Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

[Thurbane]

I would also say that Wizards web-only content and web enhancements would also qualify as obscure sources, IMHO.

[Grynning]

I would also say that Wizards web-only content and web enhancements would also qualify as obscure sources, IMHO.

I would disagree, as long as the contestant links them. Some of those, like Swiftblade, Font of Inspiration, etc. are very well known and the cornerstone of a lot of char-op builds. And since you can readily assume that everyone involved in the contest has an internet connection, I won't ding automatically for those.

[Tvtyrant]

I consider a source obscure if it had a very limited publication or distribution (like Exemplars of Evil, which I have literally never seen on a shelf anywhere), or a very specific setting book (such as Serpent Kingdoms).

My list of "non-obscure books" includes, but is not limited to, Core (including XPH), Completes, ToB, ToM, MoI, the "Races of" series, the "It's hot/cold/wet/etc outside" series, BoED, BoVD, and most Eberron books. I don't own all of these, but I am at least passingly familiar with them and can find out what's in them fairly easily.

Some of the "slightly obscure" books would include the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, the Fiendish Codexes, the majority of the FR books, Drow of the Underdark, Demonweb Pits and similar campaign books, Dragon Compendium, and Faiths and Pantheons. These are books that I wouldn't expect most people to have seen or read, and would probably get a slight penalty in elegance. If I didn't list it above, I've probably never heard of it and would therefore consider it very obscure and thus penalize accordingly. I'm not saying I know everything about D&D 3.5, but I feel that I represent the level of 3.5 literacy of the average DM.

I know people may take issue with me listing Eberron as "less obscure" than FR, Greyhawk or Dragonlance, but this is not just personal preference, it's based on my long experience with 3.5. Eberron was probably the most successful published setting of 3.5, was more heavily marketed and Eberron sources are often bandied about both on these boards and in conversation with the gamers I know IRL. FR is definitely a close second, but literally the only things I can ever remember from FR books are Incantatrix and Pun-Pun (i.e. sarrukhs). Not good associations

Edit: Oh, and I'm pretty sure this is in the contest rules, but 3rd party stuff is right out.

The fiendish codex's are rare? Weird, those are like my favorites.

Especially Hordes of the Abyss! How can you not love Graz'zt?

[BobVosh]

*snip* but literally the only things I can ever remember from FR books are Incantatrix and Pun-Pun (i.e. sarrukhs). Not good associations

Heh, only a few things I remember from Eberron: light rails (or whatever the magitech trains are called), warforged, planar shepards, and elementals being bound to everything.

[Duke of URL]

I'm going to withdraw from this one. I have a concept, but I doubt I'll have the time to do it justice (no pun intended) before the deadline.

[Grynning]

The fiendish codex's are rare? Weird, those are like my favorites.

Especially Hordes of the Abyss! How can you not love Graz'zt?

I love those books too. The list has nothing to do with how much I like a book, but with how likely it is the average DM would be familiar with their content. Granted, if I saw a really cool build involving a PrC that I knew from one of those books, I probably wouldn't penalize it very harshly, I would just take that into consideration in the final score.

[Amphetryon]

I consider a source obscure if it had a very limited publication or distribution (like Exemplars of Evil, which I have literally never seen on a shelf anywhere), or a very specific setting book (such as Serpent Kingdoms).

My list of "non-obscure books" includes, but is not limited to, Core (including XPH), Completes, ToB, ToM, MoI, the "Races of" series, the "It's hot/cold/wet/etc outside" series, BoED, BoVD, and most Eberron books. I don't own all of these, but I am at least passingly familiar with them and can find out what's in them fairly easily.

Some of the "slightly obscure" books would include the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, the Fiendish Codexes, the majority of the FR books, Drow of the Underdark, Demonweb Pits and similar campaign books, Dragon Compendium, and Faiths and Pantheons. These are books that I wouldn't expect most people to have seen or read, and would probably get a slight penalty in elegance. If I didn't list it above, I've probably never heard of it and would therefore consider it very obscure and thus penalize accordingly. I'm not saying I know everything about D&D 3.5, but I feel that I represent the level of 3.5 literacy of the average DM.

I know people may take issue with me listing Eberron as "less obscure" than FR, Greyhawk or Dragonlance, but this is not just personal preference, it's based on my long experience with 3.5. Eberron was probably the most successful published setting of 3.5, was more heavily marketed and Eberron sources are often bandied about both on these boards and in conversation with the gamers I know IRL. FR is definitely a close second, but literally the only things I can ever remember from FR books are Incantatrix and Pun-Pun (i.e. sarrukhs). Not good associations

Edit: Oh, and I'm pretty sure this is in the contest rules, but 3rd party stuff is right out.

Just so I'm clear here, I'm reading this as using a FR-specific build will be penalized, while an Eberron-specific build will not?

[Grynning]

Just so I'm clear here, I'm reading this as using a FR-specific build will be penalized, while an Eberron-specific build will not?

No. Fluff/setting has nothing to do with it, I was referring more to templates, feats, spells and the like.

Basically, if a key piece of the build requires the DM to go digging into some weird book that doesn't get much use otherwise, I'd consider it slightly inelegant. That's all. I'm not going to slam scores into the ground because I don't immediately recognize a source.

I'm not going to go into it any more because I think the issue is getting confused now. Contestants should make what they want to make and not be afraid to experiment, I know a good build when I see one. Anyone who is really concerned about my tastes in particular can read/skim the judging I did for IC 2 and 4.

[Amphetryon]

I was referring to a build reliant on crunch as well as fluff from FR-specific books. As you specified feats from such would also merit a deduction, albeit a small one, that answers my question.

[Cieyrin]

Honestly, I'd put FR and Eberron on the same footing in how common it is, as FR has a fairly respectable fan base that's been longer established than Eberron has, as well as I'd say some Eberron books are pretty damn obscure to boot. I'd say Explorer's Handbook and Dragonmarked are equally as obscure as Silver Marches and Power of Faerun are, for example.

Obscurity truly belongs to Dragonlance and, sadly, Greyhawk, given how little support they got from WotC during the 3rd Edition era beyond LG and the DLCS being the only things that actually had any of WotC's hand involved, with any beyond that in Dragonlance at least being 3rd party under the d20 license and that's about it.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

My first D&D game ever was a 2nd ed FR campaign. Never actually 'learned' much about it per se. Never got too much into Eberron, except for psionics-related stuff, however until these competitions began.

All in all, they're nice and everything, but rather make/use my own any day.

[Cieyrin]

All in all, they're nice and everything, but rather make/use my own any day.

It's rare that I actually play in a published setting, myself. Most campaigns I play in are custom worlds and take things from other settings as they fit in. There isn't material I've come across that I couldn't manage to adapt to the game I'm currently playing.

[The Gilded Duke]

Yeah.. I think I'm going to step back form this one.
I've figured out some decent ideas, but none of them seem worth the effort of formatting and everything. If you guys want I can switch over to judging.

[OMG PONIES]

Okay, build submitted.

[BobVosh]

Less than 24 hours, and I see only one post saying a build is submitted. I hope we got a few more :D

[Dark_Nohn]

Mine had been submitted awhile back

[Tvtyrant]

I'll get mine posted, but its sure to lose.

[OMG PONIES]

I'll get mine posted, but its sure to lose.

You can never be sure--the judges can always surprise you (for better or for worse).

[BobVosh]

You can never be sure--the judges can always surprise you (for better or for worse).

Yippee ki-ay, *whatever they edited this to in the PG-13 movie* :P

Surprise.

[Ozymandias9]

At this point, I'm going to be extending the deadline for 24 hours, since I have a very limited field of submissions.

[Tvtyrant]

Please do! I need more time!

[BobVosh]

At this point, I'm going to be extending the deadline for 24 hours, since I have a very limited field of submissions.

So Sunday at midnight?

[OMG PONIES]

Aw man, I was hoping for the cut tonight so I could read the entries tomorrow morning.

[Amphetryon]

This at least gives me an outside chance of finishing up.

Vigilante is just so... bad.

[OMG PONIES]

The problem I found isn't that it's bad; it's that the class seems disjointed. You've got roguelike skills and some abilities that complement them, bard spellcasting (though a few schools are removed), strange SLAs with very limited use, and a bizarre smite mechanic. It doesn't seem like there's a complete theme there.

I will say this for the class--at least it gains new spell levels faster than a bard.

[WinWin]

I am never sure about the time zones. Theykeep instituting daylight savings at new times which thows my understanding out.

Build is in. Sorry if it was late. I had a bit of fun coming up with the character, even if it is not that good.

Vigilante has some strengths, but needs a slight skill list revision. Rather than granting SLA's, maybe expand it's spell list or something. I would not call it awful, just poorly edited. I'll give a lengthier critique once people have their build in, but I think the majority of my concerns have already been covered by other posters.

I'll stand by in case a judge has to withdraw. it appears we have enough, but you never can be sure.

[Cieyrin]

Bother, I was thinking I could get cracking on my judging this evening...

Ah well, I guess I'll continue to wait patiently to see what horrors grace us this Unlucky 13th IC.

[OMG PONIES]

Sad to say, but I'm happy that others disliked their builds--it means I may have a fighting chance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

hmm I still have time to finish my build then... wondering If I should; I am not really keen on the build I have in mind.

Well I'll see what I can do.

[true_shinken]

I'll have to bow out of this one.
I just found out that my build does not get one of it's key features and I don't want to go through all the trouble of redoing it.
Writing the backstory was really fun, though.
Also, I would like to fill any judge slot that needs filling, if at all possible.