The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Coidzor]

Speaking of blue baddies, has anyone used the Bluespawn Godslayers from MM IV? I would love to get some action out of my Huge miniatures. I think a pair of them in the Battle of Brindol would be epic... maybe too much so.

We had a mini-boss fight in the main temple auditorium against one when I played through it the first time. It hit us right after we had been in a running battle with a couple of clerics, so despite the lack of support it was still a challenge. Main problem that limited its effectiveness in that place in particular was our ability to duck out of the way into the secret side corridor(s).

[Dusk Eclipse]

My point was that classed npcs tend to be weaker than their cr lets on, so simply adding classes at a 1:1 rate may not achieve the desired result in actual gameplay.

For example, a hobgoblin fighter4 is a cr4 on paper, but for that same cr, you could also have a young white dragon or very young blue dragon.

Easy, I was just making a question, that is the point of this thread isn't it? asking question about how to run better run RHoD, and to me that would be challenge my players.

Hence why I asked that.

[Runestar]

Easy, I was just making a question, that is the point of this thread isn't it? asking question about how to run better run RHoD, and to me that would be challenge my players.

Hence why I asked that.

I wasn't trying to be rude, apologies if I came across as being too pushy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The was what caused this missunderstanding, now I have to go and start stating....

[Runestar]

The was what caused this missunderstanding, now I have to go and start stating....

To clarify, the was actually meant to express my incredulity at how the designers felt a human fighter4 with npc gear was ever equal to a young white dragon when challenging the party. However I look at it, the white dragon wins in every aspect - more attacks/damage, better hp/saves/skills and misc abilities like flight, breath weapon and movement modes.

So yeah, I think adding 2 more class lvs to every npc might be a good way to start.

[IthilanorStPete]

Speaking of blue baddies, has anyone used the Bluespawn Godslayers from MM IV? I would love to get some action out of my Huge miniatures. I think a pair of them in the Battle of Brindol would be epic... maybe too much so.

Our DM threw a pair of us as the 3rd and last part of the Streets of Blood encounter - was probably the most memorable non-dragon fight of the campaign. We were a pretty powerful party, but we were only able to kill one - we took about half health off the second before it stomped off to massacre the town guard, with us completely unable to stop it.

[Elfin]

Bluespawn godslayers at the Battle of Brindol? That is an awesome idea...I might just have to use it in my own campaign.

[Greymane]

I certainly hope I can get away with asking this here... here goes...

In my IRL RHoD campaign, there's some interesting things going on with the PCs, and I was thinking of tossing a curveball into the ending and... see what chaos ensues among the players.

I need to point out in this new homebrew world of ours, that Bahamut is dead, and metallic dragons are very, very rare. Bahamut was betrayed by a mortal servant of his (he was offered power by another evil deity in exchange for helping slay him, so he did). Most metallic dragons at that point gave into despair and accepted Tiamat's gift of becoming one of her children. I should also note that Tiamat was unhappy that Bahamut was dead. They may have hated eachother, but they were the closest thing to kin there was and she despises humanoids now for their betrayal of him. Thinking the classy lady may have secretly loved him or something but I digress.

Now, onto the end I want.

After the Aspect is slain, I want to leave behind a spark of divinity. The players can choose what they do with it. It could be used to resurrect a dead god (such as Bahamut) or it could be used to add one more divine rank to an existing deity, OR it could turn a PC into a Divine Rank 0 entity.

The interesting part of this comes from the player make-up.

1: The Cleric is secretly a hobgoblin worshiper of Nomog-gea (sp?), the deity of Hobgoblins. He's evil, and wants to re-convert the Red Hand (and kill all the normal goblins since his god hates them). So far he's disguised himself and his underling as humans.

2: The Binder. This unusual fellow as begun a ritual to bring about the literal rebirth of a Vestige. His apprentice, a former prostitute he picked up in Drellin's Ferry, slept with a Tiri Kitor elf (charm magic was involved), and plans to have Lemartes reborn through this child. Considering Lemartes was once a deity in her own right, I could see the Binder wanting the spark for his little project.

Now, with what I intend, I could certainly see this ending with the party at odds with each other. Normally I'm wary of interparty conflict, as it's usually bad.

I ask you people here, would you find this acceptable in your campaign? If not, how could I change things around for the better?

Edit: Ahem. There's more players. Eight in total. However those are the players likely most interested in this ordeal.

[GreyMantle]

That sounds like it could be a lot of fun. But, if any of those things happen, it'd probably be the end of the campaign. Now, that might not be a bad thing, since rhod is such a climactic and long adventure, and the new world could be a very exciting place to adventure in. But I'd probably make sure the players of the characters that aren't trying to to steal the spark won't be too annoyed if everything ends.

[Greymane]

This whole campaign was merely to run this module. The game will end after it's completed, so I can monologue on the outcome of their actions. Whether one of them ascends, Nomog-gea (or another deity) gets more powerful, or if a previously dead deity returns.

[Saintheart]

Then do whatever the heck you like! It's your campaign.

Incidentally, Genn, how'd you find the experience of running 8 people in RHOD? Did it make it hard to challenge the party in battles -- were they cakewalks, or did you need a serious amount of reworking to 'fix' the adventure?

(Details on player experience and levels of optimisation would be handy, too... )

[Greymane]

Incidentally, Genn, how'd you find the experience of running 8 people in RHOD? Did it make it hard to challenge the party in battles -- were they cakewalks, or did you need a serious amount of reworking to 'fix' the adventure?

(Details on player experience and levels of optimisation would be handy, too... )

Sorry, six players. It feels like eight with the bloody Cohort and Thrall, though.

Truly? I find it daunting, but enjoyable. It's been hard to find a balance between TPK and cakewalk.

All the players are very experienced in D&D, but most do not powergame. They like to find some sort of... unique trick a character can do and stick with it. Some optimize more than others, it shows and it makes it hard to balance encounters.

The Characters

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The Cleric has the Leadership feat (Don't look at me like that, we're usually okay with this for RP), making matters a touch more complex. He's also gone into DMM, but I've restricted Nightsticks to not stacking. The cohort is a Spiked Chain-wielding Swordsage/Factotum. He's MAD but effect some of the time. The player knows how to play Clerics well enough, so a decent optimizer.

The Binder/Sorcerer is going into Anima Mage. He opted not to Precocious Apprentice in, so he's not as powerful as the Cleric and Druid. The player knows his stuff and can optimize, but I think feels optimizing for the sake of optimizing is evil. The player is also frothing mad irritated that all the dragons they keep fighting have Scintillating Scales up on them, but I'm not about to change smart tactics if he's not willing to find a method of dispelling.

The Druid is terrifying. He worked with the Binder's player to optimize and took Aberrant Wildshape alongside the feat that allows you to get some Su abilities that a form has when you become it. He enjoys using eye rays as a Gauth and has yet to become a Mindflayer. The player is pretty new to D&D, but is a quick learner and enjoys how powerful he is.

Phrenic Rogue/Dervish is very tame, and is a glass cannon. She likes her characters to have low Str and low Con, which is cause for concern for me, because she also likes the Quick Trait. At level 9 she has not quite 30 hp(!) and some of the monsters could have one-shotted her easily by now. Talented RPer who crafts wonderful backstories for me to work with, however. Mechanics in D&D also make her head hurt, so she avoids combat when she can, as it bores her as well.

Psion/Thrallherd (You're looking at me like that again...) The player was formerly a Half-Giant Half-Celestial Monk (houseruled to not suck), but fell for a ploy by Saarvith and had his throat ripped out in the marsh of Rhest by Reggi. The character is evil, but optimized decently for high save DCs. Since the character is keen on getting his Thralls and Believers killed willy nilly, and is unpleasant, I think that he will be abandoned by the party at some point, if not turned into the authorities (mind-control magic is regarded as evil throughout most of the world). He has yet to participate in a fight, so I'm unsure how he'll fair.

Bard. This player was formerly a Githzerai Soulknife (again, houseruled a bit to not suck), but was torn to ribbons by my modified Greenspawn Razorfiend in the same fight the Monk died. The character is based entirely on Captain Hammer from Dr. Horrible, and I have yet to see him in combat. He'll do a lot of manly singing, I wager. The player knows nothing about practical optimization, so I imagine the character will sing, and try to be a manly-save-the-girl-with-my-muscles kind of guy, but fail at that because Bards don't do the brute strength small brain thing very well.

The first part of the campaign was a cakewalk for them. So much so, that the Druid player wanted to sit back in Drellin's Ferry and take on the Horde himself. (He did, by the way, but the other players left long before then. He also failed miserably)

We're in the second part, and they just defeated Saarvith and Reggi, but they both got away. I ended up making ALL the ogres in Rhest the Ogre Barbarians from the MM which actually gave them pause when the Rogue and Factotum/Swordsage noticed they couldn't Sneak Attack them.

I ended up liking the outcome of the fight (two players dead, the others very winded) because when the Razorfiend showed up, they didn't bother with it (even after I scared the crap out of them with the first one earlier) until after it diced the Soulknife up. I suppose the black dragon with a Ranger/Scout mounted on him was a pressing issue though.

I'm having a blast so far, though, and so is everyone else.

[Coidzor]

^: so you only have 3 characters, a cohort, and a thrall participating in battle?

What do the rest of the players do during that time?

Incidentally, Genn, how'd you find the experience of running 8 people in RHOD? Did it make it hard to challenge the party in battles -- were they cakewalks, or did you need a serious amount of reworking to 'fix' the adventure?

(Details on player experience and levels of optimisation would be handy, too... )

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We had 10 players at one point during Rhest due to some family being in town, so they rolled up guest characters and basically made it such a cakewalk the DM plot deviced a way to get it down to 6 of us for the fight against Regiarix. More usually we had 8 from Koth to before entering the ghostlord's territory when we lost a player and went to 7 characters who lasted for the duration. (Though, occasionally, the wizard and dread necromancer wouldn't participate in the adventure due to player illness which bumped us down to 5 characters at various intervals.)

Between the extra time it takes to do anything and the action economy advantage, our DM quickly found that increasing the number of creatures per encounter wasn't the way to go about addressing the issue, even though we weren't very optimized (monk, gnome paladin, rogue/fighter, blaster druid, dread necromancer, wild elf barbarian, necromancer) and several of us were new players, with it being the 1st or 2nd campaign ever for 3 of us.

So, you'll be wanting to ramp up the encounters even if they don't really optimize simply because they have a bigger bulwark of HP and spells and power. Making the first couple of encounters a test out for the feel of the party would not be remiss, since they're generally fairly easy up until the bridge/hydra and using the data from that to modify your idea for the rest of the chapters.

[Greymane]

^: so you only have 3 characters, a cohort, and a thrall participating in battle?

What do the rest of the players do during that time?

The Rogue doodles. But that's common for her. She likes story telling but hates seeing it bogged down in combat and mechanics. She knew what she was getting into, however, when I warned her that having THAT low of HP was a BAD idea. Her phrenic abilities hit like a mac truck, though, so she dishes out a lot of hurt with those.

I'm not sure what the Bard will do yet. I think he felt overshadowed even when he was a Soulknife. I recommended Snowflake Wardance to him but he ended up not taking it, so I just plain don't know what to do with him.

The Binder.... knows how to optimize, but doesn't. If it gets him killed he'll just have to deal with that.

Besides, if they fail, this setting will have a cool dragon-worshipping Hobgoblin Empire.

[AslanCross]

Speaking of blue baddies, has anyone used the Bluespawn Godslayers from MM IV? I would love to get some action out of my Huge miniatures. I think a pair of them in the Battle of Brindol would be epic... maybe too much so.

I used one of them in the Fane of Tiamat in the Cavern of the Guardian Spawn instead of the Razorfiends, which by then are pathetic. I gave it a couple of levels of Hulking Hurler. I did see a blog campaign journal that used them in the Battle of Brindol, but IMO they're way too much at that level. They'll steal Kharn's thunder besides.

[Coidzor]

Besides, if they fail, this setting will have a cool dragon-worshipping Hobgoblin Empire.

You mean a Hobgoblin Kharrrrrrnate.

...

...

Dangit, now I'm thinking about the mongols and how cool it would be to make some kind of artillery undead out of one of those pyramids of skulls...

[Runestar]

I ended up making ALL the ogres in Rhest the Ogre Barbarians from the MM which actually gave them pause when the Rogue and Factotum/Swordsage noticed they couldn't Sneak Attack them.

Whoa...that's some major buffing of cr!

[Greymane]

Whoa...that's some major buffing of cr!

I was tired of them destroying every Ogre left and right like they were nothing. The battle was actually perfectly challenging for them, as they put out some hurt, but still went down pretty fast. I was pleased with the result.

[Runestar]

Figures. cr3 opponents just aren't challenging against a 7th lv party.

I am looking at Drossang Tachlash here and wondering if he might make for an interesting recurring npc.

The idea is for him to first replace Koth at the keep as a normal redspawn arcaniss (similar effect - practiced spellcaster means 10d6 fireballs, spellcasting thematics for 3 rays from scorching ray). Naturally, he will be defeated.

Then have him return as a ghost (or is there a cheaper incorporeal template?) to harass the party. How can we optimize him further?

[Coidzor]

Then have him return as a ghost (or is there a cheaper incorporeal template?) to harass the party. How can we optimize him further?

A single level of the ghost savage progression class might be what you want, or just apply those benefits as an LA+1 template... 3 levels if you want it to be able to come back with a level check without fudging.

I am looking at Drossang Tachlash here and wondering if he might make for an interesting recurring npc.

The idea is for him to first replace Koth at the keep as a normal redspawn arcaniss (similar effect - practiced spellcaster means 10d6 fireballs, spellcasting thematics for 3 rays from scorching ray). Naturally, he will be defeated.

Well, her madness could definitely be a downside to using her against them. Played intelligently though, the incorporeal spellcaster blasting the party with spells is pretty nasty, and it pretty much negates melee by being able to fly at all times and hide in objects/the ground.

It could make for a good alternative Marked for Death encounter though, and a fun little bit of fluff to customize the Fane further (since it just makes sense to have the body be there with the items it's going to be using)

[Saintheart]

Just logging that I added some more notes into the Battle of Brindol section at the front of the thread.

Onto another quick vox pop:

Did you expand the campaign to include a sidetrip to the Hammerfist Holds? What other sidequests can chew up some time in an interesting way?

[AslanCross]

Just logging that I added some more notes into the Battle of Brindol section at the front of the thread.

Onto another quick vox pop:

Did you expand the campaign to include a sidetrip to the Hammerfist Holds? What other sidequests can chew up some time in an interesting way?

I included the Hammerfist Holds, but at that time the PCs were sure they were running out of time, so they just passed by very quickly. It did not really warrant much of an expansion in my opinion.

I didn't really add much in the way of sidequests; I did play up the wilderness travel, though, especially in the Fifth Chapter. I depicted the Fane of Tiamat as the remotest part of the already remote region, and it was truly a hellish trip there.

[Emy]

I've just started running RHoD.

My campaign:
Party: undead illumian cleric inquisitor, human warblade dragoon, halfling swift hunter crossbow sniper, and an elven generalist wizard.

All I've done so far was the marauder attack, to get a feel for the party. Since the cleric's player was stuck at work, I left out the second wave of hobgoblins. I regret that now because their entry would have given the wizard a chance to show off, but oh well--he's a wizard, I'm sure he'll have plenty of other chances to show off.

I have "played" a test group through the adventure up to about midway through the Fane of Tiamat to familiarize myself with everything, so hopefully that'll help me judge what would be a challenge to my party. The main concern for 'boss' monsters is that the wizard could SoL them (glitterdust) or that the dragoon will be able to kill just about anything in one round if she manages to drop down on it from above. For the wizard, Blind-Fight and an extra sense (blindsense, mindsight, tremorsense, something like that) would help them go down fighting while still taking some penalty from the blinding. Iron Heart Surge might be a good idea too, and I could use that (on a non-ToB enemy) to give the party an Iron Heart Vest. For the dragoon, terrain (or fighting flying enemies, like the dragons) could prevent her from charging. That can be overcome either with cleverness or good teamwork, which is a good thing, since both of those things make the game more fun for the players.

Generic NPC Improvements:
I'm definitely going to give most named NPCs an extra level or two, and make the elite fighter types into Tome of Battle classes. The hobgoblin bladebearer was supremely underwhelming as a fighter. It moved in to attack the warblade, and died to a critical AoO. I think that giving them reach and/or some way of avoiding AoOs would make them a much more interesting fight, without making them -too- deadly.

I may make the Red Hand have more clerics, which would use group buffs to make the hobgoblin regulars more of a credible threat. I'm reluctant to increase their level or give them better gear, because they're the most basic soldiers of the army. There are a ton of them, so their gear is mass produced, and there's nothing special about them, so they really -should- be quite weak compared to the PCs.

Unnaturalness:
Also, the mention of playing up the unnaturalness of the greenspawn got me thinking, and I'm considering using the proto-creature template (from Dragonlance) to help add to their unnaturalness. I think that in my campaign, instead of summoning demonic aid, it's going to be stuff from the Far Planes. So some of the later boss-type creatures, like the Aspect of Tiamat and possibly Abithriax will have the pseudonatural template.

Skather:
Additionally, I'm going to make Skather into a sneaky Dread Necromancer. The party are going to leave a good number of corpses behind them, so towards the end of the campaign, I'll replace one of the difficult fights with Skather and his minions: a few skeletal dragons (Ozyrrandion, Regiarix) and a zombie Hydra (awakened for fast healing). Skather can still easily be responsible for the sniper attack, by having made a Bone Creature, Corpse Creature, or Dread Warrior of a ninja. I'll post the stat block when he's done, of course.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok... I am beggining to worry that I might overpower my encounters when running RHoD... I have just starting stating up the Maruder Attack Encounter (normally EL 8) and according to a EL calculator.. I have pushed it up to EL 10

Here are my changes

Instead of 6 Hbg warriors 2, 4 Hbg fgt 4
Intead of the Bladebearer as fgt 4... a Wbd 4
The doom cleric, is now level 4
and I am going to use a dire wolf instead of the hell hounds.

The second wave will be 2 of my hbg fighters.

Am I pushing this too much?

For the record I am expecting that my players will optimize to a degree.

[Starbuck_II]

Ok... I am beggining to worry that I might overpower my encounters when running RHoD... I have just starting stating up the Maruder Attack Encounter (normally EL 8) and according to a EL calculator.. I have pushed it up to EL 10

Here are my changes

Instead of 6 Hbg warriors 2, 4 Hbg fgt 4
Intead of the Bladebearer as fgt 4... a Wbd 4
The doom cleric, is now level 4
and I am going to use a dire wolf instead of the hell hounds.

The second wave will be 2 of my hbg fighters.

Am I pushing this too much?

For the record I am expecting that my players will optimize to a degree.

Any reason for these changes?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Any reason for these changes?

I want to teach my players how to optimize (I will help them to do so, and I will probably link them to the Handbook section at BG) and I want to really challenge them.

[Elfin]

Honestly, I think that is too much: the first fight is intended to be merely an easy introduction. I think the upgrades to the cleric, bladebearer, and hellhounds are fine, but honestly I'd just make all the other hobgoblins regulars or veterans.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Really? maybe... just upgrading the regulars to fighters instead of warriors.

[Runestar]

Maybe upgrade them to fighter2 with the elite array?

The current hob warriors won't be able to scratch your party at all, unless you really stack the attack modifiers (massed charge, buffs like bless etc).

Hellhounds have the same cr as dire wolves, so the change shouldn't make the encounter any more challenging by rights (though I do find the wolves tend to make for tougher opponents).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hey does any one has suggestion on what should I use to replace the giants... I decided to set my game on Eberron and (inspired by Aslan's Cross) I decided to replace the giants because of the setting history. The problem is that I don't want to rip-off Aslan Cross by using Warforged Titan.... so suggestions?