Bear Warrior+Wild Shape, the argument again?

[Urpriest]

I've seen it argued that the Bear Warrior's transformation into a bear (and resulting stat boosts) doesn't stack with wildshape, because they are both polymorph effects and polymorph has a no-stacking rule. Is the no-stacking referred to one of those on page 172 of the PHB (Same Effect with Differing Results or One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant), or is it another such rule?

Please keep this thread bearable until the question has been answered. After that you can let your bear natures run wild.

[Urpriest]

Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

[Nick_mi]

Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

I see what you did there.

[imperialspectre]

I think a better question than "do they stack or not?" is "why the hell would you have Druid, Barbarian, and Bear Warrior levels in the same character?"

[Nick_mi]

I think a better question than "do they stack or not?" is "why the hell would you have Druid, Barbarian, and Bear Warrior levels in the same character?"

Avengic druid with a 1 level dip into bear warrior?

[imperialspectre]

Nice, hadn't thought of that.

At any rate, I don't know of a RAW reason why the two don't stack. The alternate form text, which Wild Shape works from, specifically says that extraordinary special attacks derived from class levels are retained while in an alternate form (the example given is rage). There is nothing in the alternate form or polymorph texts to indicate that they cannot be stacked; while this may be absurd, it is also RAW-legal.

I would rule that these stack in the same way as Wild Shape stacks with the Bite of Were-Something spells in the Spell Compendium. I might (depending on the optimization level in the game) houserule that it doesn't work that way, or simply ban Wild Shape to begin with, but that's neither here nor there because the thread is about RAW.

[Coidzor]

Well, why would you want them to stack? what do you gain if they stack?

I'm not really seeing much.

Spoiler

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You'd either use up a rage to turn into a bear from whatever you were wildshaped into (possibly wasting the wildshape) or you use up a wildshape to turn into another animal rather than a bear or in addition to having turned into a bear if you wildshape after choosing to turn into a bear (as it's up to your discretion to transform when raging)...

[Wings of Peace]

Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

Please keep puns to a minimum or this thread is going to be un-bearable.

[Urpriest]

Well, why would you want them to stack? what do you gain if they stack?

I'm not really seeing much.

Spoiler

Show

You'd either use up a rage to turn into a bear from whatever you were wildshaped into (possibly wasting the wildshape) or you use up a wildshape to turn into another animal rather than a bear or in addition to having turned into a bear if you wildshape after choosing to turn into a bear (as it's up to your discretion to transform when raging)...

Turning into a bear with Bear Warrior gives bonuses to your stats, rather than replacing them, like a lycanthrope's hybrid form. The question is, can you get these bonuses on top of your wildshape stats?

And as for use, I was thinking Wildshape Ranger/Barbarian/Bear Warrior actually.

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed - Bear Warrior adds bonuses to stats, Wild shaper replaces them wholesale as Polymorph. They're polar opposites.

[Starbuck_II]

Stop that

It is unbearable the puns.
Rater than Wild shape from druid why not a disciple of Bharri? It also gives at will polymorph.

[jiriku]

While the rules might permit it, logically, I have trouble seeing how you'd continue to gain the stat boosts for being a bear once you become something other than a bear. Plus, you'd get into a furry party-balance situation if you use bear-rage, bear-wildshape and bite of the werebear all at once to become a bear-bear-werebear. AC, hit, and damage get thrown all out of whack.

[Keld Denar]

bear-bear-werebear.

How unbearable...

[bokodasu]

bear-bear-werebear

A much more dangerous version of duck-duck-goose...

[HandofCrom]

What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

[The Glyphstone]

What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

That would be the infamous Bearington Bearman the Bearbearian. An Anthromorphic Bear Were-Bear Bear Totem Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Bear Lord with a Bear Wild Cohort. And Improved Unarmed Strike, so he can kill things with his bear hands.

[Eloel]

What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

Grizzly or polar?

[The Glyphstone]

Bearington only uses Black Bear, to keep him from needing Gestalt or Epic.

[Kaeso]

Grizzly or polar?

I think it bearely makes a difference.

[Urpriest]

Just to remind people of the purpose of this thread, since I did request we delay derailing it until it was answered: does anyone here think that RAW you can't have stacking bear wildshape and bear warrior stats? If so, do you base your conclusion on the passage mentioned in the OP? I really just want a clear idea of what's being argued, and my google-fu has been insufficient to find it.

[HandofCrom]

On topic, wild shape and lycanthropcy are thr alternate form special power, though lycanthropcy includes that it adds stat bonuses instead of replacing. As a creature with multiple alternate forms, such as a vampire, cannot take more than one alternate form at a time (even though turning into a wolf-bat would be awesome), I think you cannot stack alternate forms. I'm not sure if bear warrior's ability is called alternate form, but if it is, I'd say you couldn't stack it with any other alternate form. If not, I'm not sure if you could do it.

However, if I remember correctly, bite of the werebear just provides enhancement bonuses and stacks as normal.

[Z3ro]

On topic, wild shape and lycanthropcy are thr alternate form special power, though lycanthropcy includes that it adds stat bonuses instead of replacing. As a creature with multiple alternate forms, such as a vampire, cannot take more than one alternate form at a time (even though turning into a wolf-bat would be awesome), I think you cannot stack alternate forms. I'm not sure if bear warrior's ability is called alternate form, but if it is, I'd say you couldn't stack it with any other alternate form. If not, I'm not sure if you could do it.

This. I don't have CW in front of me, but if the bear form is listed as an alternate form, I don't think they'd stack. If it's listed as a form of rage (which I think it is) then by RAW they would stack (as listed in the text of alternate form). As a DM, I'd probably rule they stack, but that's just me.

[Keld Denar]

I think he's right. While Bear Warrior's Bear Shape ability gives you bonuses instead of changing your stats to those of a bear (unlike nearly every other form of shape change OTHER than lycanthropy), it still explicitly turns you into a bear, complete with fur, claws, teeth, and grumpy disposition. The abilities you get are dependant on that form.

There are pretty clear rules on stacking muliple forms, IE they don't. If you Alter Self into a Troglodyte then Polymorph into a Troll, you lose the traits of the Trog you picked up because Polymorph supercedes Alter Self. Multiple changes to size and/or shape never stack. I don't think Bear Warrior would be an exception to that just because it gives bonuses rather than fixed abilities. It still changes your form, and its bonuses are based on the form you take.

Thats about as close to RAW as you are gonna get, methinks. If noone has any disagreements, I'd like to make a motion that we return to rediculous bear puns until the situation becomes to dire to bear.

[HandofCrom]

We could discuss astrology. What's ursine?

[Urpriest]

There are pretty clear rules on stacking muliple forms, IE they don't. If you Alter Self into a Troglodyte then Polymorph into a Troll, you lose the traits of the Trog you picked up because Polymorph supercedes Alter Self. Multiple changes to size and/or shape never stack. I don't think Bear Warrior would be an exception to that just because it gives bonuses rather than fixed abilities. It still changes your form, and its bonuses are based on the form you take.

Then please answer the question of the thread. Are those rules the ones on page 172 of the PHB, or are they not? That's all I'm trying to find out here.

[Keld Denar]

I'd say its the latter. One effect makes the other irrelevant. If you Wild Shape into a lion, then bear rage, you'll turn from a lion into a bear (skipping tiger, oh my!). As a bear, you'll have bear stats and bear attack modes. Since you are no longer a lion, you won't have lion attack modes, stats, or abilities. When your rage ends, assuming your Wild Shape is still running, you'd shift back into a lion. As a lion, you'd have the MM physical stats for a lion. As a bear, you'd have your characters base physical stats, plus the bear bonuses.

You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion and a tiger (bliger?). Order of application would then be important. If you start as a bear and become a lion, you'd be a lion. If you started as a lion and became a bear, you'd be a bear.

[nysisobli]

You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion

you sir have never heard of the legendary bion!

[Z3ro]

I'd say its the latter. One effect makes the other irrelevant. If you Wild Shape into a lion, then bear rage, you'll turn from a lion into a bear (skipping tiger, oh my!). As a bear, you'll have bear stats and bear attack modes. Since you are no longer a lion, you won't have lion attack modes, stats, or abilities. When your rage ends, assuming your Wild Shape is still running, you'd shift back into a lion. As a lion, you'd have the MM physical stats for a lion. As a bear, you'd have your characters base physical stats, plus the bear bonuses.

You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion and a tiger (bliger?). Order of application would then be important. If you start as a bear and become a lion, you'd be a lion. If you started as a lion and became a bear, you'd be a bear.

Except that bear form gives you pluses to stats, rather than replacing them, like a lycanthrope. A lycanthrope basically is a human and a wolf, for example. Bear form can be looked at like that (unless it is listed as an alternate form, then they don't stack).

[Eloel]

you sir have never heard of the legendary bion!

For convenience, people call it bison.

[jiriku]

I expect you're going to find that it's a legal RAW loophole, but killed by a fairly straightforward application of RAI. The bear warrior's ability is phrased to provide bonuses, rather than replace your stats, but it's far more than coincidence that the bonuses provided are the exact same as the racial ability score bonuses a bear receives. If you de-bear yourself by turning into something unbearish, the bonuses ought to go away. Again, that's RAI, not RAW but it's reasonable, IMO.