[3.5] How does non-core material help balance?

[Endarire]

Most people agree that core is broken. I've heard the argument that non-core material increases balance. I'm curious how this is so.

[dsmiles]

Specifically, ToB brings non-casters up a little closer in power level to casters. (So I've heard.)

[Eldariel]

Most splats add feats, which empowers martial types, in particular the Fighter who lacks worthwhile feats in Core. Even just CWar suddenly makes the bonus feats very worthwhile. Going further in, newer books like Dungeonscape, Player's Handbook II and Complete Champion have an array of very worthwhile alternative class features that suddenly breathe new life into the Core classes making them good in at least one thing and allowing for the class features to do something instead of total magic item reliance. They also gain unique abilities and overall, the classes just get:
1) More options.
2) More power.
3) More out of their existing class features.

While Core Fighter is little more than an NPC Warrior with +1 HP/level, +1 to hit and +4 to damage, Non-Core Fighter can be Dungeoncrasher, Lockdown, Charger of various colors, Intimidator, Archer or so on with reasonable competency and he can do more than one of those things reasonably (generally two-three over his career depending on how much resources the chosen path eats).

And Barbarian is mostly charger/tripper/some such, yes, but when we add prestige classes you get to stuff like Runescarred Berserker, Bear Warrior and so on creating whole new archetypes, and stuff like Street Fighter, Spirit Lion Totem and company adding variety to the offensive abilities.

Rogues gain the ability to penetrate Sneak Attack immunities to a degree, hide from almost anything that can't beat their Hide-check (in Core, they're painfully visible to anything with any non-standard senses) and of course, extra options with sneak attack and trapfinding, and extra sneak attack damage. And the option to go more combat focus with full BAB from Swashbuckler if they so desire, and of course the awesome that is Swordsage making TWF viable and all that.


Indeed, that's one thing that's not covered yet; in Core you really should be two-handing in the long run (unless you're a TWF Rogue), but out of Core, you can make decent Sword & Board user, decent non-precision damage TWFer, a passable one-hander, decent unarmed combatants and so on. So not only do Fighter-type classes suddenly become somewhat competent at what they're supposed to do and get more options as to how to fill their roles (and get a bunch of new classes that just do it all like it should've been from the beginning), the various combat styles between Fighter types are greatly balanced allowing for "going with your heart" to work out better as most things can suddenly be made to work without making you a huge gimp.

Casters of course get new toys, among others efficient damage dealing and more options and few borked spells (hai Celerity!), but really, the power doesn't eclipse the core spells, it just gives them more alternatives on how to build themselves.

So yeah, balance is improved because Fighter-types become somewhat competent at what they do (and half-casters like Rangers and Paladins suddenly have spell lists worth a damn), while casters become more versatile but not all that much more powerful. Really, it's just Fighter-types coming onto their own that's the balance improvement.

[Starbuck_II]

Most people agree that core is broken. I've heard the argument that non-core material increases balance. I'm curious how this is so.

Makes Bards more fun: more options.
No longer choose to Inspire or cast.

Improves Ranger/Paladin casting. Before they kinda sucked as casting.

[tyckspoon]

All the tools the standard casting classes need to stomp everything forever are right there in the Spells chapter of the PHB. When you add non-Core material, you will find that with the exception of some notorious standouts, there aren't really things in there that are more powerful than what you can do with Core spells being employed by a single-classed Wizard, Druid, or Cleric. So the upper ceiling on power doesn't change all that much, especially in practical levels of optimization.

On the other hand, when you go non-core you get much more balanced options for casters; instead of Wizard and Cleric you can have Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Favored Souls, and Warlocks. Or you can go psionic and use Psions and Ardents.

(I just refreshed the main thread and noticed that Eldariel ninja'd me on the point about the other options added for classes, so I'll skip straight to my favorite example.)

The best example of what non-Core does for weaker classes is, IMO, the Bard. Core-only, he's kinda lame. You can make him a diplomonkey and a second-rate buffer, and that's pretty much it (although the borked Diplomacy rules mean being a good diplomonkey is ludicrously powerful, so he's got that.) Expand his options with non-Core stuff, and you can:

Achieve Tier 1 as a musically-flavored Sorcerer (Sublime Chord, seasoned with Metamagic Song to taste)
Be an effective personal combatant (Snowflake Wardance, various classes, items, and feats that let you add Cha to things, Knowledge Devotion to potentially turn your skill ranks into combat bonuses)
Make your party really care when you say 'I start singing' (I'm not fond of Words of Creation, but even without it you can easily achieve +3-4 points over your normal level-based Inspire Courage bonus.. and Dragonfire Inspiration can turn that into raw damage if that's your thing.)
Or just sing really really awesome songs, if that's what you wanted your Bard to be (Virtuouso/Seeker of the Song/Storm Singer/other prestige classes and feats that let you do a variety of new and sometimes quite powerful things with your Bardic Music uses.)

[Grendus]

They basically covered it. The tier 1 classes are so ridiculously powerful that more material won't usually make them stronger. The tier 4 and 5 classes, however, get some nice boosts and PrC's to make them viable, plus some feats that cater to them. Plus you get the ability to play more balanced versions of your character concept - for example, if you want to go full BAB fighter you can go warblade, or if you want a divine warrior without the DM screwing you over the fall you can create a crusader, etc.

It doesn't necessarily balance the game, since it doesn't nerf the OP classes, but it buffs the weaker classes and if the DM hands down a "no tier 1 or tier 2 classes" mandate you can still have a party with some decent spellcasting.

[lsfreak]

For a TL;DR version:
10-point scale.
Core puts melee at 1-3, and spellcasters at 1-9.
Out of Core puts melee at 1-8, and spellcasters 1-10.
Outside of Core, melee and spellcasters both get TONS of options - but spellcasters are already so powerful that it basically doesn't matter. You get more interesting options, but they're not really any more gamebreaking that a Core-only wizard can be. Melee, on the other hand, get a metric ****ton of awesomesauce.

[Endarire]

Splat makes the game more interesting, but doesn't generally raise the power level for casters.

Things that come to mind to help casters: Devotion feats, Divine Metamagic, Natural Bond, reserve feats, uber caster PrCs (Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper).

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I like that tldr version

Also, non-core adds much more lower level tier noncasters while adding the StP erudite and archivist for casters, oh wait. but seriously there are only so many ways the batman, with additional material helping a little bit. But with more than core noncasters suddenly can be darn near anything they want, with enough creativity.

Example? I want to make a gnome named Punny Bones (qfg4ftw) jester who is one of the few people in the campaign who knows the killer joke. Oops I can only do that outside core. And no, a bard who makes people dance isn't close.

[Keld Denar]

Plus, like, 80% of the T3 classes are from non-core sources. Dragonfire Adept? Non-core. Binder? Non-core. Factotum? Non-core. Totemist? Non-core. Incarnate? Non-core. Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage? Non-core. PsyWar? SRD, but technically non-core.

Isn't the only core T3 class the Bard, which argueably is the class that gets the MOST boosts from non-core material with Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Dragonfire Inspiration, the Sublime Chord PrC, etc.

Since T3 is considered the "sweet spot" of balance, this encourages BANNING core base classes in favor of non-core base classes to keep (relatively) balanced characters.

[JonestheSpy]

They basically covered it. The tier 1 classes are so ridiculously powerful that more material won't usually make them stronger.

I totally disagree. Read the various threads around here - almost all the uber-spellcaster builds discussed involve stuff like Celerity, Divine Metamagic+nightsticks, Heart of whatever spells, craft contingencies, etc.

Yeah, there's more stuff for noncasters, but it's grossly overshadowed by the magic cheese.

Non-core material helps balance only when you pick and choose from it with serious consideration. Just allowing all splatbooks is an invitation to ludicrousness.

[TheThan]

It really depends on what sort of material we’re talking about. Most sourcebooks don’t really add to balancing out core. The reason for this is that most sourcebooks provide additional material for both spellcasting and non-spellcasting classes. Both types of classes get a boost in power, therefor keeping the balance as is.

Some sourcebooks actually do. While I don’t know if they are purposefully designed to adjust the game’s balance, but they do by merit of them only providing more resources for one type of character. Tome of battle is a great example, it provides new and interesting options for those who wish to play melee characters, while not providing any support for spellcasting. Therefor the balance of the game is changed so that spell casting does not overshadow melee quite so much.

Splat books can have the reverse effect; Tome of magic actually weakens spell casters. It provides cool, interesting and unique magic options but, these options are not nearly as powerful as the standard options in the player’s handbook. This brings the spellcasters down to a similar level of the non-spellcasters, therefor some semblance of balance is created.

[Godskook]

1.It added better options for 'low-powered' character concepts like Conan or William Wallace. Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher, extra rage, etc, etc, are all non-core, but work to make true melee work better without changing what they were.

2.It added alternative melee options, such as Psychic Warrior, ToB, Totemist, which are much better balanced against full-casters, but don't feel like gish or full-casters themselves.

3.It added proper hybrid classes that were viable alternatives to their more single-concept brethren, such as the caster-rogue, the caster-monk, the gish, and the dual-caster. None of these options, without early-entry or Ur-Priest-type shenanigans are overly powerful compared to the straight-caster options(worst offender here probably is Arcane Hierophant, though).

4.Caster options now exist which are less powerful, but still fulfilling and useful, such as those mentioned above, but also things like Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, etc.

5.Blaster classes, which can 'properly' blast the field with wave after wave of energy damage. Dragonfire Adept stands(in my mind) at the fore-front of this group, but psionic classes, binder and warlock are all nice too.

I.e, in core it was:

Play a caster and have game-breaking power -or- play something else and not keep up with the monster manual.

In splat, its more like:

Whatever general concept you have, there's options to make it work, as long as you're not married to the fluff currently attached to the mechanics.

[Yora]

Specifically, ToB brings non-casters up a little closer in power level to casters. (So I've heard.)

Which is a lie. Not playing a fighter does not fix fighters.
And maneuvers are spells with the name filled off. That's still spellcasting in my book.

[Psyren]

And maneuvers are spells with the name filled off. That's still spellcasting in my book.

Let's not do this dance again...

[Killer Angel]

I've heard the argument that non-core material increases balance.

I don't think so.
Yeah, meleers get ToB.
Casters get Celerity, Orbs, Craft contingency, the METAMAGIC REDUCERS, and all the things that render them further broken and totally invulnerable, instead of "only" very hard to hurt.
The balance issues are still there. Only, the meleers have more options and fun.

[Rixx]

Out of control upward spiral of power wrought by lack of quality control. It really only improves balance for the canny (I.E. willing to evaluate the expanded materials for balance) by providing more powerful options - instead of fixing underpowered stuff or "nerfing" overpowered stuff, the pool of "the best options" just gets bigger (unless the bar is raised even further).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't think so.
Yeah, meleers get ToB.
Casters get Celerity, Orbs, Craft contingency, the METAMAGIC REDUCERS, and all the things that render them further broken and totally invulnerable, instead of "only" very hard to hurt.
The balance issues are still there. Only, the meleers have more options and fun.

I'd say it's easier to have a balanced party outside of core where everyone has multiple meaningful options in various situations. Sure, casters can break the game more easily, but that doesn't matter as much IME.

[Killer Angel]

I'd say it's easier to have a balanced party outside of core where everyone has multiple meaningful options in various situations. Sure, casters can break the game more easily, but that doesn't matter as much IME.

I can agree with this, i was thinking to the theoretical optimized casters.
Yeah, in standard games, with more options for all the players and when not all the casters' players effectively pick all the powerful combo, you can have a more balanced party.
But IMO that's different. More options = balance, it's not automatic.

[Yuki Akuma]

I totally disagree. Read the various threads around here - almost all the uber-spellcaster builds discussed involve stuff like Celerity, Divine Metamagic+nightsticks, Heart of whatever spells, craft contingencies, etc.

Yeah, there's more stuff for noncasters, but it's grossly overshadowed by the magic cheese.

Non-core material helps balance only when you pick and choose from it with serious consideration. Just allowing all splatbooks is an invitation to ludicrousness.

Yes, but those are only garnishes that let you go from a 9/10 to a 10/10.

Meanwhile, that stuff helps non-casters go from around 3/10 to 8/10.

[gomipile]

[QUOTE=Eldariel;9589242]

Rogues gain the ability to [...] hide from almost anything that can't beat their Hide-check[...]/QUOTE]

Where is that from? I'm looking at playing a rogue in an upcoming 3.5 campaign, so that sounds pretty sweet.

[Killer Angel]

Meanwhile, that stuff helps non-casters go from around 3/10 to 8/10.

Only because the splatbooks, introduce new melee classes that are stronger then their Core counterparts.
If I'm using a ToB class, I'm using a higher tier PC.
A Core wizard with splatbooks for spells and feats, gains a lot.
A Core fighter with splatbooks for equipment and feats? not so much.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, non-core material also helps core classes. Fighters can take Martial Study, and the Dungeoncrasher variant is awesome.

[ffone]

And the option to go more combat focus with full BAB from Swashbuckler if they so desire, and of course the awesome that is Swordsage making TWF viable and all that.

I'm curious - what's the Swordsage + TWF connection? A swift move or full attack charge manuever? That feat for Dex-to-damage w/ certain weapons?

[Yuki Akuma]

Maneuvers that let them hit with both weapons for +insane damage? Also, there are boosts that add damage to all attacks as swift actions.

[Killer Angel]

No, non-core material also helps core classes. Fighters can take Martial Study, and the Dungeoncrasher variant is awesome.

mmm... good point.
Probably, i should correct my PoV, at least a little.

[ffone]

Maneuvers that let them hit with both weapons for +insane damage? Also, there are boosts that add damage to all attacks as swift actions.

Okay, so the "TWF becomes more effective (compared to two-handed or whatever) when you get more per-attack damage bonuses" principle. With the feat to add Dex to damage, is it halved for off-hand attacks, and does it replace or add to Str damage?

[Yuki Akuma]

Dex to damage seems to add to Strength, and it isn't halved for smaller weapons. So Shadow Blade is good for TWFers too, at least those with high Dexterity.

Although ToB doesn't make TWF better than a single two-handed weapon - it just makes TWF better. Two-handed weapons are still better at dealing three digits of damage per round.

[Tytalus]

Not playing a fighter does not fix fighters.

That wasn't the point. The point was that if you want to play a melee character, ToB provides solid choices right out of the box.

The fighter gets tons more options in non-core, too, and benefits in its own way. It's still a flawed class that requires considerable knowledge to make competitive, but it benefits nonetheless.

And maneuvers are spells with the name filled off. That's still spellcasting in my book.

If you want to flavor maneuvers as spells, that's up to you, of course. You can even flavor most fighter feats as spells, if that's what you are after.

Out of control upward spiral of power wrought by lack of quality control. It really only improves balance for the canny (I.E. willing to evaluate the expanded materials for balance) by providing more powerful options - instead of fixing underpowered stuff or "nerfing" overpowered stuff, the pool of "the best options" just gets bigger (unless the bar is raised even further).

I disagree. "Out of control" is clearly an overstatement. Core casters are already out of control - compared to the non-caster options. A few notorious caster boosts aside, casters gain more options, but hardly more power. Non-casters, on the other hand, get the tools to become (almost) on-par with casters.

"Balance for the canny" is also off: many non-core options are much more solid out right of the box. While you can completely screw up a fighter, wizard or monk build if you don't know what you are doing, many non-core classes are very forgiving to uncanny players. The tier 3 non-core options in particular are almost completely impervious to non-optimal choices. That's a good thing.

As for the not "nerfing" - that's not the issue discussed in the thread. Whether or not a complete core fix would have been better than introducing (better) alternatives for the problematic classes is a WotC design decision. In fact, ToB etc. can very well be seen as a "fix" or errata. I'd like to point to a different post that illustrates that view better than I can.

Where is that from? I'm looking at playing a rogue in an upcoming 3.5 campaign, so that sounds pretty sweet.

Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness.

[dsmiles]

That wasn't the point. The point was that if you want to play a melee character, ToB provides solid choices right out of the box.

Exactly, not a single word in my post said anything about 'fighters' specifically. I said 'non-casters.' Fighters still pretty much suck except for a few specific builds.