Gestalt and Tier-Changing

[Aran Banks]

Dear Playground

I'm trying to fit together some classes, specifically a bunch of homebrew invocation classes from here, and I want them all to have a relatively equal power level.

Problem is, they range from Tier 4 (standard warlock) to Tier 2 (Ebon Initiate). If I were to play a game with the standard 'lock and the ebon initiate together... well, it'd be like playing with a fighter and a sorcerer. The Tier 2 character would absolutely walk all over the Tier 4 character.

In pondering this problem, I came across the idea of gestalting the warlock with some other class (like the NPC warrior, for full BAB) to make it closer to the Ebon Initiate. And it got me thinking.

Warning: High Levels of Entropy. WIP Goggles Recommended
Looking at trying to make the sorcerer Tier 1, I was thinking of Sorc/Fighter Gestalt. Full BAB with an extra good save and plenty of bonus feats to waste. Sounded good to me, but Barbarian also sounded viable. I eventually went with Barbarian, because I liked the idea of Tier 2/4 gestalt to make Tier 1.

To make Tier 2, A Tier 3/4 gestalt looked good.

Making Tier 3 seemed to work with a Tier 4/5 gestalt.

And Making Tier 4... well, if anyone really cares, seemed best as Tier 5/5.

And if you're actually trying to create a Tier 5 class... well I don't cater to you at all.

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This seemed pretty cool, but I'm sure it's full of powergaming opportunities. Go ahead and give me your best... I'm still not sure about allowing the gestalt of 2 Tier 5 classes to make a Tier 4 class, which gestalts with another tier 5 class to make a tier 3. And 3 Tier 5 classes sounds fine to me... but I'm sure someone can think of a couple examples of how you could ruin the game that way.

[Iferus]

You can multigestalt all the tier 2 classes out there, and they will still only barely be tier 1. Read up on the tier descriptions.

[ranagrande]

You can multigestalt all the tier 2 classes out there, and they will still only barely be tier 1. Read up on the tier descriptions.

I must wholeheartedly disagree. Using the examples listed on the tier lists, a gestalt Sorcerer//Favored Soul//Psion//Binder is much, much better than any Tier 1 class.

[Greenish]

T4//4 or t4//t5 might make it to tier 3, depending on classes, but I don't think even t3//t3 would make it to tier 2.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

T4//4 or t4//t5 might make it to tier 3, depending on classes, but I don't think even t3//t3 would make it to tier 2.

Warblade//Factotum > t1 in low op games. That said, I agree that the major break in classes is between T2 and T3 assuming high optimization.

What I should say is I don't think this statement works in all cases, since the tier list doesn't work in all cases. At level 1, Beguilers and Warblades are at least on equal footing with Wizards; a Beguiler//Warblade would be on greater footing.

[Myth]

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are close by overall power, they only vary in versatility or useful options, or impossible cheese.

The gaps between the tiers are not identical:

T1 >>> T2 >>>>>>>> T3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>T4>>>T5

this is my way of seeing things of course. But a gestalt Factotum/Psion will be much better then a single classed Cleric for example.

[Psyren]

But a gestalt Factotum/Psion will be much better then a single classed Cleric for example.

The synergy is palpable but such comparisons are still hard to make. Better at what? The Cleric is still better at, say, summoning, or planar travel, or reviving the dead, or convincing a massive-HD Outsider with divine ranks to intervene in a pinch.

The hallmark of Tier 1 is that it can handle any situation. If one build can handle any situation 100 ways and another can handle any situation 1000 ways, there is no point in comparing them because the problem is solved either way.

[Aran Banks]

I was kind of thinking Same Game Test, really...