrances hidden and kill hobgoblins in daring raids until they get too greedy and the aspect of Tiamat comes to burn them out (like Nagrothrond in the lay of Turin Turambar).

C. Refugees. If you go with the dwarven hold idea, even after the hold is found, they might fight a desperate defense at the gate and then collapse the entire top level of the clanhold. The surviving dwarves, the handful of humans who took refuge with them, and the PCs then retreat through the mines and fight off starvation and monsters as they trek through the underdark in search of somewhere they can build anew.

D. Empires at war. The portal to Avernus is only temporary--perhaps a month or a year or something. Start a new game with PCs who are members of or leading a neighboring nation. They have the opportunity to crush the hobgoblins and drive them out and build their civilization in its place. It could play out as a combination of Kingmaker (Paizo Adventure Path) and the Greyhawk Wars, making extensive use of mass battle and kingdom building rules.