oWoD vs. nWoD, and White Wolf in general

[Solarn]

This has been eating at me for a while now, but I only now managed to put it into words that make sense for anyone else.

I too was originally one of the people who hated nWoD on principle, mostly for messing with Vampire and cutting most of what I considered the interesting bits. But now I've had the chance to read some nWoD rulebooks and even play one or two short games, and I must say, I altogether like nWoD much more than oWoD.

In hindsight, oWoD suffered from what I want to call "Don't change a good thing even when it's not so good anymore" syndrome. If you look at all the games and take away the unique, but ultimately gameplay-oriented (as opposed to fluff-oriented) gimmicks they have, they are very much the same. White Wolf chanced upon a fantastic tone of bleak nihilism and waiting for the end of the world with V:tM, and transplanted it into everything else they did.

Werewolf: the Apocalypse is the most obvious offender, basically being Vampire WITH WEREWOLVES! It also introduced an element that was originally missing from V:tM, but became a staple of all other oWoD games, a battle between the "good guys" (who are good only by virtue of not wanting the world to end) and the "bad guys" (who do), which the "good guys" are fated to eventually lose and are in fact already losing. (There was, if I remember correctly, no value judgement applied to either the Camarilla or Sabbath in Vampire at first, that came after the success of the other games and even then, the Camarilla was firmly in control until the last few retcons.)

In contrast, nWoD has a much more varied set of moods for their games.
Vampire is dark and brooding as always (and we wouldn't want it any other way), but there's no Gehenna looming on the horizon any more.
Werewolf cannibalized some of Wraith's plot points while becoming much more action-oriented (as it was supposed to be in oWoD, too bad that got ruined by the gothy atmosphere that pervaded all their works).
Changeling became a depressing exploration of existential issues (the only change I lament, as C:tD was the most "fun" of the oWoD games).
Mage lost many of the game-breaking elements it once had (and sadly, became almost as formulaic as the oWoD games).
And as for the new lines, Promethean, for all the **** the titular characters have to go through, has a powerful underlying message of hope and Geist is actually fun this time.

So, to summarize it, the only part of oWoD I truly miss is Changeling: the Dreaming (and maybe the Technocracy from Mage, but that's mostly because of fan supplements I've read that fleshed it out). At the same time, I enjoy the nWoD games a great deal more than I ever did their older counterparts. The tendency to group everything in fives also appeals to my aesthetic sense, but that's neither here nor there.

[Quietus]

To add : The system itself is vastly improved. You aren't rolling against varying difficulties any more, then rolling successes to see how much damage you did, after they roll dodge... no. That was, in my (very limited, admittedly) experience, painfully slow. It's a game; It shouldn't necessarily be upbeat, but it should definitely NOT be boring. So the new system of rolling - simple stat+skill dice pools, modified by defense/circumstances/whatever, against a static number for success, makes the game as a whole run far more smoothly. White Wolf did a fantastic job here, and deserve all the kudos they can get for it.

[Yora]

Sometimes the plans of writers and designers to restart their creation to clean up the mess it has become, do actually work.
Not often, but it happens.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The nWoD rules system is vastly improved, but damn it, I miss my fluff

In particular, the "war of ideas" approach to oWoD Mage was inspired and its implementation was excellent. Yes, it steals from Ars Magicia but, IMHO, it does a better job of fluffing it out.

I still have philosophical complaints with the nWoD mechanics, but it is clear that the Core nWoD did a lot to fix the oWoD "core" system - although it can fairly be asked whether anyone actually used those mechanics while playing oWoD in the first place

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd also like to chime in that nWoD cleaned up the cosmology and the world-building fluff immensely. I, too, liked oWoD, but with every new book that came out and every new addition to their world-building (some of them decent, others horrendously ill-thought) made their setting groan under the strain of the weight. First they ended up having to make crossovers optional, and then they just threw their hands up into the air and declared, "Screw it!". By the time the End Times rolled around, Armageddon was more or less a fart for all the players actually cared.

[comicshorse]

So, to summarize it, the only part of oWoD I truly miss is Changeling: the Dreaming (and maybe the Technocracy from Mage, but that's mostly because of fan supplements I've read that fleshed it out). At the same time, I enjoy the nWoD games a great deal more than I ever did their older counterparts. The tendency to group everything in fives also appeals to my aesthetic sense, but that's neither here nor there.

Ironic considering that Changeling is the game I think improved the most in nWoD going from teeth grindingly twee to a world where we see why fairy tales were meant to scare the hell out of kids.

[Theodoxus]

Speaking of fluff and such, I'm planning on running a Dark Ages campaign, but like the mechanics of nWoD. Would it be terribly difficult to run DA using nWoD? I haven't put much thought into it - and unless deemed impossible or not recommended, I'll probably go forward with it. But any insight would be helpful if anyone has done something similar... don't want to invent the wheel, if I don't have to - so to speak.

[Kurald Galain]

Werewolf: the Apocalypse is the most obvious offender, basically being Vampire WITH WEREWOLVES!

That statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The entire mood, aim, and setting is very different between the old Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage games. The first chapter of each elaborates on this.

And yes, you can play all of them in an "emo" way, but then you can play everything in an "emo" way.

The nWoD rules system is vastly improved, but damn it, I miss my fluff

This, too. Good rules are a dime a dozen, but good fluff is a rarity.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And yes, you can play all of them in an "emo" way, but then you can play everything in an "emo" way.

I challenge you to play Emo Monopoly!

This, too. Good rules are a dime a dozen, but good fluff is a rarity.

Well... I wouldn't go that far. Good rules can be hard to find for a given set of fluff; but still, few people are moved to passionate displays by a well-crafted rules set while a good backstory can inspire epics.

[comicshorse]

I challenge you to play Emo Monopoly!

If you think that you've never played it with my nephew

[Kurald Galain]

I challenge you to play Emo Monopoly!

Emonopoly! With such great Chance cards as "you decide existence is pointless and burn $1000 of your cash", or "you spend the night writing awful poetry, skip your next turn"!

Well... I wouldn't go that far. Good rules can be hard to find for a given set of fluff; but still, few people are moved to passionate displays by a well-crafted rules set while a good backstory can inspire epics.

Yes. What I meant to say is that good fluff contributes much more to an RPG session than good rules. Unlike certain message boards, most games aren't focused on finding the most creative loopholes

[Psyx]

I challenge you to play Emo Monopoly!

There's no point buying anything, I'll only get in debt, and I'd just be a conformist hypocrite if I did so. I'm just going to land on 'chance' as many times as I can so I might win second prize in a beauty contest, and the world will finally appreciate my worth.

Only Andrew Eldrich/Trent Reznor/Marilyn Manson/Bullet for my Valantine* know my pain.



*Delete as appropriate to your generation

[Comet]

I'm a massive fan of nWoD. It just seems a lot neater and less bloated than the old game in its final days. Really, oWoD and its metaplot were so messed up by the time armageddon came around I was absolutely relieved to hear they were finally ending it. I'm not a huge fan of metaplots in general, just give me the world and some options/examples on what kind of stories I can tell in that world.

The rules are a lot smoother, too, which is always a plus for me. Really simple, easy to modify and easy to get the hang of for a new player.

Some thoughts on the different splats as compared to the old ones:

Spoiler

Show

Core nWoD: I love playing mortals. It's like Call of Cthulhu without the name, you can do pretty much anything with it. It also has some great expansion books. Second Sight is pretty much one of the best things ever, both mechanically and as a source for ideas.

Vampire: the Requiem - No more metaplot, no more ancient vampires throwing mountains around (hyperbole, I know). A lot of different factions instead of just two large ones with smaller subsections. And the Convenants are each pretty damn cool. Bloodlines are a bunch of boring-ness, though. I never bothered with them, the five clans were enough as they were, with the exception of some quirkier villains who got appropriately weird bloodlines to go with their alien nature.

Werewolf: the Forsaken - A massive step up from Apocalypse. Everything feels more personal, the battles more meaningful. The myths and history are awesome, as well as the spirit world and all the crazy dynamics you can have there, not to mention the battle against the Pure. Also, Shadows of the UK is a great source book that really puts a new spin on the original Forsaken.

Mage: the Awakening - Haven't played much of this, because the magic mechanics are pretty much impossible to use meaningfully unless every player has their own damn book from which to look up stuff and plan ahead. Still, on the whole it feels a bit more tidy than Ascension, even though I miss some of the more outrageous/fantastical elements.

Promethean: the Created - Now here's something new and exciting. Epic, personal journeys full of both crushing fatalism and optimistic rebellion against impossible odds. Not much good for very long campaigns, but for a short, intense series of adventures it doesn't get much better than this.

Changeling: the Lost - Good, gritty fantasy that has a lot of potential for exploring all those exciting tales we grew up reading about. Weird spells, twisting mazes, ugly witches, clever goblins, all that good stuff.

Hunter: the Vigil - Take Hunter: the Reckoning and tone down all the ridiculous superman stuff. Hunter is finally about Mankind facing against the darkness.

Geist: the Sin-Eaters - Haven't played this one yet.

[Ruinix]

nWoD born as a respond to the crys of the players, just like those awful changes in the MMOs wich usually shater the old school players from the newcommers, in the old days of 2nd edition of WoD some players cry for the lack of control or mostly the lack of abuse of their powers, so that is why nWoD born.

nWoD is preaty much what WoW did to the occidental MMOs. yes is fun some times, but lack of the mature scope as use to be.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have had the fun of playing NWoD mages with a bunch of engineers. Fun lot and though the game takes some reading to get all the powers down, you can do a lot with it. Just look up and use rotes for your staple spells and you are good to go. Otherwise it is just Gnosis + Path vs a effect dificulty. Don't worry to much about individual effects you can do, but rather the power limits of your dot levels. It works much better that way.

No other game have I found RAW means for your characters to talk to NPC's in the past, throw a tree at a car, and use C4 as a melee weapon. It can get silly, but a mage with a bit of prep time is a powerful force.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No other game have I found RAW means for your characters to talk to NPC's in the past, throw a tree at a car, and use C4 as a melee weapon.

You should check out oWoD Mage

EDIT: For example, my favorite anti-vampire rote from oWoD was "Convert Pants to Fire" (Forces 3 / Matter 2)

[Solarn]

Ironic considering that Changeling is the game I think improved the most in nWoD going from teeth grindingly twee to a world where we see why fairy tales were meant to scare the hell out of kids.

Oh, make no mistake, the new Changeling is fantastic, it's just way too bleak for me, bleaker than even Wraith has ever been and I think Dreaming could have been salvaged as it was. But we got Geist instead, so I'm not complaining too much.

That statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The entire mood, aim, and setting is very different between the old Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage games. The first chapter of each elaborates on this.

It was the intention, yes, but it quickly got deprecated in the sea of all-consuming "goff" that White Wolf drowned their works in. I can't even remember a Werewolf rulebook after the core books that wasn't geared for inter-tribe politicking with a backdrop of losing horribly to the Wyrm with only ever managing minor victories. Mage was the most "different" of all the games, but even it got farther removed from its original tone towards bleak hopelessness with every book.

{Scrubbed}

[Aron Times]

With all this talk about the nWoD being full of win, is anyone planning on running a game? I want to roleplay a Ventrue whose virtue and vice are Justice/Sloth; he mind controls people into fighting crime and not breaking the law. The character that I have in mind is a lot deeper than that, but it's the best description I can give with a single sentence.

[Terraoblivion]

You know i often hear people talk about how oWoD was more mature than nWoD. I'm not necessarily contesting it, though it doesn't fit with my perception of the two games. However, i have never heard anybody elaborate on why that was. It always seems to be put out as a self-evident truth that doesn't need explaining, so would any of those who hold this view be so kind as to enlighten us about the depth and maturity of oWoD? Especially oWoD outside Mage, since i have heard explanations on that part.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You know i often hear people talk about how oWoD was more mature than nWoD. I'm not necessarily contesting it, though it doesn't fit with my perception of the two games. However, i have never heard anybody elaborate on why that was. It always seems to be put out as a self-evident truth that doesn't need explaining, so would any of those who hold this view be so kind as to enlighten us about the depth and maturity of oWoD? Especially oWoD outside Mage, since i have heard explanations on that part.

Much like versimilitude, "maturity" is a concept applied to games you like and its absence is used to condemn games you dislike

Personally, though, I'd like to hear the arguments of "maturity" you've heard about Mage vis a vis oWoD v. nWoD. I've never actually heard the "maturity" argument applied in this way before.

[Solarn]

You know i often hear people talk about how oWoD was more mature than nWoD. I'm not necessarily contesting it, though it doesn't fit with my perception of the two games. However, i have never heard anybody elaborate on why that was. It always seems to be put out as a self-evident truth that doesn't need explaining, so would any of those who hold this view be so kind as to enlighten us about the depth and maturity of oWoD? Especially oWoD outside Mage, since i have heard explanations on that part.

oWoD was much more brooding, dark, hopeless and tragic. You know, the kinds of things teenagers think are mature. Changeling was just about the only oWoD game that I don't remember being about the inevitable end of the world as we know it and I might simply be forgetting something. Meanwhile, nWoD has maybe one apocalypse scenario (two if you squint really hard) and neither is even close to happening. This is disturbingly close to happiness and as we all know, only immature and childish people are ever happy.

I want to roleplay a Ventrue whose virtue and vice are Justice/Sloth; he mind controls people into fighting crime and not breaking the law.

That is a glorious idea.

[Terraoblivion]

Well, i'll admit that i'm largely stretching the arguments in favor of Ascension to imply that those making them considers it a more mature game than Awakening. In general it just is that people actually provide reasons why they think that Ascension was a better written more interesting game than Awakening.

It is more that i have never really heard anybody elaborate on why they prefer oWoD, with the exception of Mage: The Awakening, over nWoD except in vague terms like saying it was more mature or deeper. The closest was Satyr writing a ten page essay on why actively rolling defense was vital for the player to feel involved and important and i somehow doubt anybody else share that view. It also the doesn't touch on the fluff in any meaningful way.

And no offense, Solarn, but i'm ultimately more interested in hearing people who prefer oWoD explain it themselves.

[Solarn]

Well, i'll admit that i'm largely stretching the arguments in favor of Ascension to imply that those making them considers it a more mature game than Awakening. In general it just is that people actually provide reasons why they think that Ascension was a better written more interesting game than Awakening.

It is more that i have never really heard anybody elaborate on why they prefer oWoD, with the exception of Mage: The Awakening, over nWoD except in vague terms like saying it was more mature or deeper. The closest was Satyr writing a ten page essay on why actively rolling defense was vital for the player to feel involved and important and i somehow doubt anybody else share that view. It also the doesn't touch on the fluff in any meaningful way.

To be honest, I can see where someone would be coming from saying that old Mage is more mature than the new one. Ascension originally had very strong themes of self-exploration and discussion on the nature of humanity and reality and held on to them longer than any other oWoD title did to their own themes. It also had no clear cut heroes and villains like other oWoD titles did, as both factions were portrayed from their own viewpoint as the ones with the right idea and from the other's viewpoint as dangerous lunatics.

In comparison, Awakening has a clear distinction between the good guys and the bad guys and replaced self-exploration and reality-warping with generic supernatural magic.

[Aron Times]

GENTLEMEN.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9535726

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, i'll admit that i'm largely stretching the arguments in favor of Ascension to imply that those making them considers it a more mature game than Awakening. In general it just is that people actually provide reasons why they think that Ascension was a better written more interesting game than Awakening.

Fair enough

My 2 tass on the matter

Spoiler

Show

oWoD Mage is the easy case - the mechanics were tied to the fluff and moving from "if I believe it, I can make it true" to "space Atlantis!" is a bit jarring.

oWoD Vampire fluff - depending on how you prune it - gave you a compelling shadow society where plans begun millenia ago were only now coming to fruition. As I understand nWoD Vampire, the timeline of plots has been shortened tremendously and there isn't much of a mystery of what's going on at any given time. No more Antedelluvian imposters; no more ancient grudges being fought with pawns; and no more dominate-or-be-dominated politicing.

The scope of nWoD Vampire just seems so... pedestrian in comparison.

Now, full disclosure - I only flipped through the nWoD Vampire book and saw basically "dumbing down" of the Clans. Some had been merged into bland amalgamations of their parent clans while others just seemed to disappear. From reading posters who are fans of nWoD it sounds like most of the intrigue is gone as well - it's an action game, not a plotting game. I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but so far that's how it looks to me.

Oh, and I never cared for Werewolf. In my experience, oWoD Werewolf quickly resulting in silly powergaming and extremely linear play (i.e. why roll a non-combatant when it is so easy to fight); the oWoD mechanics just weren't designed to support the sort of hack-and-slash gameplay that Werewolf seemed to be designed for.

[WalkingTarget]

oWoD was much more brooding, dark, hopeless and tragic. You know, the kinds of things teenagers think are mature. Changeling was just about the only oWoD game that I don't remember being about the inevitable end of the world as we know it and I might simply be forgetting something. Meanwhile, nWoD has maybe one apocalypse scenario (two if you squint really hard) and neither is even close to happening. This is disturbingly close to happiness and as we all know, only immature and childish people are ever happy.

That is a glorious idea.

Not to say that Changling couldn't be as brooding as the rest. The most soul-crushingly dark game I've ever been involved in was a Changeling: The Dreaming campaign (and I'm a fan of Call of Cthulhu).

C:tD wasn't about the end of the world per se, but one of the major themes available is the encroaching banality of existence and the destruction of imagination and wonder. Inject that theme into a game where the PCs are transitioning from childhood to adolescence and it can get really depressing.

[Aron Times]

To Oracle_Hunter:

Some RPGs are fun to read, while some are fun to play. They aren't mutually exclusive. This is how I see these four systems, and I won't claim to be objective, so take it with a grain of salt.

1. D&D 3.5 is quite fun to read, with all its detailed writeups of various stuff, but your mileage may vary on whether it's fun to play. The latter often depends on how well your character contributes the party, which can be a bit hard when all you can do are full attack (flurry of misses) and fail on skill checks. I can roleplay a monk well, but I can also roleplay a sorcerer (my favorite class) well and actually have the power to back it up.

2. D&D 4e is fun to play, but it doesn't look like it when you read it. Its fluff is not as detailed as in previous editions, so if you're used to long, detailed descriptions of monsters, powers, and magic items, you will be sorely disappointed. 4e is light on fluff (or depending on your point of view, bland), providing only short flavor text for most things, leaving the rest up to the DM's and the players' imaginations.

3. The oWoD was a LOT of fun to read, but had horrible mechanics. It took forever to resolve even short fights that my friends and I would do anything to avoid them. A simple fight between the coterie (made of low generation vampires) and some mortal gangsters, intended to be a cakewalk, took several hours to resolve.

4. The nWoD strikes a good balance between fluff and crunch. The game is more balanced and it takes much shorter to adjudicate combat and other dice-heavy aspects of the game. It's also an interesting read, though not as detailed as the oWoD.

What I like best about the system is that there is an actual reward to being a good guy. Maintaining a high Humanity/Harmony/Synergy/Wisdom/Clarity/Morality has the benefit of keeping your character sane. Characters gain derangements (which have actual penalties to stats instead of just being a roleplaying quirk) as they lose their version of Morality, and being a good guy means not suffering through all the penalties imposed by derangements.

This is how I see D&D 3.5, D&D 4e, the oWoD, and the nWoD. What do you think?

[Lord_Gareth]

Honestly, my biggest issue with oWoD is that White Wolf billed me a horror game and delivered an epic. Not bad in and of itself, but that's not what I paid money for, damnit.

Vampire Plotting

Spoiler

Show

Honestly, I like nWoD plotting. It's more personal. Every oWoD vampire game ended up with an inevitable feeling of anything I (or the other players) did being utterly meaningless except as entertainment for beings that considered us to be amusements. Very existential, highly frustrating. How are players supposed to connect emotionally to an indomitable enemy with millions of years doing nothing but prepping to kick our ass?

nWoD plotting is much more local, yes, but it's also more personal. Vendettas are executed. Friendships and alliances are dissolved or held onto in great rushes of blood or pulse-pounding trials before the Prince. In fact, plotting rather than confrontation has become much more important, since vampires aren't only much more vulnerable, there's less of them running around. Breaching the Masquerade isn't just the threat of extinction, it's the absolute, horrific reality thereof. Plots to discredit your foe or to frame them for violating the Traditions are MUCH better than risking your unlife trying to tango with them face to face.

In my opinion, the clans haven't been dumbed down; they've been cut down to the ones that actually deserve to be clans. The Brujah have been reinvented entirely as the Daeva (the bloodline that inherited their name still have the emphasis on wrath), several clans became the Mehkt, the Ventrue, Nosferatu, and Gangrel all survived. Others with more limited scopes and narrower themes (the Toreador, the Tremere, the Setites) have become bloodlines - sub-clans - as they always should have been. There was no need for such narrow character concepts to be clans unto themselves, and don't even GET ME STARTED on the sheer stupidity of a clan as an autonomous political entity.

Needless to say, I prefer nWoD vampire to oWoD, and I spent six years playing the latter.

[Oracle_Hunter]

As a decorated veteran of the latest Edition Warz, I'm not touching 3.5 v. 4

4. The nWoD strikes a good balance between fluff and crunch. The game is more balanced and it takes much shorter to adjudicate combat and other dice-heavy aspects of the game. It's also an interesting read, though not as detailed as the oWoD.

Reading-wise, it is interesting (at least, the anecdotes in the Core nWoD book were) but I found the fluff in nWoD Mage & Vampire lacking - as far as I read it, anyhow. The reasons for that I've stated above.

I still find the mechanics are far too "heavy" for an ostensibly Storytelling-focused game. Look at them closely and you'll see they share a lot in common with SR4 - hardly a Storytelling system. In particular, combat needs to be massively scaled back: there is no reason for attack & defense to be as complicated as it is.

Full Disclosure - I'm intimately familiar with this aspect as I am using them as an aspect of a revival of oWoD Mage (working title: "Mage Prime") I'm working on. I'm using Bliss Stage for another aspect, and using something novel for the third part

What I like best about the system is that there is an actual reward to being a good guy. Maintaining a high Humanity/Harmony/Synergy/Wisdom/Clarity/Morality has the benefit of keeping your character sane. Characters gain derangements (which have actual penalties to stats instead of just being a roleplaying quirk) as they lose their version of Morality, and being a good guy means not suffering through all the penalties imposed by derangements.

You mean like the Humanity System in oWoD Vampire?

Anyhoo, I don't like the way nWoD (or oWoD) tries to mechanize RPing. It's clunky at best and perverse at worst

It's actually part of the reason I'm using Bliss Stage rules in my game.

[Lord_Gareth]

Umm, Oracle? Attack roll equals Attribute + Skill + Damage + any bonuses - Defense + Armor. Ta da. Simple.