oWoD vs. nWoD, and White Wolf in general

[Lost Demiurge]

I'ma just drop in and say that Changeling the Lost is about the coolest game evar.

I've played VtM a lot more than VtR, and I'm pretty sure that biases me unfairly :p From what I've read I like them both

I agree with you on all points. :)

Got a preference for NWoD, but I'll happily play almost any WoD game that's put in front of me so long as the GM and group are good.

[Quincunx]

Points conceded on unreliable narration not being a great foundation of a game, Terraoblivion, especially if you're treating the metaplot as being as important as the mechanics, which most of you seem to be. I'll still disagree on the significance of a final judgment in V:tM though, unless you were playing a Gehenna redemption plot, and even then I don't remember explicit mechanics for breaking the blood curse--it was only in the End Times (Wormwood I think it was, the small-scale scenario that wasn't based on global plots going kablooey) when the final judgment came looking for you, like it or not. Now, it seems, in V:tR there's no way of not checking oneself constantly against the finality of it all and I do not mean the finality of the Beast.

. . .say, how are they handling frenzy checks nowadays?

[Kish]

They say it is different. But the only major event that didn't involve supernatural beings as the ultimate instigators was the second world war and even that was a retcon, as originally Himmler was a vampire.

While I am in no way defending the portrayal of Himmler in Berlin By Night, I feel obligated to point out that originally Himmler became a vampire after Himmler-the-uninfluenced-by-any-supernatural-Muggle did all the things Himmler did historically (except die). World War II still lacked any significant influence by supernaturals.

[Lord_Gareth]

V:tR doesn't have any kind of extinction metaplot going down except for the fearful possibility of millions of insane vampires all rising from torpor at the same time and eating every vamp they can get their hands on, and that's played down as paranoid superstition, really. There's still the possibility of Golconda, if a Storyteller wants to approve it, and who knows, the Order of the Dragon may be correct about Transcendance.

There are three kinds of Frenzy checks these days, same as before. Wassail (literally translated - "Drink hail!") is hunger frenzy, and is technically checked against every time a vampire feeds (though they encourage STs to skip that step if the vamp is near-full) or when a starving vampire scents or sees blood. (Resolve + Composure) +/- Circumstance modifiers (like being starving or in Elysium) vs. a standard difficulty of one, increased for more intense stimuli. Rotschrek (fear frenzy) triggers off of sunlight or fire, and potentially triggers off of aggravated damage, phobias, or other extremely fearful stimuli; difficulty is dependant on how injured you are and the strength of the stimulus. Rage frenzy is more or less unchanged.

There's a new aspect to Frenzy these days - the Predator's Taint. When two vampires meet for the first time, the one with more potent blood checks vs. rage frenzy while the weaker one checks vs. rotschrek as their Beasts raise hackles over territory. While the feeling happens every time two vampires see each other, after the first initial meeting, they can control these urges. The Predator's Taint is the biggest reason vampires cannot trust non-bonded subordinates or partners; they are simply incapable of not feeling dread, unease, or irritation.

[The Glyphstone]

I'ma just drop in and say that Changeling the Lost is about the coolest game evar.

I've played VtM a lot more than VtR, and I'm pretty sure that biases me unfairly :p From what I've read I like them both

I agree with you on all points. :)

Got a preference for NWoD, but I'll happily play almost any WoD game that's put in front of me so long as the GM and group are good.

Yo dawg, I'm really happy for you, and imma let you finish that Changeling game, but Geist: The Sin Eaters is simply the best NWoD game of all time. Of all time!

[Lord_Gareth]

Yo dawg, I'm really happy for you, and imma let you finish that Changeling game, but Geist: The Sin Eaters is simply the best NWoD game of all time. Of all time!

I've heard the Geist was good and I'm certainly giddy to read it. Can you elaborate on the fluff any? The Trope page is like a filthy tease and it won't put out!

[hiryuu]

I've heard the Geist was good and I'm certainly giddy to read it. Can you elaborate on the fluff any? The Trope page is like a filthy tease and it won't put out!

The fluff will vary from krewe to krewe, since each krewe is supposed to (OOC) put out a religion/mythology which each member of the krewe is granted (IC) as a vision, the geists revealing things about themselves they kept hidden. One krewe says geists are Loa and adheres to the Christian mythos, another claims their geists are literal angels but has a mythos that resembles Gilgamesh's epic... and when the two meet, they have... trouble.

Our krewe, for example, believes our geists are the manifestations of the Jungian archetypes of Child, Trickster, Hero, and Mother, and that all stories are shadow plays of the true beginning of time, and the Underworld was created by the deathlords as a place to remove suffering and take endless bodies away from the people, giving the Mother a divine mandate to spread sickness among the elderly, and that monsters are created by this suffering, to spread more suffering, creating an endless circle. The spiral towards oblivion must be maintained, for it removes suffering, and monsters and people that work the spiral rather than the circle are to be left alone. We've got some Hunter crossover happening with our krewe and allies.

We share our town with another krewe who believes that they are the reapers of the dying, meant to prevent ghosts from appearing, helping people come to terms with their death before they die, and another who's very rave club voodoo.

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed, Geist directly encourages people to invent their own fluff, to a degree, especially with its equivalent of powers/disciplines/arcana being almost as varied as you can get without Mage-style freeformery.

The "default" fluff is pretty simple, as on the Tropes page. You died. You met a ghostly entity, who said "I'll bring you back if you let me hitch a ride". Now you're the Ghost Whisperer meets Ghostbusters meets Amoral Ghostwriter for the most part, though there's plenty of room for selfishness and goofing off - one of the Archetypes (Celebrants, specifically) is specifically devoted to the idea of "eat, drink, and be merry, cause tomorrow you might die. Or the day after that. Or next week. So party on, dude!" Another's all about using your Geist's abilities to benefit yourself, the Bonepicker Archetype - offering to take a "haunted" car off a rich banker's hands for him, for instance.

[Terraoblivion]

The metaplot, or rather the different approaches to fluff with the metaplot being one of the two, is the primary thing distinguishing VtM from VtR, so it gains relatively greater significance when discussing the differences between the games. Essentially most fluff in VtM describes events, plans and individuals. There are of course exceptions, but that is the general trend in what is described in VtM sourcebooks apart from mechanics. VtR describes cultural and psychological traits relating to various clans, covenants or other aspects of vampiric society, always providing a variety of options and establishing a continuum within the group. There are some events described, the Camarilla of ancient Rome, the legend of the Invictus king and the formation of the Carthian Movement for example, but they take a secondary position to details of what vampiric society is like today.

So the reason i spend so much energy focusing on the metaplot is simply that i consider it the thing to discuss the merits of when comparing the two games. The only other change i care about to any significant degree is splitting the social and metaphysical aspects of clans into two different concepts, because it sets you more free as a player to create your own character. That both of those groups are also broader and less rigid than most of the old clans helps too.

[Yuki Akuma]

Indeed, Geist directly encourages people to invent their own fluff, to a degree, especially with its equivalent of powers/disciplines/arcana being almost as varied as you can get without Mage-style freeformery.

To be elaborate, Sin-Eater powers are separated into seven Manifestations, each of which must be unlocked with a metaphysical 'Key' to function, which colours its abilities wildly. The Rage Manifestation, for instance, can set people alight with the Pyre-Flame Key, or damage machines with the Industrial Key, or cause mental instability with the Passion Key.

Manifestations are rated from one to five dots, like most abilities in WoD games. There are ten Keys and seven Manifestations - meaning that, in effect, you have seventy five-dot power sets to play around with.

Geist: the Sin-Eaters is awesome and more people need to play it.

[Project_Mayhem]

As opposed to Mages who have ∞ or so powers to play with

[Yuki Akuma]

As opposed to Mages who have ∞ or so powers to play with

Not really? There's only so much thematics you can apply to each Arcanun - and not every Mage can learn every one.

In fact, it's utterly impossible for a Mage to get more than four Arcana to sixth level, ever. Even at Gnosis 10. So a single Mage can't do anything - just a large subset of anything.

[Project_Mayhem]

Any Arcana can mix with any combination of any other

And theoretically any mage can master all 10 arcana. It's just hard.

However, even with 6-8 dots in arcana, the level our last game was, there are almost endless spell ideas if you're creative

[The Glyphstone]

Any Arcana can mix with any combination of any other

And theoretically any mage can master all 10 arcana. It's just hard.

However, even with 6-8 dots in arcana, the level our last game was, there are almost endless spell ideas if you're creative

As opposed to Mages who have ∞ or so powers to play with

I did mention that Geist is as varied as you can get without Mage-style freeformery.

Plus, there's something delightfully screwy about a Morality system that dings you for accidental manslaughter, but not deliberate premediated murder.

[Lord_Gareth]

Perhaps because Geists have an extended view on death that may justify certain murders? I mean, they know what goes down afterwards!

[Project_Mayhem]

Awww, but the freeform is coool

And yes, I liked Geist's morality. The less attached to normal human morality the better

For my changeling game, I completely divorced the moral aspect from clarity. It purely measures how well you can distinguish between the different worlds

[Lord_Gareth]

Awww, but the freeform is coool

And yes, I liked Geist's morality. The less attached to normal human morality the better

For my changeling game, I completely divorced the moral aspect from clarity. It purely measures how well you can distinguish between the different worlds

Read Rites of Spring: it breaks down WHY each Clarity Breaking Point isn't a moral, but rather a psychological one.

Because even the core book mentions that it doesn't actually measure morality.

[Yuki Akuma]

And theoretically any mage can master all 10 arcana. It's just hard.

Nope! You can master eight, and even then it requires Gnosis 10. You can learn all ten, but the maximum for the last two you learn is capped at 4.

But this is just splitting hairs.

[The Glyphstone]

I always found Clarity interesting because it was the only Morality system where you could lose points for things you had no choice regarding. Having your house wrecked by a tornado/hurricane/fire is just as morality-damaging as impulsively murdering someone in a fit of passion. Losing your job is as bad as taking LSD or pickpocketing someone.

[Project_Mayhem]

It's still, in my mind, too linked to conventional morality. My version is mostly the same, except crimes of passion are treated more leniently than cold premeditated acts. Cause passion is human.

Also property damage is not so much of an issue. I find WoD tends to overrate that.

[Project_Mayhem]

Nope! You can master eight, and even then it requires Gnosis 10. You can learn all ten, but the maximum for the last two you learn is capped at 4.

But this is just splitting hairs.

checks book ...

oops.

Well that's still a lot :p

Especially if you extrapolate to archmage level. Although that's strictly non canon

[Lord_Gareth]

It's still, in my mind, too linked to conventional morality. My version is mostly the same, except crimes of passion are treated more leniently than cold premeditated acts. Cause passion is human.

Also property damage is not so much of an issue. I find WoD tends to overrate that.

That's the thing - passion is sort-of human, but what it REALLY is is True Fae. Have you seen their Ruled by Passion feature? Giving into one's whims over one's word or intent is the ESSENCE of fae activity, which is damaging to Clarity.

[The Glyphstone]

It's still, in my mind, too linked to conventional morality. My version is mostly the same, except crimes of passion are treated more leniently than cold premeditated acts. Cause passion is human.

Also property damage is not so much of an issue. I find WoD tends to overrate that.

Yeah, but that wasn't my point so much as the bit about how of all the morality charts, it was the only one where events completely outside your control could influence your score. I just found it unusual and somewhat interesting.

[Yuki Akuma]

checks book ...

oops.

Well that's still a lot :p

Especially if you extrapolate to archmage level. Although that's strictly non canon

Why is is that Mages, who specifically say "I can do anything." in cool gold text in the setting fluff, can't learn all of their supernatural powers?

But everyone else can. Any vampire could theoretically learn every Discipline, a werewolf could receive every Gift, a Promethean could perform every Transmutation...

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm pretty sure that with enough Arcana combinations and preparation, a powerful-enough mage CAN do anything. It's just more roundabout than, say, Matter might do it.

Also, mages are broken enough. Don't break them more. Please.

EDIT: RAW states that only the bloodline that practices it can learn a unique bloodline discipline, though this is house-ruled away often.

[Project_Mayhem]

@ The Glyphstone: Yeah sorry, I was responding to Lord Gareth's point. I agree entirely with the coolness of that.

My campaign will kick of with the death of an npc motely member, so degen roles from the start. What fun!

@ Lord Gareth: ... I might be remembering my notes wrong. Its still up in the air anyway. I definitely feel that it has too much morality in though. Why should, say, stealing affect clarity if you did it loads anyway?

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm pretty sure that with enough Arcana combinations and preparation, a powerful-enough mage CAN do anything. It's just more roundabout than, say, Matter might do it.

Also, mages are broken enough. Don't break them more. Please.

EDIT: RAW states that only the bloodline that practices it can learn a unique bloodline discipline, though this is house-ruled away often.

Hm. Alright. I don't know Vampires that well.

I'm pretty sure it holds true for Werewovles, Prometheans and Sin-Eaters, though.

(I know even less about nWoD Changelings.)

[Lord_Gareth]

@ Lord Gareth: ... I might be remembering my notes wrong. Its still up in the air anyway. I definitely feel that it has too much morality in though. Why should, say, stealing affect clarity if you did it loads anyway?

Regardless of the actual necessity of the situation (poverty, save the world), people are told that stealing is wrong when they're growing up; that it's selfish, cruel, and never to be done. We retain traces of this as adults, though our reasoning gets more complex. Remember, regardless of our perspective on the justification of a particular act, that fact that we are justifying it rather than ignoring it remains. Faeries steal constantly and feel no guilt whatsoever. Changelings, who have such a hard time convincing themselves that they aren't like the Fae to begin with, avoid theft because it can bring up troublesome thoughts and associations, typically beginning with, Am I just like my keeper?

[The Glyphstone]

Regardless of the actual necessity of the situation (poverty, save the world), people are told that stealing is wrong when they're growing up; that it's selfish, cruel, and never to be done. We retain traces of this as adults, though our reasoning gets more complex. Remember, regardless of our perspective on the justification of a particular act, that fact that we are justifying it rather than ignoring it remains. Faeries steal constantly and feel no guilt whatsoever. Changelings, who have such a hard time convincing themselves that they aren't like the Fae to begin with, avoid theft because it can bring up troublesome thoughts and associations, typically beginning with, Am I just like my keeper?

That's why I was never really bothered by Changeling's Clarity mimicing standard morality. The chart represents their ability to distinguish reality from Arcadia and themselves from the True Fae, and committing acts that a human would find reprehensible can trigger them to wonder how human they themselves really are.

[Lord_Gareth]

Especially since humans justify or condemn things and the Fae either don't, or do so in black-and-white terms befitting their simplistic maturity levels and story-like origins. A human who steals to feed himself reasons, in one way or another, "Stealing IS wrong, BUT I am starving, SO it's okay." A faerie just steals.