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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    If you take a level of Rogue, I believe a good DM should give you opportunies to use your evasion.
    If you bought a ring of evasion for that ability alone, I'd expect a DM to do the same.
    If you bought a ring of evasion to qualify for a prestige class that obviously used the requirement of evasion as a balance point, requiring you to take levels of Monk/Rogue/something for it, then you are messing with the rules plain and simple. Expect sometime something to hit you where it hurts, because you gave yourself a glaring weakness. It's like having the cold subtype and expecting not to be hit with fire ever.

    In my game I have a Paladin/Swordsage with Str 9. He uses a Belt of Giant Strenght to increase his Str to 13 - he has the Power Attack feat. Every once in a while someone hits him with a ray of enfeeblement, forcing him to rely on his other tricks to win. Once an enemy tried to sunder his belt, but he killed said enemy with an attack of opportunity.

    Using a magical item to fullfil requirements and expecting that to never be a problem is just silly, IMHO.
    Thanks for answering.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I agree, though specifically calling characters out on it seems wrong to me. It's also breaks with Player vs. Character knowledge to specifically go after the ring to deny them their PRC abilities. How do your foes know that will happen, since PRC prereqs aren't exactly a seeable attribute that you can exploit. Enfeebling somebody so they can't Power Attack is similar, though not quite the same, as reducing Strength weakens many meleers that it's more common knowledge. Idk, it just rubs me the wrong way.
    I see your point, but then again the only thing I mentioned specific against the ring is sundering. Dispel/disjunction/antimagic are good against any adventurer; but against someone who needs those items as a crutch, they are almost lethal.

    Also, a wizard noticing that 'he needs to be more strong than average to pull that trick, so I'll drain his strenght' does not seem weird at all to me. If a character knows you need extraordinary reflexes to take advantage of the lyrists' training and knows you got those from an item, destroying the ring so you would lose power simply looks like a smart move. It is a bit of stretching, though, since most people wouldn't have that knowledge.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-10-30 at 06:00 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #273
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    In a game using only the DMG and Complete Adventurer, that stupid clause in CW and CArc would not even be an issue.

    It is easier to assume that clause only applies to PrCs in those 2 books, rather than modifiying the core.

    If you want to score a build differently because of your preferences, then that is your perogative as a judge. As for cheesing prerequisites, that is a whole other issue. But it mainly comes down to individual preferences IMO.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    In a game using only the DMG and Complete Adventurer, that stupid clause in CW and CArc would not even be an issue.

    It is easier to assume that clause only applies to PrCs in those 2 books, rather than modifiying the core.

    If you want to score a build differently because of your preferences, then that is your perogative as a judge. As for cheesing prerequisites, that is a whole other issue. But it mainly comes down to individual preferences IMO.
    WinWin, that's not even what we were talking about. We were discussing Monk as a possible substitute for Rogue in Oduk's build and how the playground general view of 'Monk sucks' might have made the contestant avoid it and then Ring of Evasion was brought up. I was simply stating my personal opinion on the topic.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    -removed.

    I need caffiene
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-10-30 at 10:12 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Any word from the last judge, or were there non-rules disputes still pending?
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    I wish there was a "size of your orcish shot puts" category, 'cuz it took a pair for Oduk to take that little of Vigilante and focus entirely on the casting of it instead of the class, knowing how big of a hit he'd take to UoSI.

    I salute you.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    If anyone's around and availale, feel free. If no one says anything before tomorrow evening, I'll move forward to non-rules disputes: 4 judges is a sufficient minimum for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon
    Any word from the last judge, or were there non-rules disputes still pending?
    AFIK there was enough judges. I could step up I guess, but we have already had 4. I guess the finishing touches need to be put on a few things, disputes resolved, etc.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I wish there was a "size of your orcish shot puts" category, 'cuz it took a pair for Oduk to take that little of Vigilante and focus entirely on the casting of it instead of the class, knowing how big of a hit he'd take to UoSI.

    I salute you.
    In the first few competitions, a lot of us actually didn't take that many levels in the secret ingredient, but since then it seems to have become 10 or nothing for most contestants =P
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Any word from the last judge, or were there non-rules disputes still pending?

    I got a vague pm about judging, but no response on follow-up. As such, I'm going to post the rest of the disputes momentarily.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-11-01 at 09:59 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Remaining outstanding disputes

    @Cieryn
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    Re: Rhys, Martial Weapon Proficiency
    Human Paragon gets a free Martial Weapon Proficiency. I happened to choose Scythe. I understand it becomes redundant at 2nd level, but taking Human Paragon at 1st was better for skills and therefore locked me in to taking a MWP of some sort.
    Re: Sally, Rings
    The intention was not to use all 3 at once. Freedom of Movement and Arcane Mastery will generally remain on at all times, but the Ring of Master Artificer is only useful if you run out of infusions and need an extra 3rd and 4th level one. Then it isn't but a move action to remove one and don the other.
    Re: Sally, Quick Search/Hide
    Quick Hide is the only real reason for Sally's bluff skill. It was also mentioned that a Domovoi was chosen partially for its rogue-like skill sets, which includes Bluff, unlike Vigilante itself.

    The smoke cloud was also mentioned as being useful for hiding and is a perfect aid to the diversion.
    Re: Allistair, armored casting
    1) My understanding is that the chairman ruled that either interpretation of the armored spell casting issue was valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9
    It is listed for at least some other prestige classes. Under the circumstances, I'm going to say that both interpretations are legal. The prior ruling is superseded.
    Re: Allistair, familiar stacking issues
    2) A few judges have brought up the urban companion vs normal familiar issues. Both urban companion and obtain familiar refer to the normal summon familiar class feature, which has the clause that levels from classes that can obtain a familiar stack for the bonuses. The obtain familiar text only adds that all arcane caster levels count instead of only levels from familiar granting classes. I would argue that it is a valid assumption that the two would stack, but as stated in the build it would not change the build much if the DM disagreed. The wording of the summon familiar feat suggests to me that a pc is not intended to ever have more than one familiar. With 2 familiars the urban companion would be based off of ½ ranger levels (3 at level 20) and the regular familiar would be based off of Vigilante caster levels (8 at level 20). The only requirement for obtaining a blink dog through the improved familiar feat is 5 BA and an arcane caster level of 5. These are both met by level 12 when Allistair takes improved familiar regardless of the ruling on the stacking issues. The improved familiar feat also is not limited to a one time deal (it applies whenever the pc can acquire a new familiar) and the arcane caster level requirement is not tied to the familiar granting source in any way (it was not written with the thought of having 2 familiars). If the DM allows for two familiars they should both be able to be blink dogs, and if not the non improved familiar can still be granting small size for flanking through alter self or magic items. The familiar bonuses from master levels are not very important to the build, only the BA and HP scaling with the master. Having two familiars would only help the build, but as stated I don’t believe that that is the intent of the game rules.
    Re: Dymphna, “cherry-picking”/consistancy
    Monk was chosen for flavor as well as tactical reasons--I thought a penniless, homeless character would function best as a monk. I will admit, the high saves, bonus feats, and evasion were tactical reasons for the selection, but I'd hardly call this cherry picking. In the same vein, Viyana had no deduction when taking Master Inquisitive for Alertness and extra skill ranks, nor did Oduk lose points for taking two levels of rogue (granting sneak attack and evasion). As such, I would ask that you consider adjusting your score for Dymphna.


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    Re: Sally, Action economy
    Breaking action economy like you do is also not party friendly at all.
    I'd appreciate some elaboration.
    This one doesn't seem to be a dispute per say, but it never hurts to elaborate, so feel free to do so if you wish.
    (My reading of the comment was that the emphasis on multiple constructs would end up with on player using a disproportionate amount of time per round relative to other players without minions or summons.)

    Re: Dymphna, Mobility issues
    The bard spell list has some great candidates for alternative mobility, including (but not limited to) Swift Fly and Alter Self.



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    Re: Dymphna, Mobility issues
    The bard spell list has some great candidates for alternative mobility, including (but not limited to) Swift Fly and Alter Self.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    In the first few competitions, a lot of us actually didn't take that many levels in the secret ingredient, but since then it seems to have become 10 or nothing for most contestants =P
    Out of the 12 completed rounds we've had, ten winners have used all levels of the Secret Ingredient. That sets a precedent to use all of the levels. Also, some judges incorporate "completion of the SI" into "use of the SI" though many times the two may be at odds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    On another note, I'll not be available to chair for the next couple of months. Anyone interested in taking over.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    On another note, I'll not be available to chair for the next couple of months. Anyone interested in taking over.
    I volunteer to chair the next one. Is there any problem in you both chair and judge, btw?

    This one doesn't seem to be a dispute per say, but it never hurts to elaborate, so feel free to do so if you wish.
    (My reading of the comment was that the emphasis on multiple constructs would end up with on player using a disproportionate amount of time per round relative to other players without minions or summons.)
    That's exactly it.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Wow, quick response on the new chair!

    Anyway, once these disputes are resolved, are we free to move on to ICO XIV?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Is there any problem in you both chair and judge
    Judging and chairing would make you the only judge who was not viewing the entrants anonymously. Since the idea behind making entrants anonymous is to prevent perceived bias toward or against a particular entry based on your views of its author, some contestants may see this as a concern.
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  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Yeah. Also, the point of having a chair is so that there is someone the contestants can appeal to when they disagree with a judge.

    I'm pretty sure the positions are supposed to be mutually exclusive, just like trying to be a judge and a contestant.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    In regards to Dymphna's mobility - I took Swift Fly, Dimension Door, etc into account, however, those are very limited options with vigilante's small number of spells known, and since no spells known list was included with the entry, I couldn't very well count them. I still gave a 3, which is not a bad score for power.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    OK, so juding + chairing is not OK.
    I'll stick to chairing, then, if it's alright for everyone. Please send me suggestions for the next secret ingredient and we'll have it up as soon as tis one wraps up.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Remaining outstanding disputes

    @Cieryn
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    Re: Rhys, Martial Weapon Proficiency
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    I missed that Human Paragon granted proficiency. It was a tad misleading the way you presented it, as I thought you had used a feat slot to gain proficiency. My mistake.

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    Re: Sally, Rings

    Re: Sally, Quick Search/Hide
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    On the rings, yeah, I may have been heavy-handed. Enjoy +0.5 points.

    As for Quick Search/Hide, I also stand corrected. Enjoy another +0.5.

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    Re: Allistair, armored casting

    Re: Allistair, familiar stacking issues
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    Missed the armored casting comment. Faulty memory, I guess. Enjoy +0.5.

    As for familiar stacking, you reiterated in more detail what I said during my judging, except for the Ranger Improved Familiar bit. Upon rereading CW's Improved Familiar a second time, I see my folly about the Ranger's Urban Companion, as I assumed the Arcane Caster Level was the Master level, which isn't the case. Enjoy another +0.5.

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    Re: Dymphna, “cherry-picking”/consistency
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    Inconsistency in my scoring noted. enjoy +1.

    Score Adjustments:
    Dymphna +1 = Final Score 15
    Allistair +1 = Final Score 14
    Sally +1 = Final Score 16.5

    On that note, I don't think I'll be judging next contest, as dealing with rules disputes ate up a lot more time than I was planning to invest in the contest and I'd rather not repeat such. Perhaps my D&D-fu was not as strong as I'd've liked but I'll be going back to lurking spectator for the near future.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2010-11-01 at 03:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Updated Scores
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    1st Rhys - 15/15.5/15/13 = 58.5
    2nd Sally - 16.5/13.5/14/14 = 58
    3rd Dymphna - 14/14.5/14.5/11.5 = 55.5
    4th Nightwatch - 12.5/16/14.5/9.5 = 54.5
    5th The Judge - 13/14.5/13.5/12.5 = 53.5
    6th Allistair - 13/15.5/12/10.5 = 52
    7th Viyana - 11/11/13.5/14 = 49.5
    8th Oduk - 10/12/11/10.5 = 43.5
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-11-02 at 02:58 PM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    It could be a photo-finish...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Go Go Sally!!! :Writes a big sign that says just that:

    >.> <.< what?? that is the build I liked the most.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Go Go Sally!!! :Writes a big sign that says just that:

    >.> <.< what?? that is the build I liked the most.
    I was cheering for Nightwatch :/
    Power alone could bump him a lot higher.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    And one final dispute. After this one is resolved, we'll finish her up.

    @Cieyrin:
    Re Nightwatch
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    Nightwatch's success is in spite of Vigilante, not because of. Replacing Vigilante with more Bard would probably work better, since the only thing he's using Vigilante for is the casting.
    Vigilante gives Nightwatch his signature weapon/style, in fact faster than you could get it without some fighter levels. It gets him both quick search and fast hide, both of which he's designed to use to good effect between his divination ability (much of which would allow him to search from a distance) and his sneak attack dice.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Oh a dispute towards Nightwatch! Go Nightwatch go!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Judging disputes mean possible score adjustments, and that means I get to play with my spreadsheet more, so I'm for it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    And one final dispute. After this one is resolved, we'll finish her up.

    @Cieyrin:
    Re Nightwatch
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    Using net proficiency from Vigilante is something I overlooked, I'll grant you that. You also make use of Quick Hide decently by having an investment in Bluff, which was otherwise not readily apparent.

    I still refute you used Quick Search well, considering your Divinations aren't Search friendly. The Prying Eyes aren't intelligent enough to search an area and lack a Search bonus, either, for that matter, just a Spot bonus. Scrying just lets you see a target, which again would be utilizing your Spot and Listen checks. Your other recon spells don't provide any means to do so, either. The only time I can see your character utilizing Quick Search is when you're physically there. You have significant ranks in Search, so you can at least do that passably, just not primarily in the method you claimed you should have been able to.

    Considering the above, I award + 0.5 to UoSI, though Vigilante still falters in comparison to Sublime Chord and Unseen Seer in your build, which take over the spotlight from them on.

    Score Adjustments:
    Nightwatch +0.5 = Final Score 12.5
    Hope this is the last one. I'm going to sleep now...
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2010-11-02 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Final Scores
    (adjusted to correct score)
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    1st Rhys - 15/15.5/15/13 = 58.5
    2nd Sally - 16.5/13.5/14/14 = 58
    3rd Dymphna - 14/14.5/14.5/11.5 = 55.5
    4th Nightwatch - 12.5/16/14.5/10.5 = 54.5
    4th The Judge - 13/14.5/13.5/12.5 = 54.5
    5th Allistair - 13/15.5/12/10.5 = 52
    6th Viyana - 11/11/13.5/14 = 49.5
    7th Oduk - 10/12/11/10.5 = 43.5
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-11-02 at 08:08 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

    Um...you're...wrong? I think.

    Current Scores
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    1st Rhys - 15/15.5/15/13 = 58.5
    2nd Sally - 16.5/13.5/14/14 = 58
    3rd Dymphna - 14/14.5/14.5/11.5 = 55.5
    4th Nightwatch - 12.5/16/14.5/10.5 = 53.5
    4th The Judge - 13/14.5/13.5/12.5 = 53.5
    6th Allistair - 13/15.5/12/10.5 = 52
    7th Viyana - 11/11/13.5/14 = 49.5
    8th Oduk - 10/12/11/10.5 = 43.5


    A minor quibble, but Nightwatch and The Judge are tied for 4th, as per my calculations.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-11-02 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
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