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    Default Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    It seems to me that Weapon Finesse is an unnecessary hurdle for a Dexterity-focused melee combatant. Would it make a big difference in the grand scheme of things to just make it a benefit inherent to the relevant weapons?

    I'm thinking about instituting this as a houserule in the game I'm DMing, because the party rogue (who is a halfling) has hilariously low Strength and it doesn't seem fair that he has to spend a feat to be able to meaningfully contribute in combat.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Nevermind that that poor halfling bastard is going to have to wait until 3rd level to take it (+1 BAB prereq has ruined many a low-level concept).

    I wouldn't object to Weapon Finesse being waived.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    No, it shouldn't be a big deal to let him have weapon finesse without a feat. I've always thought it should work that way, anyway.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    No, it probably shouldn't cost a feat. Many people give it for free with light weapons; I tend to lump in Dex to damage with it, and then it's only moderately useful.

    Wow, ninja'd. Better Nate than lever, though...
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-10-23 at 04:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    No, it probably shouldn't cost a feat. Many people give it for free with light weapons; I tend to lump in Dex to damage with it, and then it's only moderately useful.

    Wow, ninja'd. Better Nate than lever, though...
    I agree, give the printed feat for free, and make Weapon Finesse instead add dex to damage instead of strength. That'd be fair (and would help out the character a lot).

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    I'd say make it Dex instead of Str to damage, Dex to hit, and no requirements.
    So the aforementioned halfling rogue can grab it at L1, and actually do damage even when not sneakattacking
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Better Nate than lever
    ....Curse you for bringing that up.

    I'd say no, it should not cost a feat.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    when im dm'ing, i usually make the feat apply to ALL finesse-able weapons available. that way you still have to spend a feat, but it does more. additionally, once bought, I always add dex to damage on those weapons
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Is there a feat that lets you use your DEX mod for melee damage too? I've been wondering about that for a while.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren Hero View Post
    when im dm'ing, i usually make the feat apply to ALL finesse-able weapons available. that way you still have to spend a feat, but it does more. additionally, once bought, I always add dex to damage on those weapons
    ...So half of your houserule is that Weapon Finesse applies to... all the weapons it already applied to?
    Last edited by Reynard; 2010-10-23 at 04:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren Hero View Post
    when im dm'ing, i usually make the feat apply to ALL finesse-able weapons available. that way you still have to spend a feat, but it does more.
    That's how it works by default in 3.5.

    [Edit]: Curses, swordsage'd.
    Quote Originally Posted by JRKlein View Post
    Is there a feat that lets you use your DEX mod for melee damage too? I've been wondering about that for a while.
    Shadow Blade, from ToB. Only works on Shadow Hand's favoured weapons and only when in Shadow Hand stance.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-10-23 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Maybe he meant any weapon. That would be a upgrade: longsword can use Dex if he wants.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Well, Shadow Blade does it, though...it's just not worth a feat to bump up your damage by such a small amount.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    ....Curse you for bringing that up.
    Forget cursing him. He needs a good Pox upon him AND his family...

    Anyhoo... back on topic, a couple of alternate ideas:

    If the flavor fits/is allowed a dip of Swashbuckler can provide Weapon Finesse for 'free'.
    Or
    Remove Weapon Finesse as a feat, but make certain weapons "finesse ONLY", as in, a Rapier automatically counts Dex for to-hit but CANNOT count Str for to-hit. So a Barbarian with Str 18 and Dex 10 with a Rapier would have a to-hit bonus of 0. (as for Str and/or Dex to damage, that's up to you/your DM)

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    That's how it works by default in 3.5.

    [Edit]: Curses, swordsage'd.
    Shadow Blade, from ToB. Only works on Shadow Hand's favoured weapons and only when in Shadow Hand stance.
    my bad, I meant to say all weapons....and the added dex damage as well
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Thanks for the prompt responses and landslide of support, everyone.

    I thought about letting Weapon Finesse apply Dex to damage instead, but I didn't want to make it strictly better than Shadow Blade. The "non-finesse weapon becomes finesse-able" idea sounds good, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    If the flavor fits/is allowed a dip of Swashbuckler can provide Weapon Finesse for 'free'.
    Swashbuckler is allowed, but doesn't fit well. Besides, why bother when I can just flex my DM muscles?

    Remove Weapon Finesse as a feat, but make certain weapons "finesse ONLY", as in, a Rapier automatically counts Dex for to-hit but CANNOT count Str for to-hit. So a Barbarian with Str 18 and Dex 10 with a Rapier would have a to-hit bonus of 0. (as for Str and/or Dex to damage, that's up to you/your DM)
    I fail to see how a barbarian can't hit just as hard with a rapier as with anything else.
    Last edited by Nate the Snake; 2010-10-23 at 05:13 PM.
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    4E Druids tap into the Primal Beast to wild shape. The Primal Beast cares not for your technicalities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    I absolutely detest Weapon Finesse's status as a feat. Should just be a normal option for wielding certain weapons - and more than are currently listed. I don't think you have to worry about devaluing Strength, since warriors are still going to want it for the 1.5*Str to damage bonus, while stealth-types couldn't really afford Str to begin with, but now aren't unduly penalized for it.

    Yes, if you have Dex-to-attack and Dex-to-damage, Str basically does nothing - but ultimately, every character needs to be able to dump something.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post

    I thought about letting Weapon Finesse apply Dex to damage instead, but I didn't want to make it strictly better than Shadow Blade. The "non-finesse weapon becomes finesse-able" idea sounds good, though.
    Don't worry about it. Shadow Blade isn't that good of a feat to begin with. Plus, it punishes all non-ToB classes that need Dex to damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post
    I fail to see how a barbarian can't hit just as hard with a rapier as with anything else.
    Based on how the weapon is designed, it could actually make sense. The rapier just can't be used in the same way as a battle axe, or it would break.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post
    I fail to see how a barbarian can't hit just as hard with a rapier as with anything else.
    Because he can't two-hand a rapier?

    Doesn't explain it for the spiked chain, though.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Don't worry about it. Shadow Blade isn't that good of a feat to begin with. Plus, it punishes all non-ToB classes that need Dex to damage.
    Well, when you put it that way, it doesn't seem so bad.

    Based on how the weapon is designed, it could actually make sense. The rapier just can't be used in the same way as a battle axe, or it would break.
    In that case, I think breaking the weapon would be incidental to the successful attack rather than an obstacle.

    Good point, though.
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    I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Because he can't two-hand a rapier?

    Doesn't explain it for the spiked chain, though.
    I'm not sure. Ever tried swinging something like that around? Manual dexterity helps you avoid a lot more self-inflicted nut shots than being buff would.

    And, I guess, makes it easier to hit your opponent in a way that actually hurts them.
    Last edited by Reynard; 2010-10-23 at 05:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post
    I fail to see how a barbarian can't hit just as hard with a rapier as with anything else.
    That's (partially) why I left the "(stat) to damage" open for debate.
    He can hit just as HARD with a Rapier, if Str to damage.
    But actually HITTING would be a little more difficult.

    Defending my point of view from a Flavor Perspective:
    Barbarian swings Battle Axe at Guy-in-Full-Plate (GiFP).
    Battle Axe is big heavy weapon, it doesn't matter where GiFP gets hit, it will hurt.
    Barbarian swings Rapier at GiFP.
    Rapier is a light slashing weapon, Full Plate is a good defense against light slashing weapons, and Barbarian lacks technique (10 Dex remember), so the Barbarian would 'connect' with the weapon, but it would just 'bounce off' the thick plating most of the time, doing no damage (effectively a Miss)
    Swashbuckler with Rapier (10 Str, 18 Dex) DOES have technique, would be more able to hit GiFP in the vulnerable places.

    This is why I suggested that only 'certain' weapons be "Finesse ONLY", you don't need to waste a feat, but you can only apply Dex with fewer weapons.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    I played in a game a long while ago that had Dex-to-hit as the standard for all weapons. The DM made it so Power Attack also allowed you to use Strength in place of your Dexterity for attack rolls if you wanted to, in addition to its normal benefits.

    Seemed kind of an interesting way to do it.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard View Post
    I'm not sure. Ever tried swinging something like that around?
    Obviously not, I'm not suicidal.

    Still, I think the weapons should allow for a choice.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Here's a list of feats that are unnecessary core feat tax and should be given for free (or tied to other feats in case of ):

    Improved & Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    Weapon Finesse
    Point Blank Shot
    Endurance
    Mobility
    Spring Attack (and all variants, though this stems from few stupid mistakes in designing the game mechanics)
    Mounted Combat (or Ride-By Attack or some such; overall, the long chain is way too feat intensive)


    And of course, stupid stuff that's simply underpowered like Toughness (duh), Dodge (one enemy you gotta announce, yay!), Weapon Focus-tree (bleh), Skill Focus, all the dual skill feats, Combat Casting (wtf is that even supposed to do?), etc. But they don't fall here.

    Sufficient to say though, yeah, there's an immense amount of unnecessary feat tax in the Core; there's actually enough that even with all the excess feats a Fighter gets, it's still not really viable to make a Fighter who is proficient in multiple combat styles under like level 12.


    Of course, EWP is kinda underpowered too but weapon balance is another matter entirely (and again, game mechanics kinda **** over non-reach weapons due to 5' steps enabling escape from weapons without reach unless you're like Enlarged or an aberration or really, really tall evil).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-10-23 at 05:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Get rid of the feat and have finessable weapons use STR/DEX to hit as the user sees fit. You can stab hard and punch through a surface or precisely stab in between/weakest surfaces with a rapier for example.

    Str builds= more damage, CC is better and you get to be buff, maybe with a bushy beard!
    Dex Builds= generally more ac and style baby style.

    Further penalizing DEX builds is kinda mean in a fantasy game. As for DEX to damage, personally I leave it as is, but have been thinking on what to do with WFinesse and Shadowblade for some time.

    Thinking of making WFinesse essentially SB with all finessable wps and maybe turning SB into a SH maneuver DC buffer or something that allows striking incorporeal dudes. Not sure yet.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Here's a list of feats that are unnecessary core feat tax and should be given for free (or tied to other feats in case of ):

    Improved & Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    TWF should work like Snap Kick. Every time you attack with the mainhand (assuming you take the penalty), you get an offhand attack too. Imp. TWF could allow it to apply to each attack in a full attack.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-10-23 at 06:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trundlebug View Post
    Further penalizing DEX builds is kinda mean in a fantasy game. As for DEX to damage, personally I leave it as is, but have been thinking on what to do with WFinesse and Shadowblade for some time.
    Honestly, making Weapon Finesse grant Dex to damage is fine. Then Dex-focus has a cost but not such a massive cost it has now. And Str-focus has so many natural bonuses when it comes to melee combat that it's fine really (tripping, two-handed weapons, power attacks, etc.).
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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Honestly, making Weapon Finesse grant Dex to damage is fine. Then Dex-focus has a cost but not such a massive cost it has now. And Str-focus has so many natural bonuses when it comes to melee combat that it's fine really (tripping, two-handed weapons, power attacks, etc.).
    Yes sir absolutely. Just don't want to displace Shadow Blade completely. As for tripping type stuff, I've borrowed some ideas from PF's CMB (I think they've been thought reading me) to even the pace between DEX/STR.

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    Default Re: Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trundlebug View Post
    Yes sir absolutely. Just don't want to displace Shadow Blade completely. As for tripping type stuff, I've borrowed some ideas from PF's CMB (I think they've been thought reading me) to even the pace between DEX/STR.
    Replacing Shadow Blade and designing it again is just fine to grant some benefit for Shadow Hand users without pigeonholing every Dex-based melee type into that. Shadow Blade is a bit too restricted as it stands, anyways; makes many iconic Dex-based weapons like Rapier, Kukri and company really niché.
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