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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    ..........
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2011-02-10 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    They are already too strong and shouldn't be able to self-heal cheaply?
    So people can argue Fighters are better because they have more HP?
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Bard has to have something besides being a skillmonkey sorrcerer

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Well, if you want to get technical (and that's what we do around here, isn't it?), the SRD says that Sorcerer's draw their spells primarily from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, meaning, apparently, as long as most of your spells are from there, you can cherry pick a few other, awesome spells.

    EDIT: I think I might go point this out in the thread discussing the merits of Sorcerers vs Beguilers.
    Last edited by Mongoose87; 2010-10-18 at 11:28 AM.
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    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose87 View Post
    Well, if you want to get technical (and that's what we do around here, isn't it?), the SRD says that Sorcerer's draw their spells primarily from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, meaning, apparently, as long as most of your spells are from there, you can cherry pick a few other, awesome spells.

    EDIT: I think I might go point this out in the thread discussing the merits of Sorcerers vs Beguilers.
    I checked the SRD to see if this was true, and not only is it, I can't find any text that explicitly disallows a Sorcerer cherry picking spells from other lists. This is the actual text:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). ... A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
    Nowhere in there does it say that a sorcerer can only learn spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The closest it comes is the part I bolded above. Arguably, that implies that the sorcerer can research new spells like a wizard can, but by RAW it doesn't say the sorcerer can't learn a druid or cleric spell if he wished (and spent "some time studying," whihc is open to interpretation itself).

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    But, you're interpretation may not jive with your DM's interpretation and he/she has final say on whether you can learn a new spell or not.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    It's a legacy thing. In 1st and 2nd editions, Clerics were heal-bots. With a few notable exceptions, that's what they spent most of their time doing. Thus when spells were divvied up for 3.0, Clerics got healing.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Diarmuid View Post
    But, you're interpretation may not jive with your DM's interpretation and he/she has final say on whether you can learn a new spell or not.
    While this is true, we usually just default to RAW, since it is common ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    The OP posted the RAW and it leaves plenty of room to justify spells from other lists, new spells, etc.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Diarmiud: I know full well that a DM would likely disallow it, especially if the sorcerer-only spells are allowed, as those already give the sorcerer some nice stuff. I'm just, as Mongoose said, pointing out the RAW and supporting his point with it. It's basically one of those, "Oh, dear. I know that's wrong, I just can't seem to think of why," type things.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    There was a series called "Stories Behind the Spells" or something. It gave a nice backstory to most of the SRD spells, many were awesome.

    Short Version: After years of dutiful worship the gods felt people could be trusted with magic (obviously a weaker version than those they used to form the multiverse) so they gave people the power to cast spells.

    However because they could now use magic for themselves people didn't feel the need to worship them anymore, which unsurprisingly annoyed the Gods. So they basically re-wrote the rules that meant healing magic was now a conjuration spell, and made sure they were the only source of it, meaning people had to worship them in order to access it. So that's why only Divine Casters get it.

    Of course this is 3rd party and has nothing to do with why the rules actually exist (basically Clerics are healers, deal with it as person man said), but I like the story.
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-10-18 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    That looks really interesting. I'll do a Google for that, methinks.

    The reason I'm asking is because I'm doing a different spell system thing and couldn't for the life of me figure out how to divide arcane spells from divine ones.
    Line up all the spells at each spell level, then roll an increasingly smaller dice, put the odd rolls in arcane and the even rolls in divine
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    After reading that, as a DM, I would let the Sorcerer learn the Cure-line of spells if he really wanted to. Why? Cure spells are subpar and the Sorcerer is giving slots that could be used on more powerful spells to fill the role of a back-up or even main healer. This would maybe decrease the Sorcerer's power considerably, while giving him a bit more utility.
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Could always just take arcane disciple or the sorc variant from complete champion.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Shameless self-promotion for Arcane healing.
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-10-18 at 05:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Here is my own take on the arcane healing problem:
    Healer Mage (Arcane/General)
    Prerequisite: The character must be able to cast arcane spells of the Evocation school.
    Benefit:The character has a strong link to the Positive Material Plane. In game terms, the caster adds the Conjuration (healing) spells to his (her) spells known. However, those spells are added to the Evocation school, not the Conjuration school.
    This link comes in two forms:
    Partial Link: The character also has a link with the Negative Material Plane. In game terms, the character can also cast Necromancy spells, but gains no bonus spell slots (use this Feat as above.)
    Full Link: The character can only access the Positive Material Plane.The caster gains the above benefits, and a bonus spell slot per spell level (as per an evoker,but only for healing spells), but loses access to the Necromancy school.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study
    I'm pretty sure this is just referring to Sorcerers being allowed to create and learn spells like Wizards, possibly more or less abstractly.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeofar View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is just referring to Sorcerers being allowed to create and learn spells like Wizards, possibly more or less abstractly.
    Sure it is, but there is nothing to say that the spells they come up with can't be healing spells.

    The closest thing to a true demarcation we can find is in Epic spell development: spells with the Heal or Life seeds are always divine and in fact, require a divine focus.

    Personally, I think if you want to be a "healing arcanist" you should either be a theurge or give psionics a look, but that doesn't mean I'd stop arcanists from researching healing.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-10-20 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    As Bugbeartrap said, there is a feat in Complete Champion that allows a wizard to take a cleric domain, including the spells. So the wizard could take the healing domain. Poof, access to healing spells. Granted, the wizard has to follow the domain rules, so he/she can only cast each spell once per day. However, once the spells are on his/her list, then casting them from wands becomes possible. So, get the domain, grab wands, and off ya go. Wizard healbots.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    There is a spell in the Planar Handbook available to clerics, wizards, and sorcerers which lets them heal non-evil living targets. I'm AFB right now, more details later.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    In general though, it's just not part of the standard flavor. In every setting I've seen where arcane healing was common, it was either a) sciencey in flavor (which in D&D is covered by psionics), or b) the setting didn't have any division between arcane/divine magic. When you make that sort of division, part of the point is that "priestly" spells go to the divine casters, and "magely" spells go to the arcane casters. If you're making that division, healing is inevitably going to end up "priestly".
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords, Dragon Magic pg. 74, Sorcerer only self healing. Still means you have to use a level 5 spell known (or spend 25k on a knowstone) on a standard action self heal, but still.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    I know 3.5 D&D doesn't really differentiate too much between arcane and divine from mechanical standpoints, but is there any particular reason why a wizard/sorcerer couldn't access healing other than a designer thought it should be that way? Bards are arcane, and they can do it (I'm sure there are some other classes as well).

    To me, it just looks like an excuse to require a priest kinda class (cleric, druid, etc.) just for the purpose of patching up the party. Thoughts?
    Arcane casters are already broken enough and invalidate most of the classes in the game. Giving them the ability to heal simply means there only is one class: Wizard.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Arcane casters are already broken enough and invalidate most of the classes in the game. Giving them the ability to heal simply means there only is one class: Wizard.
    Quoth Logic Ninja:
    Every time a wizard casts a spell that's on a divine list, for that round he's a sucker.
    I don't think it changes game balance much, for this reason. I guess wizards/sorcerers get wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor more easily.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Quoth Logic Ninja: I don't think it changes game balance much, for this reason. I guess wizards/sorcerers get wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor more easily.
    There are only a handful of things that a divine class can do that a Wizard can't, the biggest of those is heal, because it then allows for the Wizard to actually be the only class required to do anything from level 1 on.

    It changes game balance in the sense that there only needs to be one class in the game to balance things for.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Make everyone in the party play Warforged. Then you can heal them all.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Um, Spell Compendium, page 218.

    Synostodweomer. Bam!

    Arcane healing spell. 7th level for some reason, though.
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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    There was a series called "Stories Behind the Spells" or something. It gave a nice backstory to most of the SRD spells, many were awesome...
    Thanks for the compliment, KB! I'm pretty happy with how that turned out, myself. You are indeed referring to the Behind the Spells series and, for those interested, that particular installment was the "Cure Wounds" one.

    As to the topic at hand, while the RAW don't forbid some sorcerer cherry-picking of healing spells it does seem against the spirit of those same rules to do so given the game's history.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    I always thought it would be great to have arcane healing, but with a catch. Maybe it functions like fast healing, or maybe is just isn't as powerful as the stuff clerics can pull off.

    I still think higher-level stuff like heal and raise dead should stay with the cleric, but a few healing spells wont really hurt.

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    Default Re: Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

    Aren't there any creatures on the Summon Monster lists that offer easy healing?
    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
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