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2010-10-23, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
It seems to me that Weapon Finesse is an unnecessary hurdle for a Dexterity-focused melee combatant. Would it make a big difference in the grand scheme of things to just make it a benefit inherent to the relevant weapons?
I'm thinking about instituting this as a houserule in the game I'm DMing, because the party rogue (who is a halfling) has hilariously low Strength and it doesn't seem fair that he has to spend a feat to be able to meaningfully contribute in combat.
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2010-10-23, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- A pie factory.
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Nevermind that that poor halfling bastard is going to have to wait until 3rd level to take it (+1 BAB prereq has ruined many a low-level concept).
I wouldn't object to Weapon Finesse being waived.Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2010-10-23, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
No, it shouldn't be a big deal to let him have weapon finesse without a feat. I've always thought it should work that way, anyway.
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2010-10-23, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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- USA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
No, it probably shouldn't cost a feat. Many people give it for free with light weapons; I tend to lump in Dex to damage with it, and then it's only moderately useful.
Wow, ninja'd. Better Nate than lever, though...Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-10-23 at 04:41 PM.
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2010-10-23, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2010-10-23, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- PST (GMT -8)
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2010-10-23, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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2010-10-23, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Davis, CA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
when im dm'ing, i usually make the feat apply to ALL finesse-able weapons available. that way you still have to spend a feat, but it does more. additionally, once bought, I always add dex to damage on those weapons
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2010-10-23, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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- Owensboro, Kentucky, USA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Is there a feat that lets you use your DEX mod for melee damage too? I've been wondering about that for a while.
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2010-10-23, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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- Old Jersiaise
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2010-10-23, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Last edited by Greenish; 2010-10-23 at 04:53 PM.
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2010-10-23, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2004
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- Enterprise, Alabama
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Maybe he meant any weapon. That would be a upgrade: longsword can use Dex if he wants.
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2010-10-23, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Well, Shadow Blade does it, though...it's just not worth a feat to bump up your damage by such a small amount.
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2010-10-23, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Ponyville
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Forget cursing him. He needs a good Pox upon him AND his family...
Anyhoo... back on topic, a couple of alternate ideas:
If the flavor fits/is allowed a dip of Swashbuckler can provide Weapon Finesse for 'free'.
Or
Remove Weapon Finesse as a feat, but make certain weapons "finesse ONLY", as in, a Rapier automatically counts Dex for to-hit but CANNOT count Str for to-hit. So a Barbarian with Str 18 and Dex 10 with a Rapier would have a to-hit bonus of 0. (as for Str and/or Dex to damage, that's up to you/your DM)
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2010-10-23, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Davis, CA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Originally Posted by Vael View Post
...you're saying that if I go to heaven, I will find alcoholic bears waiting for me?
HELL! I CHOOSE HELL!
[GENERATION 16: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.]
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2010-10-23, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Thanks for the prompt responses and landslide of support, everyone.
I thought about letting Weapon Finesse apply Dex to damage instead, but I didn't want to make it strictly better than Shadow Blade. The "non-finesse weapon becomes finesse-able" idea sounds good, though.
Swashbuckler is allowed, but doesn't fit well. Besides, why bother when I can just flex my DM muscles?
Remove Weapon Finesse as a feat, but make certain weapons "finesse ONLY", as in, a Rapier automatically counts Dex for to-hit but CANNOT count Str for to-hit. So a Barbarian with Str 18 and Dex 10 with a Rapier would have a to-hit bonus of 0. (as for Str and/or Dex to damage, that's up to you/your DM)Last edited by Nate the Snake; 2010-10-23 at 05:13 PM.
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2010-10-23, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
I absolutely detest Weapon Finesse's status as a feat. Should just be a normal option for wielding certain weapons - and more than are currently listed. I don't think you have to worry about devaluing Strength, since warriors are still going to want it for the 1.5*Str to damage bonus, while stealth-types couldn't really afford Str to begin with, but now aren't unduly penalized for it.
Yes, if you have Dex-to-attack and Dex-to-damage, Str basically does nothing - but ultimately, every character needs to be able to dump something.
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2010-10-23, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Don't worry about it. Shadow Blade isn't that good of a feat to begin with. Plus, it punishes all non-ToB classes that need Dex to damage.
Based on how the weapon is designed, it could actually make sense. The rapier just can't be used in the same way as a battle axe, or it would break.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
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2010-10-23, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
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2010-10-23, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Well, when you put it that way, it doesn't seem so bad.
Based on how the weapon is designed, it could actually make sense. The rapier just can't be used in the same way as a battle axe, or it would break.
Good point, though.
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2010-10-23, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
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2010-10-23, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
That's (partially) why I left the "(stat) to damage" open for debate.
He can hit just as HARD with a Rapier, if Str to damage.
But actually HITTING would be a little more difficult.
Defending my point of view from a Flavor Perspective:
Barbarian swings Battle Axe at Guy-in-Full-Plate (GiFP).
Battle Axe is big heavy weapon, it doesn't matter where GiFP gets hit, it will hurt.
Barbarian swings Rapier at GiFP.
Rapier is a light slashing weapon, Full Plate is a good defense against light slashing weapons, and Barbarian lacks technique (10 Dex remember), so the Barbarian would 'connect' with the weapon, but it would just 'bounce off' the thick plating most of the time, doing no damage (effectively a Miss)
Swashbuckler with Rapier (10 Str, 18 Dex) DOES have technique, would be more able to hit GiFP in the vulnerable places.
This is why I suggested that only 'certain' weapons be "Finesse ONLY", you don't need to waste a feat, but you can only apply Dex with fewer weapons.
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2010-10-23, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
I played in a game a long while ago that had Dex-to-hit as the standard for all weapons. The DM made it so Power Attack also allowed you to use Strength in place of your Dexterity for attack rolls if you wanted to, in addition to its normal benefits.
Seemed kind of an interesting way to do it.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2010-10-23, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
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2010-10-23, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Here's a list of feats that are unnecessary core feat tax and should be given for free (or tied to other feats in case of ):
Improved & Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Point Blank Shot
Endurance
Mobility
Spring Attack (and all variants, though this stems from few stupid mistakes in designing the game mechanics)
Mounted Combat (or Ride-By Attack or some such; overall, the long chain is way too feat intensive)
And of course, stupid stuff that's simply underpowered like Toughness (duh), Dodge (one enemy you gotta announce, yay!), Weapon Focus-tree (bleh), Skill Focus, all the dual skill feats, Combat Casting (wtf is that even supposed to do?), etc. But they don't fall here.
Sufficient to say though, yeah, there's an immense amount of unnecessary feat tax in the Core; there's actually enough that even with all the excess feats a Fighter gets, it's still not really viable to make a Fighter who is proficient in multiple combat styles under like level 12.
Of course, EWP is kinda underpowered too but weapon balance is another matter entirely (and again, game mechanics kinda **** over non-reach weapons due to 5' steps enabling escape from weapons without reach unless you're like Enlarged or an aberration or really, reallytallevil).Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-23 at 05:42 PM.
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2010-10-23, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Get rid of the feat and have finessable weapons use STR/DEX to hit as the user sees fit. You can stab hard and punch through a surface or precisely stab in between/weakest surfaces with a rapier for example.
Str builds= more damage, CC is better and you get to be buff, maybe with a bushy beard!
Dex Builds= generally more ac and style baby style.
Further penalizing DEX builds is kinda mean in a fantasy game. As for DEX to damage, personally I leave it as is, but have been thinking on what to do with WFinesse and Shadowblade for some time.
Thinking of making WFinesse essentially SB with all finessable wps and maybe turning SB into a SH maneuver DC buffer or something that allows striking incorporeal dudes. Not sure yet.
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2010-10-23, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Last edited by Greenish; 2010-10-23 at 06:16 PM.
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2010-10-23, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Honestly, making Weapon Finesse grant Dex to damage is fine. Then Dex-focus has a cost but not such a massive cost it has now. And Str-focus has so many natural bonuses when it comes to melee combat that it's fine really (tripping, two-handed weapons, power attacks, etc.).
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Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-10-23, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2010-10-23, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?
Replacing Shadow Blade and designing it again is just fine to grant some benefit for Shadow Hand users without pigeonholing every Dex-based melee type into that. Shadow Blade is a bit too restricted as it stands, anyways; makes many iconic Dex-based weapons like Rapier, Kukri and company really niché.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.