Final Fantasy d6 (Complete System)

[Mecharious]

Well, Comet is probably weaker than the L3 -aga spells because of weaknesses. Not playing weaknesses with a blak mage seems stupid when black mages are supposed to have some intelligence.

You won't always have the spell that an enemy is weak against. And if you do, it requires you to use up your precious spell slots to have a variety of elemental types. Comet does more damage, hits all targets, AND hits 1d6 times. There is no way a T3 black magic spell is going to do more damage than that, even with weaknesses in play.

And black mages do get Ultima. so yeah.

Which kills your party unless you spend a whopping 3 destiny points

I was trying to play an interesting character. I wanted to make a swordmage, but that turned into a black mage using Into the Fray and basically the same as the time mage.

Mind over Matter is just plain better than Into the Fray.

To make a thief uberpwn, just take feint and then assassin's kiss ten times.
Feint to lower EVA to zero and then add on 10 to the damage tier of whatever weapon you're using.

Again, you're going off-topic. First of all, I'm not talking about specific builds, I'm talking about time mages as a whole, which aren't even that similar to thieves. Second of all, the wording suggests that Feint and Assassin's kiss might not even work with eachother (being denied your EVA score vs having an effective score of 0). Third, this can only be done a limited number of times per session (less if the thief misses their feint attempt). Fourth, this goes with what I was saying how passive abilites like that shouldn't stack.

And I don't see how 45 eva is a good reward for freelancers. Because then they essentially can't get hit. I bet there are a lot of overpowered combinations that can be generated with a freelancer.

Many enemies have auto-hit abilities, and evasion doesn't help against spells or limit breaks. Again, we're going a bit off topic here.

[Adell]

I thought this entire discussion was balancing the classes.
And I'm also replying to Creed on combat thieves.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.

But I think that might make improbable weapons completely useless.

[wiimanclassic]

I thought this entire discussion was balancing the classes.
And I'm also replying to Creed on combat thieves.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.

But I think that might make improbable weapons completely useless.

What about blue mages mutation?

[Dust]

Enormous post incoming!

You might notice my tone being a little different in this post than the others; I'm not trying to be confrontational, it's just that this is the very first time I've read a suggestion/argument and didn't either agree or disagree with it outright. A lot of this thread has been 'yup, definitely needs a fix, good catch' - these are some of the very first issues that I'm not entirely certain I understand.

On an unrelated note, I think a blade's piercing strike should be 1/combat. 1/session doesn't seem to be on the same level as other weapon properties.

Here's an easy starting point. I agree.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.

It's certainly something I need to consider. It seems like the common mindset is to stack the same ability over and over in order to increase your effective weapon tier and nothing else, and then simply attack every round until things fall over. Whether effective or not, this makes for an un-fun build to actually play over the course of many months and needs to be remedied in some fashion.

They have better damage potential than black mages with their spells. Haste is incredible anyway. The combinations basically give them incredible physical combat to boot.

Mind over Matter is just plain better than Into the Fray.

So let's talk about Time Mages and Black Mages.
During the design process, we sat down and chatted about how these two different Jobs should function. You have to admit that they're awkwardly similar; in the end, I proposed that they should both be offensive casters with different styles. Black Mages have 'debuffing' capabilities as their sort of secondary role, dropping status effects and whatnot. They deal the most damage when they can exploit their enemies' elemental weaknesses. Time Mages have 'buffing' as their secondary function - as mentioned, Haste is ridiculous good for standard-action-reliant characters - and are almost exclusively nonelemental damage. Nothing is resistant to it, but nothing is weak to it either.
So in short, we wanted them to be on par; sometimes Black Mages would be the ideal caster, sometimes Time. I don't like to think of Black Mages having to 'optimize to compete,' but I certainly agree that they need to have forethought and planning where a Time Mage can simply chuck spells out and be effective.

Comet, as I mentioned way back a few pages ago, should definitely NOT be an (INT x 7) spell. I mean, you can compare that to Shockwave Pulsar and realize something is seriously wrong here. If I recall correctly, the intent was for it to be an (INT x 5). I suspect I'll also be kicking it down to 1d4 meteorites in the next update instead of 1d6. (Or something; I don't want to start introducing other polygonal dice. Blugh! ) Some quick math, then, to support that numerical change.

A Time Mage and a Black Mage find themselves in combat with several enemies; let's say 4. They're both level 14, so the Black Mage has two different rank 3 spells where the Time Mage only has Comet. They both have exactly 25 INT, and let's say, to prevent interruptions and whatnot, they each have Auto-Haste on their equipment. The enemies have 30 magic armor.
Time Mage casts Comet and rolls exactly average, resulting in about 204 points of damage to all enemies. The Black Mage uses Thundaga, dealing 166 damage to each. The damage difference is not enormous, but certainly superior. And without elemental weaknesses and damage-increasing abilities coming into play, nonelemental spells will always beat elemental spells for pure raw damage. On a perfect roll and the maximum of 4 meteorites, the Time Mage does a whopping 408 points of damage. With an elemental weakness, the Black Mage deals 425. A Black Mage who has bonus damage from Elemental Enhancer or abilities will just keep widening the gap.

I have to confess, I'm not certain I see the issues as they stand with Telekinesis/Mind over Matter. You'll have to spell it out for me.

Look at....meteor and Flare Star.

This is another example you'll have to explain to me. I don't see the significance. One is an x30 spell to a single enemy, but with varying elemental types. One is x25 to all enemies. I don't know if I'd be able to say one has a clear advantage over the other.

Also, I said they need a re-work, not a complete nerf. I mean look at their quasar spell compared to Meteo. Costs 60% of the mp and does 40% of the damage (comparatively, scourge costs around 40% of the cost of scathe and does half the damage.)

I'm not sure I understand the relevancy of this statement.

[Creed]

THE GREAT DUST HAS SPOKEN!
OBEY WITH GREATEST HASTE!

[Mecharious]

It's certainly something I need to consider. It seems like the common mindset is to stack the same ability over and over in order to increase your effective weapon tier and nothing else, and then simply attack every round until things fall over. Whether effective or not, this makes for an un-fun build to actually play over the course of many months and needs to be remedied in some fashion.

Only applying to certain abilities of course. I think some abilities can be taken multiple times if it isn't stacking, but allowing the ability to be applied more often (mutate being an okay example).

So in short, we wanted them to be on par; sometimes Black Mages would be the ideal caster, sometimes Time. I don't like to think of Black Mages having to 'optimize to compete,' but I certainly agree that they need to have forethought and planning where a Time Mage can simply chuck spells out and be effective.

Well, it's also the fact that a lot of black mages will feel they need to take multiple damaging spells a level, where the only difference is the elemental type they do. Because of this, Black Mages have less spell variety and require extra damaging spells in order to overcome immunities.

Comet, as I mentioned way back a few pages ago, should definitely NOT be an (INT x 7) spell. I mean, you can compare that to Shockwave Pulsar and realize something is seriously wrong here. If I recall correctly, the intent was for it to be an (INT x 5). I suspect I'll also be kicking it down to 1d4 meteorites in the next update instead of 1d6. Some quick math, then, to support that numerical change.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense.

I have to confess, I'm not certain I see the issues as they stand with Telekinesis/Mind over Matter. You'll have to spell it out for me.

I'm... not really sure with Telekinesis. I think I read the description wrong. Mind over Matter, however, makes it so that the Time Mage's accuracy, evasion, spell damage, weapon damage, and accuracy are all determined by the same stat. Personally, I'm not a fan of stat-stacking, and this just encourages it more.

This is another example you'll have to explain to me. I don't see the significance. One is an x30 spell to a single enemy, but with varying elemental types. One is x25 to all enemies. I don't know if I'd be able to say one has a clear advantage over the other.

That's the problem... Flare Star just seems so outclassed by Meteo. Costs more mp, will probably end up doing less damage (Flare Star will apply triple magic resistance, and I get the feeling the elemental damage will end up being more of a hinderance than a help), and it's reflectable, and only hits one target.

Now look at Meteo compared to the black mage's 5th level Scathe. Scathe does 16xINT shadow damage (the only type that can't be improved by a BM's ability - and is more difficult to enhance than the regular elements) while Meteo does a whopping 25xINT damage. If that's not enough, Meteo even costs less MP.

I'm not sure I understand the relevancy of this statement.

Quasar is just a really crappy spell that could be improved. For over half the cost of meteo, it does pitiful damage (it will end up being even *less* than 40% damage after applying MARM). It seems like Time Mages get a lot of "WTF MUST HAVE" spells in addition to spells that seem downright horrible.

I don't know, time mages just seem like... they were put in last minute or something. Errors in the spell descriptions (Comet, Meteorite) and not having a legendary accessory doesn't help. I mean, I know they were in since the beta, but they just seem to have the most problems right now.

THE GREAT DUST HAS SPOKEN!
OBEY WITH GREATEST HASTE!

As awesome as Dust is, I'm still going to do all I can to point out what I think are flaws in the system in order to improve it.

[IcarusWings]

Just for people's general information, the pbp game I am running for this system has had one player drop out due to RL issues, and one player just not post at all since it started. Meaning that, if anyone still wants to join in a game, we have two free places. If you're interested, post a character sheet in the OOC thread and we'll work you in as soon as possible.

[wiimanclassic]

Maybe 1d3 for comet. That way you can stick to a d6. Also can the stacked deck ability be used for the coin flip? Cause we use a d2(forum RP) and well it doesn't say you CAN'T do it if you use dice.

[Mecharious]

I get the feeling that using a coin was intentionally put there to prevent dice-rerolling abilities from affecting it.

[Temotei]

Excalibur is listed as a "Tier 8 Sword."

[wiimanclassic]

I get the feeling that using a coin was intentionally put there to prevent dice-rerolling abilities from affecting it.

the forum lacks coin flipping so we use dice. Abuse is cool.

[AshDesert]

Dust, thank you for putting in the time and effort required to put together this RPG system. I've already gotten one of my friends who loves FF but was reluctant about tabletop RPGs hooked on it. I love the section that gives advice on how to adapt the core rules to the worlds for different games. I also like the encouragement of descriptive combat. I've always found the "I full attack. I full attack. I full attack." combat that happens in D&D often to be pretty boring. So far, the balance issues seem extremely small in comparison to the imbalance that exists in some other systems *cough*3.5*cough*. You have created a very fun to play, easy to use and learn system that gives a great Final Fantasy feel, but that I'm definitely going to use for homebrew settings.

[Mecharious]

the forum lacks coin flipping so we use dice. Abuse is cool.

No, you're using a die to simulate a coin. If you're going to get all technical, you shouldn't be able to re-roll virtual dice anyway.

[wiimanclassic]

No, you're using a die to simulate a coin. If you're going to get all technical, you shouldn't be able to re-roll virtual dice anyway.

<.< I almost decided to make a random weapon generation table. Should I try?

Did it. You roll 1d6. For near the start just flip a coin. If your a bit farther just roll and have 1 and 2 be 1, 3 and 4 be 2, ect, ect. That is the tier. Then the gm picks 12 random abilities for the tier of it. The guy then rolls 2 d6. A result of 1 on the first one gives you a result of 1.

Get it?

[UserShadow7989]

Found a typo in the limit breaks section.

Random Target (1 or 3 Point Refund) The attack is chaotic in nature and cannot be completely controlled. For the 1 point refund, the technique targets a random enemy (or ally, if the limit break is beneficial). For the 5-point refund the target is completely random, and may be either an enemy or a friend. If combined with Area Effect, the limit break targets a random Group.

On a previous subject, have you decided what to do about the Zombie/Revive/Area Effect combo I brought up? What did you think of my suggestion to change Zombie to a level 2 status, increase revive's cost, and reduce the cost of Death Attack? [Link here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=120 ]

[CociCookie]

I've got a quick question about the Cheat Fate ability that Gamblers have. Going off it's description, I gather it can be used multiple times in succession, as long as the player has good luck/available Destiny.

I've also got a (Probably silly) question about limit breaks. As long as it's multiple characters using them, then multiple ones can be used in the same round, correct?

If so, I think I've found a way to overkill Chaos in a Single Round. Now I'm sure theres other ways, but mine takes a Monk with High STR and DEX, along with 7 Improved Arsenal abilities, a Tier 8 Brawl Weapon that has Piercing, Break Damage Limit and Holy attributes, and to top it off, a 3rd rank Limit Break that has Attack(Phys) and Multi-Attackx4.
They also need to be in a party that has a member with a limit break that has 28 points spent on Stylish, and maybe a Gambler with a bunch of luck/Destiny points to back up their attack rolls.

The strategy would be to have the Stylish limit break go off first, then followed up by the Monk's limit break, then if required the Gambler could Cheat Fate to make the attacks hit (Up to the point where he runs out of Destiny), which would result in a total of (If I've done all the calculations correctly):
5 (Attacks) x 2 (Weakness: Holy) x ( STRx2(No Armour Dual Wield bonus) x 21 (Tier 8 + 13) + 2d6)
so totalled up it would hit for 10x(STRx42+2d6) damage, which calculated off a str of 27 (The final result of my piddly HP focused monk) would hit at least 11k damage

Now that I think about it though, I guess this would follow the note that it would require perfect planning from the party to execute, as getting everyone to survive long enough and have the necessary things to do it would be difficult as hell, especially 'cause the GM's have the say in what effects would be on Legendary weapons.

I think I need to go do something else now, I've been too focused on this system for the past few days, though i have to admit it has been fun trying to see how to kill Chaos before he can pull off his limit break.

But before I go, one question i forgot. I guess VIT boosting equipment still counts towards a character's HP limit? This may be a silly question, but it doesn't say in this edition if it does or doesn't.

[Temotei]

Found a typo in the limit breaks section.

Pretty sure the ruling is that the big numbers are always right.

[Dust]

Dust, thank you for putting in the time and effort required to put together this RPG system.

WELLLLL thanks. That means a lot to me.

...have you decided what to do about the Zombie/Revive/Area Effect combo I brought up? What did you think of my suggestion to change Zombie to a level 2 status, increase revive's cost, and reduce the cost of Death Attack? [Link here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=120 ]

It's certainly something that needs to be changed, but I admit I haven't, er, gotten around to it yet. I suspect your solution is probably the best one.

I've also got a (Probably silly) question about limit breaks. As long as it's multiple characters using them, then multiple ones can be used in the same round, correct?

Correct.

If so, I think I've found a way to overkill Chaos in a Single Round.

That's pretty awesome and I gotta say, I'm impressed by the thought exercise. The only real flaw is that a Gambler wouldn't be able to support too much since you can only use Cheat Fate once per session - as with all Epic Abilities, mentioned on the first page of the job descriptions. An Entertainer would be wiser.
I honestly hadn't really sat down and looked at Monks with Martial Arts/Arsenal - that's going to have to be another thing that needs to get tweaked! But I'm pretty sure you win the award for the first theoretical Chaos kill - and bonus points for style, since it involves a Monk swinging a magically-blessed fifty-story building around.

But before I go, one question i forgot. I guess VIT boosting equipment still counts towards a character's HP limit? This may be a silly question, but it doesn't say in this edition if it does or doesn't.

It does. Recalculate your health whenever your VIT changes. VIT from armor is a temporary boost then, at best.

[UserShadow7989]

I've got a question about the Weapon of Choice Entertainer Job Ability. What's the max range on the damage? Do I have to be in striking distance of the enemy to damage it, or can I be at a Medium distance?

[DualShadow]

Can I have some explanation about Power Cord Entertainer ability, I just dont understand it.

[wiimanclassic]

So uh on another forum I'm working on a home brew setting for this. Things are moving slowly and it will most likely stink.



Anyone want updates on how it goes?

[Vauron]

Can I have some explanation about Power Cord Entertainer ability, I just dont understand it.

I'll try to explain it to you.

First, Power Cord is done as a slow action, which basicly means you start it one turn, and it happens at the start of your next turn if you are not interrupted.

Second, you roll to attack. If you succeed, than it is like you hit all of the enemies with nonelemental M. ARM. damage. The amount of damage is essentially the same as your normal attack, so for a tier 2 weapon it'd be (2 x relevant statistic) + 2d6. After that, the enemies are thrown back to a medium distance, and they are seperated from their weapons.

Finally, each of the enemies has both an ARM score and a M.ARM score of 0 until their next turn, which should cause a nice increase in damage for the rest of your team.

Is there anything particularly confusing about that?

[Creed]

Anyone seen Kobold Bard lately? He kinda ditched the game he was DMing.

[Kobold-Bard]

Anyone seen Kobold Bard lately? He kinda ditched the game he was DMing.

All my details for the game are on my laptop which is a three hour train journey away. Sorry for not posting anything but I'm not having the best time at the moment irl and couldn't motivate myself (worlds longest breakup & mega family arguments). If you still want to play when I get back then I'll be pleased but if not I understand why.

In future if you could PM this stuff I'd appreciate it.

[DualShadow]

I'll try to explain it to you.

First, Power Cord is done as a slow action, which basicly means you start it one turn, and it happens at the start of your next turn if you are not interrupted.

Second, you roll to attack. If you succeed, than it is like you hit all of the enemies with nonelemental M. ARM. damage. The amount of damage is essentially the same as your normal attack, so for a tier 2 weapon it'd be (2 x relevant statistic) + 2d6. After that, the enemies are thrown back to a medium distance, and they are seperated from their weapons.

Finally, each of the enemies has both an ARM score and a M.ARM score of 0 until their next turn, which should cause a nice increase in damage for the rest of your team.

Is there anything particularly confusing about that?

Thx, all make sense now.

[Dust]

So uh on another forum I'm working on a home brew setting for this. Things are moving slowly and it will most likely stink.
Anyone want updates on how it goes?

Absolutely!

Also; Good summary, Vauron.

[Unrest]

Tell me, Dust, what program did you use to create the .pdf for this game?

[wiimanclassic]

Ok the plot of an FF4 game is going slowly. Haven't even gotten to the first boss.


On the other hand the world building project is going ok.



Maybe we should make a sig addon for this to help advertise it.

[Temotei]

Maybe we should make a sig addon for this to help advertise it.

I highly recommend that. Any familiar with Phoenix Magazine will know that I resized the Phoenix logo Djinn_In_Tonic made to go into signatures. That garnered a lot of interest, along with colored text like flames.

Unfortunately, Phoenix had some legal trouble. It's unlikely to rise above those, in case anyone was wondering in here. I doubt you'll have the same problem, though.

[Unrest]

Unfortunately, Phoenix had some legal trouble. It's unlikely to rise above those, in case anyone was wondering in here. I doubt you'll have the same problem, though.

Yeah, were kinda wondering about that. Frankly, I'd gravitate towards thinking you actually backed out too quickly of the whole thing. I know the wizards are a devious power to begin fiddling with, but I guess the most you'd get if you actually did start to would be a cease and desist. If you got anything and any attention, that is. And yet to circumvent this possibility, there has always been the - admittedly less appealing - option to make it in a threaded form here. <end offtopic, PM with bashing & lashing>