General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.

[Tavar]

That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

[IcarusWings]

Are you the ST in this situation?

Regardless, there's the Thaumaturgic Art of Astrology (Which is a bitch to get, but available to all), and the Alternative Divination Merit lets you change the base ritual, Compile Chart, to something more thematic, including Crystallomancy (crystals), Haruspicy (entrails), Oneiromancy (dreams), Palmistry (palm reading), and Sortilege (bone tossing).

No it's a player character concept, not sure how well it'll work in game, but I like the concept. And thanks for the advice in getting divination, it should help (I'll probably refluff some-of it to just plain-old visions though if the ST'll let me).

EDIT: Didn't see the new page

That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

I doubt it's possible to get as a ghost though. And I think the ability is Samsara (I haven't heard of it in Exalted, but it's a real word).

[Yuki Akuma]

That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

However, it can't predict the actions of PCs. Quite explicitly. I always found this awesome.

I mean, in-canon. There are people it doesn't work on, and they're the PCs.

[Xefas]

Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

His power is that he knows, absolutely, everything that will ever happen, perfectly and unerringly. So, if he were to exist, fate would be set in stone for everyone, including Essence users. They would only be able to do that which Sacheverell has seen. And that would be pretty damn maddening. The ultimate railroading for the entire cosmos (Since the demons of Malfeas seem to be scared of it, I imagine his ability isn't based on the Loom, so it would affect everything?).

[The Rose Dragon]

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

He exists, he is just sleeping. While he is sleeping, he sees everything in the present. If he wakes up, he will see everything in the future. It is possible that he will see his death at some point, of course, which would mean some Exalts would have to kill him.

[Xefas]

He exists, he is just sleeping.

This sounds a lot like the "It's okay Timmy. Nothing's wrong with Buster. He's just...sleeping. Yeah, that's it. And tomorrow we can get you a new Buster. One who isn't sleeping quite so much."

I think that when he's described as "sleeping", it's kind of metaphorical. Like, he's a potentiality (sleeping), and then he might become an actuality (awake).

[Yuki Akuma]

No, he literally fell asleep in the past and hasn't woken back up yet.

He was different before he fell asleep, of course. He was a Primordial and had different powers, so it wasn't quite so dangerous...

[The Rose Dragon]

All things other than Nirguna have a definite existence in Exalted. Except for non-awesome things.

[Tavar]

Or things that are outside of Nirguna's effect, if I read the material right. Man, I'm beginning to see why Graceful Wicked Masques has such a bad reputation.

[golentan]

Abyssals are the best generals. They've got the best war tree and it's far superior to the Alchemical charisma tree. Not to mention, access to Necromancy (Build yourself a unit of Nephwracks with Hekatonkhire Heroes) and their Melee charms (Deal ridiculous damage to Mass combat units) and the best training charm in the setting...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... How? Having read through, they get the same unit boost abilities (boost morale, drill, ignore relays, etc.) except: 1) the drill can't exceed 5, 2) they can't boost might to the same extent (army of ghosts: might 2, army of autocthonians with the character I built: 3-4. Equivalent to an army composed entirely of "experienced abyssals)", 3) they have normal formation rules rather than "whatever's most convenient I count as at all times," 4) they summon magnitude (essence) rather than adding a flat +3 to magnitude.

I'm not just counting the war charms, I'm counting a few other things from the book. And many of these powers work best on defense, but still.

[Arcanoi]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... How? Having read through, they get the same unit boost abilities (boost morale, drill, ignore relays, etc.) except: 1) the drill can't exceed 5, 2) they can't boost might to the same extent (army of ghosts: might 2, army of autocthonians with the character I built: 3-4. Equivalent to an army composed entirely of "experienced abyssals)", 3) they have normal formation rules rather than "whatever's most convenient I count as at all times," 4) they summon magnitude (essence) rather than adding a flat +3 to magnitude.

I'm not just counting the war charms, I'm counting a few other things from the book. And many of these powers work best on defense, but still.

His unit is Hardened Killers. They've got a score of 4 in every relevant attribute and ability. That might is a +2 on some values, which is negated by his better combat values. Even then, it scarcely matters when he's just straight up better than you, with better combat charms.

What did you build the character with? Base gen?

[Dragnar]

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

His power is that he knows, absolutely, everything that will ever happen, perfectly and unerringly. So, if he were to exist, fate would be set in stone for everyone, including Essence users. They would only be able to do that which Sacheverell has seen. And that would be pretty damn maddening. The ultimate railroading for the entire cosmos (Since the demons of Malfeas seem to be scared of it, I imagine his ability isn't based on the Loom, so it would affect everything?).

I never really got why that sort of predestination is such a bad thing... It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.
"What's that? You can see the future? Well then, you already know how much this is gonna hurt."

[Xefas]

He was a Primordial and had different powers, so it wasn't quite so dangerous...

Doesn't that mean he died? So wouldn't he be...dead and slowly "reforming" (because we're not allowed to use Rez lingo in Exalted)?

It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.

Actually, it does. Fate/Causality/Predestination/Etc only exists within Creation via the Loom and Samsara. And anyone who can use Essence can actually alter their fate depending upon just how powerful their Essence control is. An Essence 1 mortal with Awakened Essence might be able to choose chicken for lunch one day instead of pork, which is what the Loom of Fate said he would do. An Essence 5 Solar can just laugh at his own predetermined death and punch it in the face.

But, the Wyld, the Underworld, Malfeas, and Elsewhere - they aren't bound by the Loom or the Shinma. That's why the Primordials made the Shinma in the first place - to separate the way Creation worked from the way everywhere else worked. That means that, given enough effort, even if the Yozi "should" lose, even if all logic determines that they "should" fail, even if every force in the cosmos is set against them, there is still a tiny, tiny chance that they can screw causality and win anyway.

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

[TheCountAlucard]

Doesn't that mean he died?

Not really.

Fetich death doesn't cause you to cease existing - it just redefines you. When Malfeas was made to suffer fetich death, he was still the Primordial King, but instead of being an intangible concept of rulership, he was made to have a body.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I never really got why that sort of predestination is such a bad thing... It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.
"What's that? You can see the future? Well then, you already know how much this is gonna hurt."

Because it completely and totally screws with the nature of the setting. It's an ability no one but the Maidens and Sacheverell have (in canon, at least). Sacheverell is asleep because he can see everything, and that basically forces him into inaction. The Maidens have limited access related to their purview, and that alone makes them slaves to samsara. They are bound to do whatever they see in samsara, because it's going to happen, and nothing can change that.

That breaks one of the central conceits of Exalted, that you can change everything if you work hard enough. Samsara, though, is inviolate. If samsara says the Unconquered Sun is going to die in the next week, and the PCs save him from the assassination squads on the sixth day of that week, he botches his eating roll the next day and drowns face down in a bowl of soup. There's nothing you can do about it. Though I guess you can technically break samsara. You just have to go redefine how reality works on the most fundamental level there is. Good luck with that.

There's also the whole part where if he wakes up, the world ends. That's kind of bad.

[Xefas]

Fetich death doesn't cause you to cease existing - it just redefines you.

I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.

And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.

Also, I realize that "His sleeping is literal" and "His sleeping is a metaphor for something that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to sleep" is quite the pedantic nitpick, but what else are we supposed to talk about? No one wanted to discuss my Reclamation Voltron idea.

[Arcanoi]

When Sacheverell wakes up, the ST plays your characters for you.

[Mr.Bookworm]

But, the Wyld, the Underworld, Malfeas, and Elsewhere - they aren't bound by the Loom or the Shinma. That's why the Primordials made the Shinma in the first place - to separate the way Creation worked from the way everywhere else worked. That means that, given enough effort, even if the Yozi "should" lose, even if all logic determines that they "should" fail, even if every force in the cosmos is set against them, there is still a tiny, tiny chance that they can screw causality and win anyway.

There's a lot wrong with this. The Primordials didn't make the shinma. The shinma came before the Primordials. They are literally the rocks (or anti-rocks, really, shinma are kind of weird) on which the universe that the Primordials came to exist in are built. They exist everywhere. This is Exalted, so you can actually walk up to one and punch it in the face, but this is probably a Bad Idea.

The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

Everything is already predestined in samsara. It's just that no one can see it, besides the Maidens and Sacheverell.

I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.

Actually, yes, yes they do. The Yozis are pretty much Primordials who had a big bucketful of psychological trauma dumped on them (besides the Ebon Dragon, but he cheats), and they are very much recognizable in personality as what they once were. Just very, very twisted.

And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.

Because fetich death is an absolutely terrible idea. You have no idea what you're going to be redefined as. And this is ignoring the part where you have your identity killed and you have to restructure your very being. That probably stings a bit.

Besides, fetich death might not even free the Yozis, depending on how the surrender oaths work.

[Fortuna]

There's a lot wrong with this. The Primordials didn't make the shinma. The shinma came before the Primordials. They are literally the rocks (or anti-rocks, really, shinma are kind of weird) on which the universe that the Primordials came to exist in are built. They exist everywhere. This is Exalted, so you can actually walk up to one and punch it in the face, but this is probably a Bad Idea.

The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.

Glories of the Most High: Maidens explicitly contradicts the infallibility of samsara, noting as specific examples Ignis and PCs.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Glories of the Most High: Maidens explicitly contradicts the infallibility of samsara, noting as specific examples Ignis and PCs.

Actually, it says the exact opposite. Look at the second part of the third paragraph. It's assumed that if you contradict samsara in some way, well what do you know, it turns out that samsara predicted you would contradict the previous prediction of samsara that now turns out to be false.

It also recommends keeping samsara on the DL so you don't have to deal with logic loops like that.

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.

This is less of something that happens in-game, and more of just a way for the ST to deal with having an infallible prophecy that the PCs are inevitably going to muck up somehow.

[golentan]

His unit is Hardened Killers. They've got a score of 4 in every relevant attribute and ability. That might is a +2 on some values, which is negated by his better combat values. Even then, it scarcely matters when he's just straight up better than you, with better combat charms.

What did you build the character with? Base gen?

But him being straight up better is relying on solar level cheese and the army as pants mechanic rather than being a better general. Basically "I'm going to kick the snot out of you, the army is secondary to that."

That might is +4 bonus successes on attacks and contested essence effects, uncapped by war. The unit formation bonuses double close combat rating (which with regular soldiers brings it to normal maximum for auto successes, something the abyssal doesn't surpass at equivalent essence with hardened killers), double cover/shield bonuses, get +3 dv vs. ranged, and double/triple their effective magnitude vs foes in close or skirmish formation (further auto successes). All at once.

And it's a more experienced exalt (essence 4 before the really cool stuff kicks in), but normal rules for someone a decade or so into their career.

[Xefas]

There's a lot wrong with this. The Primordials didn't make the shinma. The shinma came before the Primordials. They are literally the rocks (or anti-rocks, really, shinma are kind of weird) on which the universe that the Primordials came to exist in are built. They exist everywhere. This is Exalted, so you can actually walk up to one and punch it in the face, but this is probably a Bad Idea.

The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.

You're right, I don't know a lot about the shinma, and I do recall something about the ancient beings of the Wyld being "birthed" by the shinma, now that you mention it. I do have to wonder, however, how Nirakara, whose purpose is to divide Creation from the Wyld, was somehow in existence before the Primordials who created Creation in the first place.

Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."

Actually, yes, yes they do. The Yozis are pretty much Primordials who had a big bucketful of psychological trauma dumped on them (besides the Ebon Dragon, but he cheats), and they are very much recognizable in personality as what they once were. Just very, very twisted.

I think you're simplifying fetich death here quite a bit, though. This isn't just psychological trauma. It's a complete fundamental shift in your very nature. I doubt it has ever been explicitly defined whether a Yozi's exact consciousness carries over or not (especially because it's something that no one in the setting could ever really know), but I'd rather err on the side of horrifying whenever the fate of the Yozi are involved.

And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here, with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."

[Mr.Bookworm]

You're right, I don't know a lot about the shinma, and I do recall something about the ancient beings of the Wyld being "birthed" by the shinma, now that you mention it. I do have to wonder, however, how Nirakara, whose purpose is to divide Creation from the Wyld, was somehow in existence before the Primordials who created Creation in the first place.

Nirakara defines shape and form. It's role in dividing Creation and the Wyld came later.

Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."

Well, again, samsara is like the movie script to Exalted. Complete knowledge of everything that will be is a very, very, very big deal, that literally nothing else in the setting possesses. Samsara largely works in the background, as the Maidens keep quiet about it. But if everyone knows about it, predestination becomes a lot more obvious.

Not to mention that Sacheverell has some other stuff going on too. If I remember right, when he's awake, he's basically a reality warper. His dreams become real. Though I could be wrong about that.

I think you're simplifying fetich death here quite a bit, though. This isn't just psychological trauma. It's a complete fundamental shift in your very nature. I doubt it has ever been explicitly defined whether a Yozi's exact consciousness carries over or not (especially because it's something that no one in the setting could ever really know), but I'd rather err on the side of horrifying whenever the fate of the Yozi are involved.

Well, at the very least, an almost exact copy of their consciousness seems carries over. Malfeas is pretty much defined in the non-fetich sense by his rage over his loss of what he once was. She Who Lives In Her Name explicitly is similar to what she used to be, she just lost all ability to tolerate anything that didn't fit in her hierarchy. The Ebon Dragon is again a cheating *******, and he only changed physically.

I also personally find it far more horrifying to be twisted like the Yozis were. If your mind was completely wiped blank tomorrow, you had new memories installed, and you were set up in a new life that conforms to those memories, would you able to tell? That's very unsettling and sad, but it's not really horrifying like the Yozis are. The Yozis are more akin to being tortured into insanity, having everything you love and cherish killed, and then being locked into a prison cell for the rest of your immortal life. Oh yeah, and they also keep swapping out your internal organs whenever they need a new lung or something.

And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here, with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."

Huh. I like that, and if I ran a game where samsara was relevant that's probably how I would play it, but it seems a bit contradictory with how samsara is portrayed in the other places its come up. I'm certainly willing to take Holden's word on it, though.

[Xefas]

Nirakara defines shape and form. It's role in dividing Creation and the Wyld came later.

Well, again, samsara is like the movie script to Exalted. Complete knowledge of everything that will be is a very, very, very big deal, that literally nothing else in the setting possesses. Samsara largely works in the background, as the Maidens keep quiet about it. But if everyone knows about it, predestination becomes a lot more obvious.

Not to mention that Sacheverell has some other stuff going on too. If I remember right, when he's awake, he's basically a reality warper. His dreams become real. Though I could be wrong about that.

Cool, cool. Learning new things.

Well, at the very least, an almost exact copy of their consciousness seems carries over. Malfeas is pretty much defined in the non-fetich sense by his rage over his loss of what he once was. She Who Lives In Her Name explicitly is similar to what she used to be, she just lost all ability to tolerate anything that didn't fit in her hierarchy. The Ebon Dragon is again a cheating ****, and he only changed physically.

This only proves that memories carry over; not necessarily consciousness. If, for instance, someone kicked me in the nuts and then perfectly cloned my present self, killing the real me in the process, the clone-me is still going to be upset about the nut-kicking because he perceives and remembers the event occurring as if he were me. He will then go on to live my entire life the exact same way I would have. But he's not me; I'm still dead. Which...sucks for me, I guess. This is what I imagine fetich death to be like, only the clone comes out kind of deformed.

[golentan]

Personally, I prefer to think of Fetich Death as brain damage: You become literally incapable of thinking in certain ways without lengthy, painful retraining of lost functionality.

That way I leave a path open for my favorite yozis to theoretically get better with counseling AND get the fundamental shifts in the being that lead to the Empyreal Chaos becoming the Demon City and the like.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Personally, I prefer to think of Fetich Death as brain damage: You become literally incapable of thinking in certain ways without lengthy, painful retraining of lost functionality.

That way I leave a path open for my favorite yozis to theoretically get better with counseling AND get the fundamental shifts in the being that lead to the Empyreal Chaos becoming the Demon City and the like.

The problem is, Yozis are incapable of acting outside of their First Excellency. It's impossible to change the Yozis back into what they once were. The only way to change them at all in any permanent sense is to muck around with their Charm trees or fetich death them again.

Really, the greatest way to make the Yozis get any better is to be a Green Sun Prince and invent Charms. Yozis automatically learn any Charm a GSP adds to their tree, so you can change the nature of the Yozis over time, as long as it sticks within their predefined roles and themes. The example I heard that I liked was with Malfeas. Malfeas is a holy tyrant, but it would not be out of theme for a Green Sun Prince to invent a Charm that works on the concept that a king's subjects are an important part of him, and thus should be treated with proper respect and care for the King's well-being. Add some new Charms to this tree, and bam, you have a Malfeas that is at least a bit kinder then what you started out with. You could probably also do something with Malfeas' mad DDR skills.

[golentan]

How is that different from what I said? I said they were incapable of thinking in certain ways (I.E. can't act outside their Excellency's Parameters), and can get better with counseling. Never said what kind of counseling. Therapy (at least successful therapy) is that which makes you better: no more, no less.

GSPs are/can be a natural component of that, in my mind.

[ShadowFighter15]

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

I now have an idea for a modern-day Exalted game, or at least an explanation for why no-one knows about gods and essence and such.

[Lix Lorn]

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.

I want to play this game?
Lessee... Shilo, young Solar. Nathan, possibly a turned Abyssal. Rotti, probably the same. Luigi and Pavi and Amber, likely Infernals. Graverobber Sidereal. Blind Mag... Solar? DB?

[Lord Raziere]

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.

This is less of something that happens in-game, and more of just a way for the ST to deal with having an infallible prophecy that the PCs are inevitably going to muck up somehow.

ah, its just the orwellian editor of reality fooling himself then "We have always been prophecized to go to war with Eastasia." and all that.