[3.P] We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, those fort save DC spells work awesome on fighter builds of even level/HD.

/sarcasm

What about the Will save spells?

[Godless_Paladin]

The statement was made with respect to the cleric out-fighting the fighter not just beating him. I think the beating him part should probably be taken as a given.

But out-fighting the Fighter in melee combat and beating him in personal combat are effectively the same thing. The Cleric makes a better melee fighter because he can function in a wider variety of ways and totally deal with things like people who fly or are ethereal. The fact that you can just summon a new weapon to hit people with after your pretty sword gets sundered means something.

Killing things in combat is one role. And the Fighter isn't even good at that one (he has serious trouble dealing with a great number of threats. Just see the "how do I challenge the Crusader" thread, then consider how much worse it is for the Fighter). Others include things like travel, restoration, control, negotiation, information gathering, crafting, disarming traps, and so forth. The Fighter has basically no ability to affect the plot other than killing things and it has some very serious difficulty in even that extremely limited role. Outside of combat it's even worse, and he just has to sit out while the rest of the party affects the plot.

[Yuki Akuma]

And the Cleric is probably wearing gauntlets anyway, so... Smack away?

[Oracle_Hunter]

GP is a medium of exchange, not storage. If there's no loss in the transition back and forth, you should convert it to XP at the first available opportunity, then convert it back prior to spending. The process of conversion becomes relevant at this point, but unfortunately, that's not given. The closest thing Im aware of are the web supplement spells and the like to allow others to transfer xp for crafting purposes. Normally, XP isn't so directly referenced in spell effects, just in costs.

Technically, any medium of exchange is also a medium of storage: the storage of value.

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The classic example is the apple. An apple is valuable now, but loses its value as it rots. Even if you trade the apple for something that has value now (e.g. clothing, rope) that object will eventually lose its value as it decays. Here, the sort of value we're talking about is "use value" - an object can be considered "valuable" to extent that you can use it to an important end (i.e. survival).

Now, if you trade that apple for a gold coin, you have traded something with "use value" (i.e. a fresh apple) for something with "trade value." At any point in the future, you can trade that gold coin for a fresh apple (discounting inflation and variable pricing ATM). "Trade value" allows you to consider an object as "valuable" to the extent that it can be traded for other goods that have "use value."

Gold typically is used as currency because it is highly resistant to decay and, in non-electric societies, has very low "use value." The fact that it is easy to shape into coins and relatively scarce made it a good natural choice for being an item of high "trade value."

Simply put, there is no reason to use gold as a medium of exchange when it has such a high "use value."

[Goudaa]

A few questions for you:
a) What's preventing the cleric from taking feats similar to those of the fighter? The cleric, if choices are made well, can make very good use of his feats, even if he's getting far fewer of them. I would like to instead pose that the fighter has the larger variety of feats, but both have access to mostly the same feats.

b) How does the disarm-oriented fighter deal with the cleric using gauntlets/spiked gauntlets? Or deal with the cleric's buffs improving their attack roll (which already puts them at an advantage on the disarm check)? Or deal with anyone spending the 8gp to get locked gauntlets? Sundering has similar issues with the contested attack roll, as well as the issue of greater HP/hardness on magical equipment. (additionally, why assume the cleric has a shield? this is a minor point, I admit, but still worth noting.)

c) How does disarming the cleric deal with the cleric's buffs? It will get him to drop his weapon, but most buffs won't be targeting the weapon aside from (greater) magic weapon.

And as a side note, I can't really see the rationale behind calling this a "munchkin cleric". It's using spells for the purpose they were written for, I don't see anything munchkin-y involved there.

Edit: wow, ninjas abound

A) - agreed - they do have similiar access, but one has more selections, giving on averages more chance to the fighter taking it and the cleric not was my point.

B) - I hear your point and respectfully ask you to understand your stance is that the cleric is already fully buffed and not doing it in the combat with the fighter...which I agree happens in some circumstances but not always the case.

In regards to locked guantlets - you sunder it. The 8gp item people like to believe is all that awesome, truly isn't imho. Now if it's enchanted and special metal, that's a diff story but you used the 8gp variety.

C) If the cleric has no weapon to deal out his upgraded dmg - did he take unarmed strike in your mind? How is he going to affect the fighter now?

I apologize if the word "munchkin" wasn't fitting here, and I agree, the spells are used to their intention. No offense was meant. I play and have played with peeps that make a cleric and focus everything around damage output through spells + a magic weapon and not a versatile healing/support role which I view as min-maxing or "munchkin" cleric. I'll redact the word if you wish =)

PS: Just in case this was missed, i'm not saying the fighter will always win - i'm merely showing examples of how a fighter CAN win to refute the belief the cleric will ALWAYS win...which I cannot agree with. Too many variables and various feat selections for an intelligent player to have NO chance.

Yes I agree cleric is at an advantage and yes I agree it's probably the most versatile class next to wizard =)

[Il_Vec]

Yes, those fort save DC spells work awesome on fighter builds of even level/HD.

/sarcasm

Bestow curse is will save.

Fighter Fort = roll + (Level/2 round down) + 2 + Con (secondary attribute)
Cleric DC = 10 + Level + Wis (primary attribute)

Just throwing the info out there.

[Yuki Akuma]

Most suits of armour a cleric would be wearing come with gauntlets. Gauntlets obviate the -4 penalty to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes.

...Oh hey, you did know you can simply take a -4 penalty to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes, right?

Sure, it provokes an AoO, but who cares?

Edit: ... Dippable? Cleric isn't dippable at all.

[Godless_Paladin]

Goudaa, seriously, your argument makes no sense.

The fact that you can disarm a cleric doesn't matter. The fact that he has a contingency of some kind when hitting things with a sword fails him actually makes him a better character archetype for hitting things with a sword.

[Goudaa]

Bestow curse is will save.

Fighter Fort = roll + (Level/2 round down) + 2 + Con (secondary attribute)
Cleric DC = 10 + Level + Wis (primary attribute)

Just throwing the info out there.

Highlighted example in the post was blindness/deafness a 2nd level spell sir.

Just throwing the info out there =)

[Goudaa]

Goudaa, seriously, your argument makes no sense.

The fact that you can disarm a cleric doesn't matter. The fact that he has a contingency of some kind when hitting things with a sword fails him actually makes him a better character archetype for hitting things with a sword. No, really.

Ok. I agree cleric is more versatile overall...i've said that already - but you all feel a cleric will ALWAYS win. I don't.

[Godless_Paladin]

You don't have to always win to be better.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ok. I agree cleric is more versatile overall...i've said that already - but you all feel a cleric will ALWAYS win. I don't.

If they're the same level, with the same amount of optimisation, yes he will.

Magic is Just That Good.

Okay so the Fighter could roll nothing but 20s and the Cleric nothing but 1s but that has nothing to do with anything.

[Il_Vec]

Highlighted example in the post was blindness/deafness a 2nd level spell sir.

Just throwing the info out there =)

Actually it is cleric 3.

So if you follow my formula, at level 5, the earliest that can happen, it will be DC 13 + Wis against + 4 + Con.
My point being that even the Fort save, suposedly one of the fighter's forte, is still going to fail 45% of the rolls.

Fighters can use inteligence and resources when choosing feats. Clerics can do that everyday when praying for spells.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If they're the same level, with the same amount of optimisation, yes he will.

Magic is Just That Good.

Okay so the Fighter could roll nothing but 20s and the Cleric nothing but 1s but that has nothing to do with anything.

Eh, LV2 Cleric vs. LV2 Fighter - would the Cleric still win 95% of the time?

[Godless_Paladin]

Fighters can use inteligence and resources when choosing feats. Clerics can do that everyday when praying for spells.

This is a big thing.

Fighters have next to zero versatility in play. They have, at best, versatility in build. Once the actual session has started, the poor Fighter has very few choices to make. It's sad and boring.

[Goudaa]

You don't have to always win to be better.

Agreed...and where did I ever say the cleric isn't the better class?

Nowhere, in fact I stated the cleric IS better...

All I was trying to refute is the view that cleric will ALWAYS WIN.

I disagree, i've seen the cleric fail, especially when they didn't expect something silly like a failed disarm roll from a fighter part of a full round that smoked them.

People do die in a 1 round of combat at times =)

[Oracle_Hunter]

All I was trying to refute is the view that cleric will ALWAYS WIN.

"Always" is a silly standard. 95% of the time is sufficiently high.

[Il_Vec]

Lvl 2 cleric vs lvl 2 fighter:

Fighter has 1 BAB, on average 2 HP, 2 feats and a better weapon.

Cleric has:

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Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes -2 on attack rolls, saves, and checks.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

Maybe the fighter can win. If he is smart.

[Godless_Paladin]

Who, exactly, do you think holds the position that clerics literally always win?

"Always" is a silly standard. 95% of the time is sufficiently high.

[Yuki Akuma]

Eh, LV2 Cleric vs. LV2 Fighter - would the Cleric still win 95% of the time?

Let's see... a smart Cleric who buffs entirely for straight combat has the same attack bonus, higher AC and self-healing capabilities.

Or he can Cause Fear and then spam touch attacks.

Of course, at level 2, anything can die in one lucky hit, so it's not the best level to be comparing anything...

[Goudaa]

Who, exactly, do you think holds the position that clerics literally always win?

Ummm reading through this thread quite a few peeps have expressed that =)

[Tyndmyr]

A) - agreed - they do have similiar access, but one has more selections, giving on averages more chance to the fighter taking it and the cleric not was my point.

B) - I hear your point and respectfully ask you to understand your stance is that the cleric is already fully buffed and not doing it in the combat with the fighter...which I agree happens in some circumstances but not always the case.

I will assume that 24 hr and hr/lvl duration buffs are always up. I will assume that 10min/lvl buffs are almost invariably extended, and probably subject to at least a coupla CL boosters, given the wide accessibility of them. Thus, at moderate levels, with two castings a day, they're always up. At high levels, just always up.

Shorter duration buffs may not always be up without cheese.

In regards to locked guantlets - you sunder it. The 8gp item people like to believe is all that awesome, truly isn't imho. Now if it's enchanted and special metal, that's a diff story but you used the 8gp variety.

So, now you need to close to the cleric, sunder his gauntlet, then disarm him of his weapon. In core. How do you plan to do this all in a round, and how do you plan to win init?

After all, if the cleric beats you down before you get to do your fun stuff, those abilities are not relevant.

C) If the cleric has no weapon to deal out his upgraded dmg - did he take unarmed strike in your mind? How is he going to affect the fighter now?

Feh. Spend his move action laughing at you, then cast a standard action spell that removes you from the game. Probably targetting will. The selection of such spells is significant.

Beating you down with unarmed due to his buffed leetness is probably possible, due to you wasting your first two attacks on disarming him, but that requires math and thinking. I'd take the easy way out.

[Godless_Paladin]

Ummm reading through this thread quite a few peeps have expressed that =)

Humor me. Who?

Eh, LV2 Cleric vs. LV2 Fighter - would the Cleric still win 95% of the time?

Define "vs."

I am so tired of people's arbitrary hypothetical arena deathmatches. What matters is who you want in your party more to fill a role. The Cleric fills the tank role better and handles more situations more elegantly.

Though, in a hypothetical arena deathmatch, well, the Cleric has a damn good chance with just throwing Cause Fear or something at the Fighter. But of course at level 2 any solid hit can spell doom for an individual character.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Let's see... a smart Cleric who buffs entirely for straight combat has the same attack bonus, higher AC and self-healing capabilities.

Or he can Cause Fear and then spam touch attacks.

Of course, at level 2, anything can die in one lucky hit, so it's not the best level to be comparing anything...

Of course - I'm just curious about the floor. What is the minimum level at which a Cleric will beat a Fighter in a one-on-one duel (with or without WBL) 95% of the time

Mainly because nobody seems interested about the implications of a 5 GP = 1 XP world (including the proposer)

[Goudaa]

I withdraw my stance.

[Godless_Paladin]

Ummm reading through this thread quite a few peeps have expressed that =)

Humor me. Who?

I withdraw my stance.

Heh. Well that was pretty straightforward.

[Il_Vec]

Of course - I'm just curious about the floor. What is the minimum level at which a Cleric will beat a Fighter in a one-on-one duel (with or without WBL) 95% of the time

Mainly because nobody seems interested about the implications of a 5 GP = 1 XP world (including the proposer)

Using a willsave spell and non minmaxed characters, lvl2 duel has a fighter with grand total of + 0 will save against a DC 15. 70% of the fights he will lose on the first round, if he loses init.

The cleric has numerous spells to work with, the fighter has +1 BAB, on average +3 hit points (and a higher priority on Con) and two feats.

[Tyndmyr]

Of course - I'm just curious about the floor. What is the minimum level at which a Cleric will beat a Fighter in a one-on-one duel (with or without WBL) 95% of the time

Hmm. Well, getting a single save that will pass only on a 20 should be sufficient to ensure a 95% win rate. So, if you can assure that you go first, and optimize spell DCs, that should be relatively reasonable.

I believe a dex/wis focused char(isn't there an elf variant that boosts both) with 20's in both to start with, improved init will pull off a +9 to init. A single luck feat allows you to reroll your init, so that *should* allow you to beat most fighters, most of the time.

The stats are fairly complex, but even at level 1, you should have something like a 90% chance to beat a fighter with a +0 init. Realistically, they'll probably have slightly more. However, they are also not likely to one hit kill you on their turn at level 1, so you should have multiple attempts.

I am assuming that Cause Fear is sufficient to win.

[Chen]

Hmm. Well, getting a single save that will pass only on a 20 should be sufficient to ensure a 95% win rate. So, if you can assure that you go first, and optimize spell DCs, that should be relatively reasonable.

I believe a dex/wis focused char(isn't there an elf variant that boosts both) with 20's in both to start with, improved init will pull off a +9 to init. A single luck feat allows you to reroll your init, so that *should* allow you to beat most fighters, most of the time.

The stats are fairly complex, but even at level 1, you should have something like a 90% chance to beat a fighter with a +0 init. Realistically, they'll probably have slightly more. However, they are also not likely to one hit kill you on their turn at level 1, so you should have multiple attempts.

I am assuming that Cause Fear is sufficient to win.

20 dex on a cleric? Really? I mean at this point you should be comparing it to a 20 Wis fighter which ends up making the save a 50/50. Even without that this cleric can't have much, if any, of a con bonus so its quite likely the fighter does one shot him should he hit him. And how do you have a luck feat and Improved init while being an elf (unless there's some broken ass elf out there who gives an extra feat as well).

A cleric will almost certainly beat a fighter, but this example is just a bad one.

[Il_Vec]

And how do you have a luck feat and Improved init while being an elf .

I agree that Dex 20 is strange, but the improved init could come from Time Domain.